Genesis chapter 1 and reality

[DanielGillan]

got my masters in physics in 2000 A.D. at the University of Kent at Canterbury. Thanks for pointing out the sun moon and stars were made on the fourth day, I had forgotten, and thought they were on the fifth. The margins for error quite probably allow for the Sun to be placed right at the end of the fourth day.

Yes Genesis begins with in the beginning god created the heavens and the earth, but then goes on to list the creations in order . Day 1 Light, Day 2 Firmament, Day 3 plants, Day 4 Sun moon and stars, Day 5 fish and birds, Day 6 the land animals and man.

God made man in Gods image, God says the truth will set you free. In Physics we deal with proving things, like the big bang theory is still a theory, we can disprove it easily. The inequality of matter/antimatter is the simplest disproof. Gravity on the other hand is no longer theory, it is well understood, measurable, and proven fact. Truth can always be proven fact.

It takes time to create things, it then takes time to build the parts, then assemble them.
Assembling them in the right order is essential, this is understood to be true. If religion does not accept proven facts, nobody will truly believe. God is a God of truth, knowledge is a good thing.

So I recon the Sun fried all the plantlife, giving a good amount of nutrients for the forthcoming population. God then introduced the creations in order of the fossil records.

 

[cupid dave]

Still kowtowing to numerology and idolizing the god of Sevens, I see.

Here is the correct timeline with Eons and Eras properly labeled, referenced and given proper relational designation:

As we can see, there is a larger number of eras than 7. Not shown is the 4 eras in the Hadean Eon. Here is a pictoral representation of those eras:

Taking these into consideration, the eras of the geological timescale are greater than 10. There is no reason to force them into an unrealistic and improperly labeled "7 era model." Especially one that mismatches eons and eras and leaves out a great amount of information to meet a personal numerical target.

You confuse yourself by the semantics rather than lookung at the rocks, of which, there are exactly six layers.

What was initially called the Phanerozoic "eon" was an attempt to separate the rocks which had signs of life trapped inside from those which did not.

But in time, with better tools, they discovered that this is artificial since there are signs of life in all the layers except the Hadean.

Nevertheless, the tradition continues.

This is because eon means billions of years old.
So they divide the sic layers into four set of rocks that are each denominated in billions of years.


To an extent, the Graphic CLASSIFICATION depends on who you ask and what you ask.

The three earliest rock layers are usually distinguished from the three later rock layers.

The former are part of a group called the Precambrian.
The latter are in a group of three called the Phanerozoic

 

[Huram Abi]

got my masters in physics in 2000 A.D. at the University of Kent at Canterbury. Thanks for pointing out the sun moon and stars were made on the fourth day, I had forgotten, and thought they were on the fifth. The margins for error quite probably allow for the Sun to be placed right at the end of the fourth day.

Yes Genesis begins with in the beginning god created the heavens and the earth, but then goes on to list the creations in order . Day 1 Light, Day 2 Firmament, Day 3 plants, Day 4 Sun moon and stars, Day 5 fish and birds, Day 6 the land animals and man.

God made man in Gods image, God says the truth will set you free. In Physics we deal with proving things, like the big bang theory is still a theory, we can disprove it easily. The inequality of matter/antimatter is the simplest disproof. Gravity on the other hand is no longer theory, it is well understood, measurable, and proven fact. Truth can always be proven fact.

It takes time to create things, it then takes time to build the parts, then assemble them.
Assembling them in the right order is essential, this is understood to be true. If religion does not accept proven facts, nobody will truly believe. God is a God of truth, knowledge is a good thing.

So I recon the Sun fried all the plantlife, giving a good amount of nutrients for the forthcoming population. God then introduced the creations in order of the fossil records.

You don't find it problematic that plants were created before the sun, yet the earth, itself, is a by-product of the formation of the sun?

The anachronism seems to me an absolute impossibility. Surely do you don't believe that plants formed out of nothing and were just hanging in space without the earth to ground them and then the sun was formed?

I prefer to think of the creation story as an allegory since it simply cannot be reconciled with the known science that plants require sunlight and these other obvious problems.

I certainly do agree that if reliegion doesn't accept proven facts, like that of birds being evolved dinosaurs (land animals) and recognize that it can't compete as an alternative literal hypothesis to these proven facts, then religion is doomed to extinction.

