Genesis, a historical book?

[Micaiah]

As someone was pointing out in another thread, a 1999 poll found that 60% of Methodist clergy do not believe that the virgin birth is historically accurate. I tend to disagree with them, however.

I'm referring to this statement. Do you think people who claim that the *virgin* birth of Christ was not an historical event are wrong?

*Edit

 

[GodSaves]

Let ask you something Vance out of curiousity. Do you spend time arguing/debating those who are theistic evolutionists and say Jesus Christ was not fully God? Personally, I see this to be great harm against witnessing. Whether or not you believe it is was held by whatever church this is still harmful. More harmful then one who believes in creationism or evolution. To say Jesus Christ is not fully God is to reject part of His divinity. Jesus said you will see Him coming down in the clouds to judge. It seems He knew the future. He walked on water. Seems to break the natural laws. He raised the dead, who can do this? Just a man who is from God, who gave up being God so He can live here amongst us? No. Jesus Christ humbled Himself to come in the form of man, not be exactly as man. At anytime Jesus could have stopped everything, He is God, whether in human form or not. And this is the great harm that I see some Christians speaking of. And I see no one speaking against this but rather choosing to speak out against people who have a belief of how the world was created.

Is it more important to you to speak out against the beginning of the world beliefs, or the destructive beliefs against Jesus Christ?

 

[Vance]

Yes, if I met any Christians who doubted the divinity of Christ, I would disagree with them on that point and discuss the matter with them. Not here, of course, since this is not the place for that discussion.

I see both beliefs as equally in error, since both challenge the validity of Scripture. But I see YEC as the greater danger since it is more widely proclaimed, and effects more souls. Over on the Creation and Evolution forum, more and more are coming forward and discussing how damaging the YEC teaching was to their faith and the role it played in their leaving Christianity. I have never once heard someone tell me that they have abandoned Christianity because they came to disbelieve in the full divinity of Christ.

 

[Micaiah]

I await your response Vance.

 

[gluadys]

I'm referring to this statement. Do you think people who claim that the birth of Christ was not an historical event are wrong?

You are misreading the statement Micaiah. The report was not of people claiming that the birth of Jesus was not historical, but of those who claim that it is historically inaccurate to say he was born of a virgin.


Needless to say, there are also those who doubt that Jesus himself was historical, but that was not the point of this report.

 

[Vance]

I'm referring to this statement. Do you think people who claim that the birth of Christ was not an historical event are wrong?

Yes, I do.

As an historian (although I am not sure I can claim that title since my doctorate was in law, and I only have a bachelors in history), I think the idea that Jesus was not an historical person is just unfounded. There is as much evidence for his existence as many figures that all accept as historical.

And, of course, I believe it for theological reasons. Jesus' physical death on the cross was a necessary event for our redemption.

If you are talking about His birth in particular, yes indeed I think His birth was an historical event, since I believe He was an historical figure. I don't think He could have been an historical figure without being born.

As for a virgin birth, even though that is not what you asked, I have provided my thoughts on this already. As I said when I brought up that statistic, I tend to disagree with the denial of a virgin birth.

 

[Micaiah]

Thanks for proof reading my posts.

Do you believe the virgin birth of Christ was an historical event?

 

[Micaiah]

Vance,

Do you have any qualifications in science?

 

[Vance]

Well, I have answered that twice already. Shall I answer it a third time?

 

[Micaiah]

Steps up to the bench. I would like to further cross exam the witness Your Honour. He has said he 'tends to disagree' with the notion that the virgin birth was not an historical event.

Does he believe Christ was born of a virgin?

Does he believe those who assert Christ was not born of a virgin are wrong?

I seek a yes or no response to these questions Sir.

 

[Vance]

You don't call the judge "sir", at least not here in the US.

And I answered this question: yes, I believe Christ was born of a virgin, so yes, I believe that on this point, I believe differently than those who believe otherwise, that is obvious. If I found out tomorrow that He was not born of a virgin, though, it would not effect my faith in the least. That tends to be a threshold criteria for me whether something is a crucial issue.

