Van said:
Thanks Ian90, I was wondering if anyone else knew that equating Mo with O was bogus, demonstrating the lack of credibility in the arguments used against me.
The arguments are credible, you just don't want to accept them. See, we can make sweeping general statements just like you, and expect them to be accepted too.
Van said:
Yes it does not reflect what the bible teaches, but some on this board assert God degrees every detail of every thing, or exhaustive determinism. Never mind Lamentations 32:35, they say it means something other than what it says. Ditto for all the verses that prove RT is a mistaken view.
Caricatures of Calvinism are not accuratre, and therefore the point is meaningless. Lamentations does not have 32 chapters, except maybe in Van's bible. Maybe Van wrote chapters 6 through 32. I think that's where he gets some of the misquotes of scripture he employs.
But Lamentations 3:37 (which really IS in the Bible)states,
"Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not? " The obvious and correct meaning is that NOTHING comes to pass unless the Lord has commanded it. That's not Calvinism, that's the Word of God.
Van said:
Ian90, I see you use the term foreknowledge as if it meant knowledge of the future. If you look at everyplace the word appears (foreknowledge and foreknew or foreknown) you will see all the bible speaks about is God using knowledge (implimenting plans) formulated or acquired in the past in the present. The term only and always refers to something known before the present. Thats it.
Rather, that's what is has to mean for Van's theory to not collapse of it's own weight.
Van said:
This too is wrong and unbiblical. God knows the future which He has predestined. What He says will happen will happen because He will make it happen. If God chose to do this, exercise determistic control of everything, then the future would be closed, and God would exhaustively know the future.
It is entirely possible for God to exhaustively know the future without Him having to decree every last thing. You make a false dilemna in order to avoid the clear fact that God's Word teaches that He ultimately does control all things. The very fact that anything or anyone exists is by His decree. And if He or it exists, it will ultimately serve His Will and Purpose, either by direct decree or by the fact that once set into motion, God knows with absolute certainty all the posible choices, or actions and reactions that can take place, are likely to take place, and therefore will take place. He has created much of His creation to not require His constant active intervention or direction, but that doesn't mean He doesn't control it. His Creation serves His Will.
Pro 16:4 MKJV Jehovah has made all for His purpose; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Pro 16:1 KJV The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
Pro 16:9 KJV A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
Van said:
But we have Lamentations 32:35 telling us God does not exercise exhaustive control sometimes, and Acts 2:23 saying He does sometimes.
There's that scripture citation in an non-existant chapter of Lamentations. You may fool the lazy and unwise with that, but you'll never fool a Calvinist, Van. Lamentations 32:35 does not exist.
Act 2:23 ASV Him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay:
This indicates clearly that the crucifixion was not a random event, but was decreed and determined by God as part of His Purpose and Plan. Now, logically, if one event is decreed beforehand to happen, and that decree is before the beginning of all things, in order for it to be sure, all things leading up to that event must also be decreed, else the planned event cannot be absolutely certain to happen. And for that event to have its desired effect afterward, subsequent events must also be likewise decreed, because if they are not, all things, whether by design or as a result of sin, collapse into entropy.
Those who reject God's control over all things must also logically believe in the old fallacies that 100 chimps, given enough paper, typewriters, and time, will produce the entire written work of War and Peace, or any other large literary work, and/or also believe that a swiss watch completely disassembled and placed in a box, will, if the box is shaken long enough, completely reassemble itself.
Van said:
So the Biblical answer is not Exhaustive Determinism, and is not Open Theism, but a hybrid. This is what the Bible actually teaches.
Van loves those hybrid theologies, because they're like a smorgasbord. He can pick and choose what he wishes to believe, and can interpret scriptures any way he needs to, to make it fit together in his own mind. It's just sad that he then insists that we all must accept his interpretation, and then starts putting down and telling falsehoods about other views that show his to be wrong.