 

[Huram Abi]

You confuse yourself by the semantics rather than lookung at the rocks, of which, there are exactly six layers.

What was initially called the Phanerozoic "eon" was an attempt to separate the rocks which had signs of life trapped inside from those which did not.

But in time, with better tools, they discovered that this is artificial since there are signs of life in all the layers except the Hadean.

Nevertheless, the tradition continues.

This is because eon means billions of years old.
So they divide the sic layers into four set of rocks that are each denominated in billions of years.

This is the geological divisions that paleontologists use.

There is no "but in time." They still recognize and use the Phanerozoic Eon.

Your "six layers" claim has been debunked numerous times by several people now, but you just keep crying "wolf."

We're learning now just to ignore you.

 

[cupid dave]

got my masters in physics in 2000 A.D. at the University of Kent at Canterbury. Thanks for pointing out the sun moon and stars were made on the fourth day, I had forgotten, and thought they were on the fifth.

Do not confuse what is written to mean "created' on the fourth "day."

The Sun, moon, and stars were MADE the authority over Solar Time and Sidereal Time.

Gen. 1:16 And “God,” MADE ([Hebrew: asah] = authority over, assigned] two great lights (by which He ordained Solar Time); the greater light to RULE the day, and the lesser light to RULE the night: he made the stars also (to reign over the Sidereal clock).

Gen. 1:14 And God, (Reality), said, Let there be (Sidereal Time), lights in the firmament of the heaven, (for the reason) to divide the (12 hour) day from the (12 hour) night; and let them be for (the purpose of) signs, (astronomical, symbolic references), and for (the purpose to designate) times, (the four seasons), and for (the 24 hour period to be called) days, (the "day" of 24 hours as distinguished from the ”days” of long Eras), and years (of 365 day):

 

[Huram Abi]

Do not confuse what is written to mean "created' on the fourth "day.'

The Sun, moon, and stars were MADE the authority over Solar Time and Sidereal Time.

Is this the "semantics" problem you were warning me about?

 

[DanielGillan]

I mean, if you divide the age of the universe by 6, and then consider when the sun was formed, i.e. 13.75/6 = 2.29 , age of sun = 4.57 , approximately. 2.29x2 = 4.58 , which is pretty close, and within the margin of error for being at the end of the fourth day. If God didn't make the sun on the fourth day, and made it on the first, it would be 13.75 Giga years old. We know it is around 4.57 Giga years old.

To imagine that the earth was not in existence before the sun is very freaky, the Earth has every single stable element that can exist, and we create some more that don't exist for longer than pico seconds, water in it's triple state (ice water steam), while our sun fuses Hydrogen into Helium !

I don't like to say the bible means something completely different to what is written, as that is contrary to belief. You believe it or you don't. We know, and can prove that there was light which then expanded, it's why the big bang theory was created. What the big bang theory lacks is substance, it falls down due to the fact that electromagnetic radiation always creates antimatter and matter in equal quantities, which then annihilate, to produce more radiation. These are facts, absolute truths, to refuse to believe the truth is plain stupid.

So Science has proven that fist there was light, which then expanded. First 2 days of creation according to Genesis. The age of the Sun fits pretty much bang on with the end of the fourth day, dividing the age of the universe into 6 ! Also if you check out the planets timeline for life which people have so eagerly posted you see that it turns up during the 5th day , i.e. within the last 4.5 Giga years, and sooner than the last 2.29.

p.s. Ever seen a plant growing under artificial lights ? now imagine somebody drops a napalm bomb in the room.

 

[timbo3]

While I can appreciate that this is quite creative in it's explanatory power, this is purely science fiction. You know that right?

Nothing in the Bible is science fiction, but the six "creative" days prepared the earth for God's final act of creation - humans. We are now living during the "seventh day" (Gen 2:3), so that when it ends in about a thousand years, God's original purpose for the earth will have been fulfilled.

At Isaiah 55:10, 11, our Creator, Jehovah God, said that "just as the pouring rain descends, and the snow, from the heavens and does not return to that place, unless it actually saturates the earth and makes it produce and sprout, and seed is given to the sower and bread to the eater, so my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it."

