Genesis chapter 1 and reality

[DanielGillan]

Genesis Chapter 1 (KJV) verses 6-8
' And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midts of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
And God made the firmament and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. '

This passage confused me for quite some time. Understanding comes when you truly believe it. The word firmament comes from the Hebrew for expansion, as verified in the footnotes. So you can interchange the word firmament for expansion without affecting the meaning in any way whatsoever. The waters which were under the firmament, are the same waters which make up our planet now. (Make note of the use of the past tense were). The waters which were above the firmament were incorporated into heaven, and possibly still are being.
This means that there is now more waters inside (under) the expansion (firmament) than there was when god created it. By simple reasoning there must be less outside (above) the firmament.

Scientists have proven that the universe is expanding. It always pleases me, when scientists prove something that Moses knew several thousand years in advance, just because God told him.

The time to create it all was 6 days to God, the universe is 13.75 (+-0.13) Giga years old (13750000000). The earth is 4.54 Giga years old, now if we assume Gods day off started around 4000 years BC, and our measurement of 24 hour time was only made possible on the 5th day, by the creation of the sun, moon, and stars, it's fair to say 4.54 Giga years is close to 2 of Gods days. So, 6 days is around 13.62 Giga years, which is bang on the limit of the margin of error for the age of the universe !
There's no way Moses could have worked that out at the time God told him what to write.
Sorry for my mistake, God made the Sun on the 4th day, I had forgotten. Maths still works out though, just end of 4th day instead of start of 5th.

 

[Jpark]

No it wasn't 6 days to God. It was acceleration by millions and billions of years, fast forwarded. If the earth's spin was speeded up, that would have an adverse impact. If the sun's aging was speeded up, that would have an adverse impact. Have you watched Aftermath? Then you'll see what I mean. For example, look at 2 Peter 3:10, Job 34:14-15, and Job 18:4. Clearly the earth will end by the sun as expected. Only it will be accelerated.

So what if the universe's creation was speeded up? That fits in with Genesis 1:2: The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep...

God speeded up creation and established order from adverse conditions.

The waters which were under the firmament, are the same waters which make up our planet now. (Make note of the use of the past tense were). The waters which were above the firmament were incorporated into heaven, and possibly still are being.
This means that there is now more waters inside (under) the expansion (firmament) than there was when god created it. By simple reasoning there must be less outside (above) the firmament.

What about this

2 Peter 3:5-6 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.

Psalm 148:4 Praise Him, heavens of heavens, And the waters that are above the heavens!

The waters are no longer there. Because they were used up in the Flood.

Also notice Psalm 148:3 then read Gen. 1:14-16.

Praise Him, sun and moon;
Praise Him, all stars of light!

Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also.

 

[Girder of Loins]

I'm pretty sure this belongs in "origins", but that's for a mod to decide.

Can you give evidence for the earth being so old? Or will you just leave it to simple assertions?

 

[mikemack]

I'm pretty sure this belongs in "origins", but that's for a mod to decide.

Can you give evidence for the earth being so old? Or will you just leave it to simple assertions?

It includes some assumptions. Honestly I think its one of those things we spend too much time discussing. Whether it was six literal or figurative days is irrelevant isn't it? Its one of those things that no one will ever be able to prove in either way...so why are we trying?

 

[Girder of Loins]

It includes some assumptions. Honestly I think its one of those things we spend too much time discussing. Whether it was six literal or figurative days is irrelevant isn't it? Its one of those things that no one will ever be able to prove in either way...so why are we trying?

I can prove it, but I'm just deciding to go a different route here. I like evidence, not just assertions. If you want proof, wait till tomorrow, cuz I already spent one hour on one post, and I want to go to bed!

 

[Jpark]

It includes some assumptions. Honestly I think its one of those things we spend too much time discussing. Whether it was six literal or figurative days is irrelevant isn't it? Its one of those things that no one will ever be able to prove in either way...so why are we trying?

2 Tim. 2:25 applies in all situations. It's the approach that matters. There needs to be a balance between gentleness and aggression.

 

[granpa]

the 'expanse of shamim' is the atmospheric shield that protects us from the meteorites that rain down on us.

 

[DanielGillan]

I have a Masters degree in physics, and you probably wouldn't understand the proof. We can date the universe, the Earth, and the sun. You can readily find this information online. The expansion of the universe is also proven, these are real physically measurable proofs. However if we take the firmament (expansion) as the point of origin of the universe, it changes the maths, and a day becomes around 2.75 Giga years, and the sun was created 0.96 Giga years into the 5th day. Interestingly, the sun is about the same age as the earth.
Oh, and God rested on the seventh day! If you don't believe the bible, why profess to believe it ?

