Genesis for Normal People

[SelfSim]

You are confused, Dan.

You are seriously confused.

Why do you assert that?

 

[AV1611VET]

I gave up nothing.

Then you weren't saved in the first place.

 

[AV1611VET]

Why do you assert that?

Did you see his posts I referenced?

1. I was an active [C]hristian for fifteen years of my life.
2. I never met Christ.

All Christians meet Christ.

 

[SelfSim]

Did you see his posts I referenced?

1. I was an active [C]hristian for fifteen years of my life.
2. I never met Christ.

All Christians meet Christ.

Figuratively, or metaphorically, perhaps(?)
Physically; not possible, if we're talking about the historically significant person.

Does that expel accusations of confusion?

 

[Hans Blaster]

Then you weren't saved in the first place.

Whoever said that I claimed I was. Not even sure what that means.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Then you weren't saved in the first place.

No True Scotsman. Haven't seen that one in a while.

 

[AV1611VET]

No True Scotsman. Haven't seen that one in a while.

This is what a person claiming to be an ex-Christian sounds like:

Johnny goes to the amusement park and rides the rides: roller coaster, tilt-a-whirl, water rides, you name it.

He has the time of his life, enjoying every minute of it.

But at the end of the day, he's had enough and is ready to go home.

At home, dad asks Johnny how he enjoyed it.

"Enjoyed what," Johnny asks.

 

[AV1611VET]

Whoever said that I claimed I was. Not even sure what that means.

So you were a pretender?

 

[Bungle_Bear]

This is what a person claiming to be an ex-Christian sounds like:

Johnny goes to the amusement park and rides the rides: roller coaster, tilt-a-whirl, water rides, you name it.

He has the time of his life, enjoying every minute of it.

But at the end of the day, he's had enough and is ready to go home.

At home, dad asks Johnny how he enjoyed it.

"Enjoyed what," Johnny asks.

Not really, but it suits you to misrepresent reality to make you feel better.

If you want to use your analogy it would be more like Johnny going to Disneyland and finding out it's actually a kids' playground with broken swings and a rusty slide. The advertised rides are not there, and what is there is not satisfactory.

 

[AV1611VET]

Not really, but it suits you to misrepresent reality to make you feel better.

If you want to use your analogy it would be more like Johnny going to Disneyland and finding out it's actually a kids' playground with broken swings and a rusty slide. The advertised rides are not there, and what is there is not satisfactory.

And just out of curiosity, how long were you at Disneyland?

 

[Hans Blaster]

So you were a pretender?

No I was a Catholic. Never heard any talk of a moment where one could be "saved" and be free of all consequences, particularly of future deeds. "Confess your sins -- be absolved for them", sure, but not permanent absolution. What would be the point of judgement day otherwise?

"Once saved, always saved" is your religion, not what was mine. The sooner you realize this the less unpleasant you will be.

 

[Hans Blaster]

And just out of curiosity, how long were you at Disneyland?

Once, about 12 hours. It was OK.

 

[AV1611VET]

No I was a Catholic.

Well, that explains it then.

Let's see if I got this straight:

1. born
2. baptized as an infant
3. grew up being told you were a Christian
4. took the sacraments all your life, so you wouldn't lose your salvation
5. got disillusioned
6. left the Catholic church
7. now claim you left Christianity

Is that about it?

Never heard any talk of a moment where one could be "saved" and be free of all consequences, particularly of future deeds.

Makes sense now.

You have seven sacraments to perform for the rest of your life to keep your salvation; lest you'll lose it and end up in either Purgatory for venial sins, or Hell for mortal ones.

Eternal Security would be a little out of your league then, wouldn't it?

"Confess your sins -- be absolved for them", sure, but not permanent absolution.

Yup -- buy those indulgences, baptize yourself for the dead, pray a loved one out of Purgatory.

It all makes sense now.

What would be the point of judgement day otherwise?

To determine your address in Heaven.

You know? some people say they'll live in a shack; others look forward to a mansion.

It all depends on how you lived you life down here.

It's the "wood, hay, stubble vs gold, silver, precious gems" doctrine.

"Once saved, always saved" is your religion, not what was mine.

I'm more interested in the benefits you turned your back on, when you said you left the Christian faith.

The sooner you realize this the less unpleasant you will be.

I don't mean to be unpleasant.

I just have a low tolerance for those who hide behind a clipboard and call God everything but what He said He is.

 

[AV1611VET]

Once, about 12 hours. It was OK.

Ya -- that's about right.

I have a feeling -- and I don't like it -- that Disneyland is about the closest you've been to Heaven so far, so far as euphoria goes.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Well, that explains it then.

Let's see if I got this straight:

1. born
2. baptized as an infant
3. grew up being told you were a Christian
4. took the sacraments all your life, so you wouldn't lose your salvation
5. got disillusioned
6. left the Catholic church
7. now claim you left Christianity

Is that about it?
Makes sense now.

Close, but not quite. For #3, I would say that I grew up being told that God was real and Jesus was our savior, etc.

I'm not sure if "disillusioned" is the right word. It's not a bad word, but it is more that I came to no longer find the claims of the Church to be plausible or believable. (And no it wasn't the "Catholic" parts that I found unbelievable, it was the same parts shared in your version of the religion.)

And leaving Catholicism for non-belief *IS* leaving Christianity.

You have seven sacraments to perform for the rest of your life to keep your salvation; lest you'll lose it and end up in either Purgatory for venial sins, or Hell for mortal ones.

Eternal Security would be a little out of your league then, wouldn't it?

If you say so. I never did quiet figure out the afterlife notions.

And you're just wrong about "the sacraments". 5 of the 7 are "one time only" with two of those being (almost always) mutually exclusive: marriage and holy orders. The only ones you do over and over are communion and confession.

Yup -- buy those indulgences, baptize yourself for the dead, pray a loved one out of Purgatory.

It all makes sense now.

Never bought an indulgence. This isn't the Middle Ages.

No one baptizes yourself, or baptizes the dead.

(Just some more anti-Catholic tropes.)

To determine your address in Heaven.

You know? some people say they'll live in a shack; others look forward to a mansion.

It all depends on how you lived you life down here.

It's the "wood, hay, stubble vs gold, silver, precious gems" doctrine.

Can't say I ever gave a slightest thought to the nature of 'heaven', nor do I recall any talk about levels of it.

I'm more interested in the benefits you turned your back on, when you said you left the Christian faith.

What benefits? The Church offered no tangible benefits only empty promises and wasted time.

And since if as you claim "It all makes sense now." you, would stop using this "turned my back" phrasing. It wasn't a choice, it was a realization. The realization that the whole thing was a human construction and that I didn't believe the supernatural claims. That realization was useful, since I was no longer making excuses for the supernaturalism of the Church while rejecting it elsewhere. Finally, personal consistency.

I used to be a Christian, but I'm feeling much better now.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

And just out of curiosity, how long were you at Disneyland?

Long enough to drink the kool-aid and seriously consider training as a missionary.

 

[AV1611VET]

Long enough to drink the kool-aid and seriously consider training as a missionary.

Were you called by God to be a missionary?

 

[Astrophile]

Yeah who was timing the light as it took 20,000 years to get here? How did they know it was coming in the first place?

It isn't a matter of timing the light. For a distant star cluster, one can use photometry of the stars to construct an H-R diagram (a luminosity-colour diagram) of the cluster, and then fit the main-sequence to the main-sequences of the H-R diagrams of nearby clusters whose distances have been measured by parallax. This is essentially the method of standard candles. Professional astronomers measure distances in parsecs (1 parsec = 206,265 AU), and these distance are changed to light-years (1 light-year = 0.3066 parsecs) in popular astronomy books.

 

[Hans Blaster]

It isn't a matter of timing the light. For a distant star cluster, one can use photometry of the stars to construct an H-R diagram (a luminosity-colour diagram) of the cluster, and then fit the main-sequence to the main-sequences of the H-R diagrams of nearby clusters whose distances have been measured by parallax. This is essentially the method of standard candles. Professional astronomers measure distances in parsecs (1 parsec = 206,265 AU), and these distance are changed to light-years (1 light-year = 0.3066 parsecs) in popular astronomy books.

Shorter version @BNR32FAN -- it's all just geometry, no need to leave the solar system to measure the distance to the star, or track the light beam.

 

[Mr Laurier]

You are confused, Dan.

You are seriously confused.

I am? About what?
Please tell me, in what way am I "confused"?

I'm always astonished that creationists seem to know more about me than I do.