At that time, the earth will have become a paradise, having "certain success in that for which I have sent it." God laid the foundation of the earth "in the beginning".(Gen 1:1; Isa 51:13) Then, over the course of six "creative" days, with each "day" several thousand years long, he made ready for the arrival of the first man and woman (Gen 2:7, 22), creating the earth and its marvelous eco-system out of love.(1 John 4:8)

Proverbs 3:19 says that "Jehovah himself in wisdom founded the earth." Thus, when the "seventh day" is completed, the entire earth (and not just the Garden of Eden) will be just perfect for human habitation, those who are called "meek" by Jehovah God.(Ps 37:11, 29) As Genesis 1:31 says at the end of the 6th "creative" day, that "after that God saw everything he had made and look ! it was very good."

 

[Huram Abi]

Nothing in the Bible is science fiction, but the six "creative" days prepared the earth for God's final act of creation - humans. We are now living during the "seventh day" (Gen 2:3), so that when it ends in about a thousand years, God's original purpose for the earth will have been fulfilled.

I never said the bible is science fiction. I said that your explanation regarding the physical world and the events you gave were.

Lush vegetation creating the oxygen for animals, for example.

 

[Son of Zadok]

got my masters in physics in 2000 A.D. at the University of Kent at Canterbury. Thanks for pointing out the sun moon and stars were made on the fourth day, I had forgotten, and thought they were on the fifth. The margins for error quite probably allow for the Sun to be placed right at the end of the fourth day.

Yes Genesis begins with in the beginning god created the heavens and the earth, but then goes on to list the creations in order . Day 1 Light, Day 2 Firmament, Day 3 plants, Day 4 Sun moon and stars, Day 5 fish and birds, Day 6 the land animals and man.

God made man in Gods image, God says the truth will set you free. In Physics we deal with proving things, like the big bang theory is still a theory, we can disprove it easily. The inequality of matter/antimatter is the simplest disproof. Gravity on the other hand is no longer theory, it is well understood, measurable, and proven fact. Truth can always be proven fact.

It takes time to create things, it then takes time to build the parts, then assemble them.
Assembling them in the right order is essential, this is understood to be true. If religion does not accept proven facts, nobody will truly believe. God is a God of truth, knowledge is a good thing.

So I recon the Sun fried all the plantlife, giving a good amount of nutrients for the forthcoming population. God then introduced the creations in order of the fossil records.

It is always interesting for me to discuss religion and physics with a fellow religionist and physicist. Before proceeding I would like to know your views on the following:

Do you understand or accept chaos theory and fractal mathematics as valid models of complex (rough) systems?

Do you understand (or at least accept) the concept of fractals as a means of defining the expansion patters of the universe and spatial interactions of mater and dark matter in space time?

Have you studied much of the ancient Egyptian concept of the creation => realizing that Moses was a prince of ancient Egypt and thus obviously educated and expert in ancient Egyptian creation theory - do you find interesting parallels? For example the ancient Egyptian concept of creation from watery abyss? And fractal analyses of water as a fundamental element?

Also considering your final statement - can you explain why trees (especially trees bearing fruit) existed on day 3 prior to sunlight - especially if sunlight was at the end of day 4?

Son of Zadok

 

[Jpark]

I mean, if you divide the age of the universe by 6, and then consider when the sun was formed, i.e. 13.75/6 = 2.29 , age of sun = 4.57 , approximately. 2.29x2 = 4.58 , which is pretty close, and within the margin of error for being at the end of the fourth day. If God didn't make the sun on the fourth day, and made it on the first, it would be 13.75 Giga years old. We know it is around 4.57 Giga years old.

To imagine that the earth was not in existence before the sun is very freaky, the Earth has every single stable element that can exist, and we create some more that don't exist for longer than pico seconds, water in it's triple state (ice water steam), while our sun fuses Hydrogen into Helium !

I don't like to say the bible means something completely different to what is written, as that is contrary to belief. You believe it or you don't. We know, and can prove that there was light which then expanded, it's why the big bang theory was created. What the big bang theory lacks is substance, it falls down due to the fact that electromagnetic radiation always creates antimatter and matter in equal quantities, which then annihilate, to produce more radiation. These are facts, absolute truths, to refuse to believe the truth is plain stupid.