 

[granpa]

yes the firmament can also be spacetime created by the big bang itself

teh firmament forms the surface of a 4D hypersphere.
There may be 4D people walking around on it right now.

 

[cupid dave]

No it wasn't 6 days to God.

It was acceleration by millions and billions of years, fast forwarded. I

Right.
The SOLAR CLOCK was not yet set to ticking until Gen 1:14, when God MADE the Sun authority over the rime measured on Earth.

The Hebrew word used for the seven days was yowm, meaning any appropriate duration of time:

 

[cupid dave]

I have a Masters degree in physics, and you probably wouldn't understand the proof. We can date the universe, the Earth, and the sun.

You can readily find this information online.

Here is the break down on the SEVEN ERAS:



THE CLOCK USED IN GENESIS ONE:

 

[granpa]

By em3ryguy at 2011-09-11

 

[Huram Abi]

Here is the break down on the SEVEN ERAS:

Still kowtowing to numerology and idolizing the god of Sevens, I see.

Here is the correct timeline with Eons and Eras properly labeled, referenced and given proper relational designation:

As we can see, there is a larger number of eras than 7. Not shown is the 4 eras in the Hadean Eon. Here is a pictoral representation of those eras:

Taking these into consideration, the eras of the geological timescale are greater than 10. There is no reason to force them into an unrealistic and improperly labeled "7 era model." Especially one that mismatches eons and eras and leaves out a great amount of information to meet a personal numerical target.

 

[mikemack]

I can prove it, but I'm just deciding to go a different route here. I like evidence, not just assertions. If you want proof, wait till tomorrow, cuz I already spent one hour on one post, and I want to go to bed!

Saying you can prove that the universe is billions of years old is like me saying I can build a computer program that will never crash. It's great in theory but things rarely work well in reality.

I mean we can barely figure out if it's going to rain today but we're expected to believe we have the history of the universe mapped out for billions and billions of years.

Now if you can point out some Biblical evidence where it specifies the time it took to create the universe I wouldn't mind seeing it. But it would be just a curiosity thing more than anything. I'm not against the idea of the universe taking longer to create, I just think it's one of those things that isn't worth thinking about.

 

[DanielGillan]

I'm amazed, you don't understand quite frankly, why be so sceptical that one of gods days is in excess of 24 hours, we are used to talking about 1 year = 7 dog years. Also if you check out the era timelines of the earth you quite clearly see the animals are being introduced in the 6th day i.e. in the last 2.7 Giga years, and the age of the planet itself is also quite clearly in the 5th day. The age of the sun is around the age of the planet, "The Sun was formed about 4.57 billion years ago".
As for biblical evidence, you need look no further than Genesis chapter 1. Also regardless of what you believe, the sheer fact that we can measure things, like the rate of expansion of the universe, and that when you divide the measured age of the universe into the 5 days since the expansion was created, the sun winds up being as old as the fifth day. I kinda like the coincidence !
Also, the computer you are going to write the program on wouldn't exist without the physical reality we as physicists study, measure, and prove.

 

[Girder of Loins]

Saying you can prove that the universe is billions of years old is like me saying I can build a computer program that will never crash. It's great in theory but things rarely work well in reality.

I mean we can barely figure out if it's going to rain today but we're expected to believe we have the history of the universe mapped out for billions and billions of years.

Now if you can point out some Biblical evidence where it specifies the time it took to create the universe I wouldn't mind seeing it. But it would be just a curiosity thing more than anything. I'm not against the idea of the universe taking longer to create, I just think it's one of those things that isn't worth thinking about.

You misunderstand me. I am a young earth creationist asking for evidence, both Biblical and scientific, that the universe is dated so old.

 

[mikemack]

I'm amazed, you don't understand quite frankly, why be so sceptical that one of gods days is in excess of 24 hours, we are used to talking about 1 year = 7 dog years. Also if you check out the era timelines of the earth you quite clearly see the animals are being introduced in the 6th day i.e. in the last 2.7 Giga years, and the age of the planet itself is also quite clearly in the 5th day. The age of the sun is around the age of the planet, "The Sun was formed about 4.57 billion years ago".
As for biblical evidence, you need look no further than Genesis chapter 1. Also regardless of what you believe, the sheer fact that we can measure things, like the rate of expansion of the universe, and that when you divide the measured age of the universe into the 5 days since the expansion was created, the sun winds up being as old as the fifth day. I kinda like the coincidence !
Also, the computer you are going to write the program on wouldn't exist without the physical reality we as physicists study, measure, and prove.

Why so positive that it didn't just happen in 6 actual days that were accelerated( or something similar)? Please understand its not that I don't give the idea merit, it's just that I don't think saying you're sure that's how it happened will ever be possible.

 

[Huram Abi]

I'm amazed, you don't understand quite frankly, why be so sceptical that one of gods days is in excess of 24 hours, we are used to talking about 1 year = 7 dog years. Also if you check out the era timelines of the earth you quite clearly see the animals are being introduced in the 6th day i.e. in the last 2.7 Giga years, and the age of the planet itself is also quite clearly in the 5th day. The age of the sun is around the age of the planet, "The Sun was formed about 4.57 billion years ago".
As for biblical evidence, you need look no further than Genesis chapter 1. Also regardless of what you believe, the sheer fact that we can measure things, like the rate of expansion of the universe, and that when you divide the measured age of the universe into the 5 days since the expansion was created, the sun winds up being as old as the fifth day. I kinda like the coincidence !
Also, the computer you are going to write the program on wouldn't exist without the physical reality we as physicists study, measure, and prove.

A physicist, eh?

Congratulations!

Where did you get your degree?

 

[timbo3]

At Genesis 1:6-8, the second "creative" day begins, saying: "Let an expanse (Hebrew ra·qi´a‛, rendered as "atmosphere" by the online interlinear Scripture4all ) come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters."

Jehovah God now proceeds "to make a division between the waters that should be beneath the expanse and the waters that should be above the expanse."(verse 7) God caused a separating of "the waters" to occur so that there could be "waters" both above and below the "expanse", which Jehovah God called "Heaven"(verse 8), preparing the "expanse" to have the right mixture of nitrogen (78%), oxygen (21%), carbon dioxide (0.4%) and the remaining inert gases to later sustain life.

The Greek Septuagint used the word ste·re´o·ma (meaning “a firm and solid structure”) to translate the Hebrew ra·qi´a‛, and the Latin Vulgate used the Latin term firmamentum, which also conveys the idea of something solid and firm. The King James Version, the Revised Standard Version, and many others follow suit in translating ra·qi´a‛ by the word “firmament.” However, in its marginal reading the King James Version gives the alternate reading “expansion,” and the American Standard Version gives “expanse” in its footnote.

At this time, the earth was covered by an immense watery canopy, like a warm thermal blanket, that shielded the earth from much of the solar radiation and kept the entire earth a stable comfortable temperature, even at the polar regions. These "waters....above the expanse" are what fell when God caused the global flood of Noah's day and of which now make up the oceans.

The sun was not "created" on the 4th "creative" day, for Genesis 1:1 says that "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth", which included our sun. At Genesis 1:3, it expresses that "God proceeded to say: "Let light come to be". Then there came to be light".

The Hebrew word here for "light" is ohr, meaning the light in a general sense whereas at Genesis 1:14-16, the Hebrew word changes to ma·’ohr', which means the source of the light (luminaries).

Rotherham, in a footnote on “Luminaries” in the Emphasised Bible, says: “In ver. 3, ’ôr [’ohr], light diffused.” Then he goes on to show that the Hebrew word ma·’ohr´ in verse 14 means something “affording light.” On the first “day” (Gen 1:3) diffused light evidently penetrated the swaddling bands, but the sources of that light could not have been seen by an earthly observer because of the cloud layers still enveloping the earth. Now, on this fourth “day,” things apparently changed.

An atmosphere initially rich in carbon dioxide may have caused an earth-wide hot climate. But the lush growth of vegetation during the third and fourth creative periods would absorb some of this heat-retaining blanket of carbon dioxide. The vegetation, in turn, would release oxygen—a requirement for animal life.

The earth was being prepared for Jehovah God's final act of creation on the earth - humans.(Gen 1:26) That this is to be true forever, Isaiah 45:18 says: "For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the [true] God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited: “I am Jehovah, and there is no one else." And king David wrote that "the righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it."(Ps 37:29)

 

[Huram Abi]

At this time, the earth was covered by an immense watery canopy, like a warm thermal blanket, that shielded the earth from much of the solar radiation and kept the entire earth a stable comfortable temperature, even at the polar regions. These "waters....above the expanse" are what fell when God caused the global flood of Noah's day and of which now make up the oceans.



An atmosphere initially rich in carbon dioxide may have caused an earth-wide hot climate. But the lush growth of vegetation during the third and fourth creative periods would absorb some of this heat-retaining blanket of carbon dioxide. The vegetation, in turn, would release oxygen—a requirement for animal life.

While I can appreciate that this is quite creative in it's explanatory power, this is purely science fiction. You know that right?