Would it effect your faith if you found that out? If you found out with absolute assurance that the Gospel accounts of the virgin birth were not true, would you then disbelieve the rest of the Scripture and abandon Christianity? Not general statements about inerrancy, literalism, etc, but what your actual response would be.

I also believe those who believe in predestination are most likely wrong. And praying to saints, and the concept that all those who are filled with the Spirit will speak in tongues, and a myriad of other theological issues. None of these are salvation issues, and it makes me very angry when people try to make them crucial, salvation issues.

And, no, I don't have a degree in science, just lots of science classes and another 20 years of personal study. Not enough to debate minute technicalities, but enough to know solid theories from crackpot ones.

 

[InnerPhyre]

Jesus, who is God the Son, taught us through parables, which weren't necessarily true to actual events, but conveyed truth in them. Why wouldn't God the Father do the same thing through His teachings? Such is my view of Genesis.

 

[Vance]

But Micaiah, you still have not answered my question (whether on this thread or another) whether you think women should still refrain from wearing gold or pearls, braiding their hair, and should remain silent in church, as Paul says here:

"not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, 10but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works. 11Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence."

If not, why not?

 

[InnerPhyre]

If God tried to teach Natural Selection and evolution to whoever He revealed Genesis to, the author wouldn't have been able to comprehend it, since he had no knowledge of genetics. Therefore, God gave it to him in a way he would be able to convey to the rest of us.

 

[Vance]

If God tried to teach Natural Selection and evolution to whoever He revealed Genesis to, the author wouldn't have been able to comprehend it, since he had no knowledge of genetics. Therefore, God gave it to him in a way he would be able to convey to the rest of us.

True. God spoke His Truth about creation in a way that all, throughout time, would be able to grasp. In ancient times, they would not have been concerned about actual historicity, so it worked for them. Later, when historicity became an issue, but science had not yet discovered the details, it still worked, both for the literalist or the non-literalist. Now that we DO know a lot of the scientific details about how He created (and how long it took) it comes as no surprise to me that it STILL WORKS! Christians all over the world who fully accept the scientific explanation of the age of the earth and the development of life still read Genesis one and two with awe and wonder and take to our heart all the Truth that God has for us in that Holy Scripture.

The important bits were NEVER how long it took or what processes God used. It was that God created everything, He is in control of everything, that He found it all good, that He created Man in His image and desires full communion with Man, but Man's selfish, sinful nature prevents us from having this full communion, and we need redemption and the forgiveness of sin that it brings before we can gain that full communion with Him, that true spiritual life that God wants for us.

Genesis 1 and 2 provides those truths, and many others, in a powerful and unforgettable way that can, and has, spoken to every generation of Man who has read it, whether they read it literally or non-literally.

Why would ANYONE tell people that they can not believe these truths unless they also believe it is a literal, scientific description of the process?

 

[GodSaves]

And yet Moses was educated in the best schools of Egypt. Through archaeology we have found that these schools, of that time, taught religion, literature, astrology, and science. Egyptians had the stars and planets charted, they did have the idea of evolution, they charted the sun as the center of our galaxy, they documented the belief that the earth was round. They studied theoretical mathematics and physics.

And yet there are those on here that say that these people were uneducated and unable to understand evolution. And yet the thought of evolution was present in their day. So if God told Moses to write Genesis and tell of evolution, Moses was educated enough to understand. And if you choose to think he was not, then God could have taught him easily. After all God did created everything, including intelligence.

So many fail to understand that you don't need to understand everything perfectly, you just need faith. Secondly, too many people choose to complicate scriptures and rely on their own intelligence instead of relying on God, as He taught us to. Thirdly, this world is full of foolishness. Being wise is not knowing this world and understanding it, it is knowing God and trusting in Him for everything, including creation as documented in Genesis, not the one documented by men who were never there.

God alone was there, God alone told Moses what to write. Man was not, and to trust any man who says differently then the scriptures, is unscriptural.

Man is so good at blaming everything but the real thing. You say YEC is a stumbling block well I believe that this is false. It is man blaming something other then the real thing. They don't want to trust the Bible completely, when men tell you things that are different then what is written in scripture.

There is something seriously wrong when a Christian believes that one who believes and trusts the Bible completely is causing great harm to the Christian faith. There is something seriously wrong when a Christian thinks that one who believes what is written in the Bible, in Genesis 1-3, is factual is more harmful then one who believes Jesus Christ was not God or fully God. This thought is saying it is ok to deny the full divinty of Jesus Christ, but it is not ok to believe that God CREATED not evolved the earth and heavens. Yet you can deny the divinty, in full or part, of Christ and say you are a Christian.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

And yet Moses was educated in the best schools of Egypt. Through archaeology we have found that these schools, of that time, taught religion, literature, astrology, and science. Egyptians had the stars and planets charted, they did have the idea of evolution, they charted the sun as the center of our galaxy, they documented the belief that the earth was round. They studied theoretical mathematics and physics.

assume Moses at 1200BC.
references that Egyptians knew:
1-that the earth was round
2-sun as the center of our galaxy
????

 

[Vance]

" There is something seriously wrong when a Christian believes that one who believes and trusts the Bible completely is causing great harm to the Christian faith."

But you are still not getting it. It is not a matter of trusting the Bible completely. We ALL do that. It is a particular interpretation of the Bible, combined with the teaching that this is the ONLY legitimate interpretation, that is dangerous.

You keep phrasing your whole position as if your interpretation was the only possible one that is "trusting" of Scripture.

 

[GodSaves]

Vance, is the interpretation of Jesus Christ as LORD and Savior, Son of God, crucified and ressurected, ascended to heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father, the only right interpretation?

This the Bible clearly teaches, as does the Bible clearly teach God created the heavens and the earth, and not that God had the heavens and the earth evolve. You think this is my interpretation, yet I can back this interpretation up with scripture. Can you back up the belief of evolution with scripture?

 

[GodSaves]

assume Moses at 1200BC.
references that Egyptians knew:
1-that the earth was round
2-sun as the center of our galaxy
????

Look in these journals as they have stated this:
American Journal of Archaeology
American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures
Annuals of Archaeology and Anthropology, University of Liverpool
Museum Journal
University Museum

Some other history for you:

A school in Ur was found by Dr. Wholly with 150 school Exercise tablets with mathematics, medical, astronomy, geography, politcal, grammar, dictionaries, encyclopedias, annals, and historical texts. And this was at the time of Abraham and looks to be the school that Abraham went to.

The temptation seal, which is in the British Museum teaches of Adam as the seed of mankind. This seal is from ancient Babylonian in which Adam is referred to as Adapa.

In excavations in pre-flood cities there was found many different types of instruments, cosmetics for that woman used for darkening their eyebrows and eyelids, architectural accomplishments that show an advance civilization.

Flood stories existed in stories by these people: Egyptians, Greek, Hindu, Chinese, England, Polynesians, Mexicans, Peruvians, American Indians, and people of Greenland.

Tablets found by George Smith of the British Museum in 1872 give accounts of Assur-banipal at Nineveh to a flood that is almost exactly like that which is in the Bible.

Moses grew up in Pharaohs palace(about 1400 B.C.), as the adopted child of Pharaohs daughter. Moses was taught in the best schools of Egypt. Moses is thought to have been appointed to a high position in the Egyptian government. Josephus says he commanded an army in the south. Tablets found in Egypt show teachings of astrology, science, religion and literature. It has been documented that Egyptians knew of the cosmos and of earths orbit around the sun, theoretical mathematics, physics, and geology. In their study of the planets they knew that planets were round, and that earth was a planet.