So Science has proven that fist there was light, which then expanded. First 2 days of creation according to Genesis. The age of the Sun fits pretty much bang on with the end of the fourth day, dividing the age of the universe into 6 ! Also if you check out the planets timeline for life which people have so eagerly posted you see that it turns up during the 5th day , i.e. within the last 4.5 Giga years, and sooner than the last 2.29.

p.s. Ever seen a plant growing under artificial lights ? now imagine somebody drops a napalm bomb in the room.

What about the moon? I saw a documentary yesterday that said that earth without the moon would produce strange creatures and would look chaotic or something.

Speaking of which, might I have been wrong thinking 'the rock' in this verse refers to the earth?

Job 18:4 “O you who tear yourself in your anger— For your sake is the earth to be abandoned, Or the rock to be moved from its place?

 

[DanielGillan]

Chaos Theory is accepted as a useful tool in modelling chaotic systems, like fluids. I've never studied the Egyptian religion, and never will. I can't explain why God made the plants on the 3rd day, just his creative mojo working I suppose. However, I suspect it was useful to have the chemical building blocks for life in abundance on the planet, then the sun gets created, and vaporises all the plants.

The Hadean era has rocks that contain what is possibly organic carbon. "The Greenland sediments include banded iron beds. They contain possibly organic carbon and imply some possibility that photosynthetic life had already emerged at that time." (Hadean wikipedia)

Jpark, I think you are wrong about the rock being the planet earth, it's just a rock, but probably a big rock too big to move. From my recollection it's God losing his cool with Job cos he just lost a bet with Satan.

 

[Huram Abi]

I can't explain why God made the plants on the 3rd day, just his creative mojo working I suppose. However, I suspect it was useful to have the chemical building blocks for life in abundance on the planet, then the sun gets created, and vaporises all the plants.

But, you do know that the earth is a by-product of the sun, right?

No sun, no earth.

Now, I know that this is going to be met with absolute resistance by anyone who reads it, but, logically, if plants existed before our sun, then they would have had to exist on another planet in another solar system.

Based on what we know from a scientific standpoint, this is the only plausible explanation for the anachronism. If we are going to accept the Genesis account as literal, then this is the only way to make these events sequentially possible.

I recognize that this is the extra-terrestrial life theory, but, at this point, it is as every bit as reasonable as suggesting that plants were just suspended in space with no earthbound root system and no sunlight or warmth and then the sun came into being.

If life began before the sun, then life was assembled elsewhere and then seeded on earth by extra-terrestrial bombardment.

 

[cupid dave]

I never said the bible is science fiction. I said that your explanation regarding the physical world and the events you gave were.

Lush vegetation creating the oxygen for animals, for example.

He is right about that.

The l

ush plankton first created free oxygen before animal appeared.

 

[cupid dave]

Now, I know that this is going to be met with absolute resistance by anyone who reads it, but, logically, if plants existed before our sun, then they would have had to exist on another planet in another solar system.

Based on what we know from a scientific standpoint, this is the only plausible explanation for the anachronism. If we are going to accept the Genesis account as literal, then this is the only way to make these events sequentially possible.

If life began before the sun, then life was assembled elsewhere and then seeded on earth by extra-terrestrial bombardment.

The sun was created as part of the heavens... Gen 1;1



The Sun, moon, and stars were MADE the authority over Solar Time and Sidereal Time.

Gen. 1:16 And “God,” MADE ([Hebrew: asah] = authority over, assigned] two great lights (by which He ordained Solar Time); the greater light to RULE the day, and the lesser light to RULE the night: he made the stars also (to reign over the Sidereal clock).

 

[Huram Abi]

PLANKTON

 

[Huram Abi]

The sun was created as part of the heavens... Gen 1;1



The Sun, moon, and stars were MADE the authority over Solar Time and Sidereal Time.

Gen. 1:16 And “God,” MADE two great lights: the greater light to RULE the day, and the lesser light to RULE the night: he made the stars also.

Gen 1:19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.



You're making this too easy.

 

[DanielGillan]

Huram Abi, you knw that the Earth contains every single stable element, while our Sun fuses Hydrogen into Helium. It is literally impossible for Earth to be a by product of the Sun.
Even a Super nova cannot fuse elements beyond the atomic order of Iron. Our Sun will never get passed fusing Carbon. The Sun is keeping us in orbit, and giving us night/day cycles, which is the point Cupid dave keeps making. However the sun was clearly placed at the end of the 4th day when you divide the age of the universe by 6, and look at the age of the sun.
Genesis chapter 1 begins by saying the earth was void and without form. I would prefer the use of the word fluids, as opposed to waters, as there are many different elements in water, other than Hydrogen and Oxygen. Day 3 when god is giving the Earth form "let the waters under the heavens be gathered together in one place and let the dry land appear". The Solar system during it's formation was fluid, a big cloud of gas and particles.
Now the gas and particles (fluids) gather together and form the Earth.

 

[granpa]

deleted

 

[Fulltruthministry]

Genesis Chapter 1 (KJV) verses 6-8
' And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midts of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
And God made the firmament and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. '

This passage confused me for quite some time. Understanding comes when you truly believe it. The word firmament comes from the Hebrew for expansion, as verified in the footnotes. So you can interchange the word firmament for expansion without affecting the meaning in any way whatsoever. The waters which were under the firmament, are the same waters which make up our planet now. (Make note of the use of the past tense were). The waters which were above the firmament were incorporated into heaven, and possibly still are being.
This means that there is now more waters inside (under) the expansion (firmament) than there was when god created it. By simple reasoning there must be less outside (above) the firmament.

Scientists have proven that the universe is expanding. It always pleases me, when scientists prove something that Moses knew several thousand years in advance, just because God told him.

The time to create it all was 6 days to God, the universe is 13.75 (+-0.13) Giga years old (13750000000). The earth is 4.54 Giga years old, now if we assume Gods day off started around 4000 years BC, and our measurement of 24 hour time was only made possible on the 5th day, by the creation of the sun, moon, and stars, it's fair to say 4.54 Giga years is close to 2 of Gods days. So, 6 days is around 13.62 Giga years, which is bang on the limit of the margin of error for the age of the universe !
There's no way Moses could have worked that out at the time God told him what to write.
Sorry for my mistake, God made the Sun on the 4th day, I had forgotten. Maths still works out though, just end of 4th day instead of start of 5th.

That was a blessing; but to me its speculation:
This can be nipped in the bud quick
Lets put science aside and look at what God says:
Thats what we TRULY believe right:
Well God says:

5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.


That right there is enough for me to see that science or trying to figure Gods day by the thousand of a year doenst fit here:
This is clearly a day as we know the day;
God also speaks of seasons and years as we know the year:
But EVENING AND MORNING WERE THE FIRST DAY

SO lets look up EVENING AND MORNING to see if it means Gods time or our time: DONT THINK WE REALLY GOTTA DO THAT
Just saying; evening and morning shows that its a day as we know the day: Not a thousand year day; or 500 year half a day; or whatever we try to figure; I say that with respect:


I also believe that the waters above are the same waters that were released in the flood:
God says He opened the gates of heaven:

Know lets see what the true context of those words mean according to whats written; and not how we want to see whats written:

The word for firmament =
raqiya`

Which means:
1) extended surface (solid), expanse, firmament
a) expanse (flat as base, support)
b) firmament (of vault of heaven supporting waters above)
1) considered by Hebrews as solid and supporting 'waters' above

Now consider this:


Genesis 6:17
And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth,



Genesis 7:11
King James Version (KJV)


11In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.



whats written TRULY says God divided the waters:
So lets look some more:


Lets look at divide; and lets TRULY see what it means:
Because this word hints at a separation upon something being severed;

DIVIDE =
badal
Which gives meanings in this regard:

1) to divide, separate
a) (Hiphil)
1) to divide, separate, sever
2) to separate, set apart
3) to make a distinction, difference
4) to divide into parts...


Thus I do agree that there is water above; or there were; maybe God released the waters in the flood; or maybe just some of the waters:
But the natural order of precipitation cant accumulate enough water as did the flood; so its more true to say IT came from above; Being that this is what God says:
He opened the flood gates of heaven:

Interesting post brother:
Blessings: