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Futurists vs Preterists

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Willis Deal, Apr 12, 2002.

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  1. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    The seed dies. So also does Resurrection of the Dead come via physical death. The inner life contained in a seed AT DEATH is activated and it grows to become a NEW BODY, not the body that was sown (1 Cor 15:36-37). The natural body is the seed that dies. The spiritual body is the Apple Tree. The natural body is the seed that dies. The spiritual body is not another seed but is an apple tree -- a NEW BODY THAT GOD GIVES. A body that comes from Heaven (2 Cor 5:2). Hallelujah. It is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY (1 Cor 15:44). The body which you sow is NOT the body that shall be (1 Cor 15:37). But GOD GIVES IT A BODY (1 Cor 15:38). As we have borne the image of the earthly, we shall also BEAR THE IMAGE OF THE HEAVENLY. (1 Cor 15:49). The image of the earthly and the image of the Heavenly are totally different -- they have an entirely different physics. "For the things that are seen are temporal, but the things that are not seen are eternal" (2 Cor 4:18).



    As we have seen from close comparison of Romans 8:14-25 to Galatians 4:1-5:5, they were not at all yet redeemed from the Law but were desperately struggling to get free from it and escape the wrath upon the Torah-for-righteousness Jews that killed millions in AD 66-70. Paul and the early Christians were groaning to get free from the bondage of corruption (The Law of Moses) that they might enter into the glorious liberty of the post-AD70 Church -- an Israel that was freed 100% from the bondage and corruption of the Law of Moses.
     
  2. Dictionaries and concordances? :scratch: And all this time I thought you were showing us what "you believe" the Bible says. And parousia70 told me you were smart when it cames to the Bible. I had no idea you were showing us the ideas of other men and what they believe the Bible says all this time. Ok come on with their ideas. But I would like to remind you that Jesus said:"However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth.

    I will be more then glad to answer your question. But may I ask just one more question please? Can you please show my from the Bible where it say physical death is the subject. Where does it say we physical die because of Adam sin? Or where does it say Adam died physicaly because of his sin.

    Since you futurist believe physical death and physical resurrection is the subject of the Bible you should be able to give evidence from the Dictionaries or concordances sorry I mean the Bible for that view.

    So please just this last question. Where does scripture say
    physical death came into the world because of Adams sin. Or at lest where does it say God came to save us from physical death.
     
  3. eldermike

    eldermike Pray Supporter

    +578
    Baptist
    Married
    US-Republican
    First let me say that I am in no way correcting anything I have seen posted in this thread. When I read through it I was reminded of a night time meeting between Jesus and Nicodemus. I just wanted to share my thoughts, what John 3, spoke to me. I am working on a song about Nicodemus, how it broke my heart when I realized what this man must have known about scripture but didn't have ears for spiritual things. I am not making any assumptions here, I was just interested. The level of Biblical knowledge exhibited in this thread is impressive, very impressive.

    I am sure you remember that Nicodemus wanted to understand the mechanics of re-birth and felt that He had met a superior teacher in the man Jesus, so He set up this meeting. Jesus told him nothing about death, only about life, eternal life in a real place, (Heaven). Jesus told Him that it was empty, but would be filled with living believers for eternity.

    How does this fit a discussion on the mechanics of resurrection? Eternal life is promised, a place is promised, a way was made clear (through Jesus). The Bible is useful in making sure we all have tickets, while we live useful, purpose filled, godly lives. However, we can't begin to deal with the issue of resurrection mechanics other than to speculate; Jesus told Nicodemus that his search for such understanding was an obstacle to His Spiritual understanding of eternal life. (paraphrased).

    You your gifts wisely.
    JN 3:10 "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.



    Blessings
     
  4. A man brother this is what the Preterist view is really all about. "a way WAY made clear (through Jesus).
     
  5. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Hi ElderMike, and welcome to this wonderful and lively discussion. I hope someday to hear your song. Perhaps online?

    Just a thought...

    we can know the things that were revealed through the apostles' teachings on subjects they taught. If the mechanics of Resurrection of the Dead had not been revealed to men then Paul would not have written 1 Cor 15:35-57 or 2 Cor 5:1-4 to teach them those details. Since Paul has written extensively on the subject to communicate the process of Resurrection for the Dead then it is knowable for those who obey from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered (Rom 6:17). It is important to put the brethren in remembrance of these things that we might be that good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine" (1 Tim 4:6). As Paul said to Timothy, "take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee" (1 Tim 4:16).


    Jesus rebuked Nicodemus for not knowing something a man with his role in Israel should have known and understood. "You are Israel's teacher and you do not understand these things?" The O.T. scriptures had much to say about the new birth of Spirit and water. Nicodemus either forgot or didn't love the scripture with a spirit which sought Christ. Jesus challenged him to seek the new birth foretold in the O.T. prophets.

    Resurrection of the dead saints is critically important. Those who know the N.T. know that if Christ is not yet returned then NO ONE has entered Heaven's mansions yet but Jesus Christ (John 3:13). That occurs when Jesus returns (John 14:1-3), which is when resurrection of the dead occurs (1 Cor 15:22-23). The dead are all still unjudged in Hades if the resurrection of the dead saints has not yet happened (Revelation 20:12-15; 1 Cor 15:55-56).

    Just a thought, and Christ's riches to you!
    GW
     
  6. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
    +0
    quote by GW
    "Nope. You are wrong in the worst kinda way here. Really, really wrong."

    you dont see me having to say "it cannot mean what it says"! :D i do not have to try to twist it to match some other scripture.

    Paul tells us plainly our resurrection is like His, i agree, Paul says we are disharged from the mosaic law, i agree, Jesus says His blood is the new covenant, i agree


    you say Paul was under law, he disagrees, you say they(apostles) were not yet saved, they say they were(pre 70ad) you say the cross was a "mere death" Yeshua says his blood was the new covenant.

    and i'm the one wrong? LOL!!!

    what does paul say PRE 70ad?

    But NOW we ARE discharged from the law , dead to that which held us captive , so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.

    Romans 8:1-2
    There is therefore NOW no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.

    he says he did not keep the law, but only appeared to to win jews.

    1 Corinthians 9:20
    To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law--though not being myself under the law- -that I might win those under the law.

    your idea that Paul was under law until 70ad is silly. Paul says plainly he was not under law...PERIOD. pre 70ad :D

    also the fact that the resurrection of Christ is tied to ours in Romans 8:11 by the words ALSO and MORTAL BODIES is confirmed by Paul and Yeshua themselves

    Romans 8:11
    If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies ALSO through his Spirit which dwells in you.

    this means what it simply says, since i have the Holy spirit in me, the Spirit that gave raised Christ from the dead will give life to my mortal body ALSO.

    Romans 6:5
    For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

    your smuggling in the struggle with the flesh and trying to substitute it for the resurrection spoken of in Romans 8:11

    it is not working, just like your legalistic argument.
     
  7. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Hi guys,

    I thought I'd just share a few things:

    Hebrews 8:8-13 speaks of 2 covenants, one which was disappearing, and one that was to come. Verse 13 specifically says the old covenant didn't disappear, at the writing of Hebrews. Apparently the old covenant practices and such didn't disappear until the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

    2 Timothy 2:17-18 says that Hymenaeus and Philetus went around disturbing the faith of some by saying the resurrection happened already. If the resurrection was a physical one, then anyone would easily look around and see bodies flying in the air and such. But obviously this wasn't the case. So how did Hymenaeus and Philetus managed to disturb people's faith? Here's one simple answer: the resurrection wasn't physical. =)

    And then there's 1 John 3:2, which says:

    Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known (1 John 3:2)

    Clearly, apostle John wasn't sure of the heavenly body. And for us to think it's a physical body means that we know what we will be like, yet John says he doesn't know. And this is coming from an inspired apostle.

    Now, there's something to really consider!

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  8. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
    +0
    the seed ITSELF grows into the tree. your mangling 1 cor 15(and how seeds grow LOL!!) trying to make it say the opposite of what it actually says, an act of desparation to hide the physical evidence showing the error of preterism.

    let's look at what the scripture actually SAYS

    1 cor 15:43-44
    So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.

    again....the physical is sown and grows into the spiritual, the "spirit" does not grow into a spiritual body, GW your rewriting the bible again...

    It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body.



    this is a single body GW, "IT" is sown..." "IT" is raised..." what you preterists have here is not a resurrection, but a replacement we do not get a different new body, we get a REnewed body with a changed nature.


    1 Cor 15:51-54
    Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."


    the mortal NATURE "puts on" immortality, the perishable PUTS ON an imperishable nature. again a single body is being spoken of here.

    here is the companion set of verses

    1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
    For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.


    this is another major problem for preterism, another piece of physical evidence showing it false, the Christians who were alive and remained were not caught up" and "changed" into their immortal glorfied forms. we know this because Christians were left on the earth after 70ad! LOL!!!
     
  9. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
    +0

    actually it says:
    "Hebrews 8
    13 In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


    the old covenant is already being treated as obsolete. it was ratified at the cross and Christ became the new covenant mediator...all before 70ad

    Jesus said his blood was the new covenant, that was decades before 70ad

    Luke 22:20
    And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.'


    Hebrews 9:14-18
    how much more shall the blood of Christ , who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God. Therefore he IS the mediator of a new covenant , so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant. For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. Hence even the first covenant was not ratified without blood.



    "the simple answer" is they were wrong! :) Christ was resurected physically, our resurrection is compared to it in Romans 8:11 and Romans 6:5

    Romans 8:11
    If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit which dwells in you.


    Romans 6:5
    For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

    Jesus himself said he was not a spirit.

    Luke 24:39
    See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have."


    it was made known to Paul, i just posted what he said about it; the resurection is physical, and the fact that at 70 ad the dead were not raised and those alive and remaining were not caught up(1 Thessalonians 4:17 7 & 1 Corinthians 15:51-53) is physical evidence preterism is wrong, now THERE is something to really consider! :D
     
  10. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    G'day Messenger,

    What the writer to the Hebrews is saying about the covenants is this: The Old Covenant is obsolete [in light of the New Covenant] and therefore IS in the process of passing away. The Old Covenant [in practice] was still in vogue -though it meant nothing as a means of coming into God's Presence since the Cross, where the new Covenant was ratified.
    It was the intervening "this generation" in which 'that which is obsolete' was in the "process" of passing away, until it was "done away" when Christ came -consumating the New Covenant.

    No one is disputing the efficacy of the New Covenant -it was working salvation from the Cross onwards [that's why Paul could say: we were, we are, and we will be saved].

    Romans 6:5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection.

    Certainly, EVERY believer has been thus united with Christ literally -however not so physically, nor could it nor needs it be thus physical, that would be preposterous. Jesus "literally" meant it when He said: "You must be born again" -he just didn't mean it physically. The scripturally well versed "literalistcally" thinking Nicodemas stumbled right over this.

    Lesson: "literal" DOES NOT always mean "physical". Jesus LITERALLY returned in AD70 -it just wasn't physical!! His coming was covenantal, in ALL its fulness.

    davo
     
  11. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

    328
    +0
    mani,

    Would you have me believe that you never use a concordance or dictionary? It is difficult for me to imagine that you can so readily quote scripture without at least an electronic concordance. And you must be aware that they don't espouse doctrine or teach theology (at least the ones I use don't) and are used by christians of almost every denomination and belief. Since strong's is simply the KJV arranged in an alphabetical format. I hope you aren't too shocked when you find out that p70 (and probably several other of the preterists on this board) also use a strong's concordance. Perhaps you should start your own thread showing what a terrible sin it is to use a concordance and lexicon in the study of scripture.

    Where does it say that Adam died because of his sin?

    Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
    Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
    Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

    There are a whole lot more verses I could quote but since you have trouble distinguishing between the spiritual and physical I'll just use this one in which there can be no doubt that God told Adam his mortal body would die

    I'm disappointed that you didn't acknowledge my answer to your question about a third meaning of death. You really didn't expect me to get that one did you mani?
     
  12. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
    +0
    Hiya Davo,

    the OC was becoming obselete because the new covenant had been ratified

    not really, to say otherwise is to rewrite scripture we know his resurection was bodily because that is how it happened, we also know Christ's spirit did not die only his body, it is the same with us. the only difference is he returned to Glory he had before the world was made, we will be coming into Glory.


    i am not saying he did, this spiritual "rebirth" is an event occuring before physical death, and since you are already "born again" in this manner what does that leave?

    Lesson: if your saying the second coming was the coming of him "spiritually" you are around 4 decades too late. he came "spiritually" at pentecost, not long after his death...and did not leave. you will find this spiritual coming of Christ well documented in the book of Acts.

    you do know that the Holy Spirit IS the spirit of Christ? scripture sustains this:

    1 Peter 1
    The prophets who prophesied of the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired about this salvation; they inquired what person or time was indicated by the Spirit of Christ within them when predicting the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glory.

    the second coming will be what was here before; Christ, the physical manifestation of God. he was all over the old Testament as "the angel of the LORD" when people saw Him they were amazed they "saw the face of God" and lived.

    Acts 1:10
    And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? THIS Jesus , who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven."[/ B]

    it is not a "spiritual" Jesus at the second coming, not a different Jesus but "THIS" Jesus, a physical entity that said this:

    Luke 24:39
    "See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have ."
     
  13. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    For those who have been following, Messenger was trying to use Romans 8 and 1 Cor 15 as passages to refute preterism. That argument has backfired upon him in a very big way due to the fact that he based his arguments on TWO major passages that did not support his claims. The error is his, and it needs to be restated to all readers here that (1) 1 Cor 15:55-56 proves that Resurrection of the Dead saints is tied to the victory over the Law of Moses and (2) that Romans 8 has nothing to say about the Resurrection of the Dead saints.

    Messenger's polemic has failed for two big reasons:

    (#1) Messenger was off on the wrong foot by PRESUPPOSING that the bible teaches Resurrection of the Dead would be something tied to the end of the NEW covenant age. The bible explicitly teaches there is no end to the New Covenant Age, and Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 15:55-56 shows how Resurrection of the Dead saints out of Hades is tied to the end of the OLD covenant age. Paul writes:

    The Death was swallowed up in victory. Where, O Death, is thy sting? Where, O Hades is thy victory?' And the sting of the death is sin, AND THE POWER OF SIN IS THE LAW
    --1 Cor 15:55-56


    This simple passage (which all agree is the victory slogan at the time of the Resurrection of the Dead) clearly teaches that the victory over death came at the close of the MOSAIC LAW AGE wherein sin was still being imputed to the saints who were entangled in keeping the Law for righteousness. The Law Covenant was not yet vanished as of the 60s AD (according to Hebrews 8:13 and many other proofs shown earlier at this thread) and all followers of Jesus who were not walking according to the Spirit were cursed UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES according to Paul. Those Christ-rejectors were about to be judged by the Law of Moses at AD 70 (Romans 2:12; 1 Thess 2:14-16; Acts 13:40; Acts 17:31; 2 Tim 4:1; Matthew 23:33-38; Luke 21:20-22; 1 Peter 4:17). Millions of those jews who refused to seek the righteousness which is by faith were violently destroyed at AD 66-70.


    (#2) Romans 8, which Messenger has tried use in this debate, is not about the resurrection of the dead saints. Instead, those who were STILL UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES included a great many in the early churches who, like those in Galatians 4:1-5:5 and Romans 8:14-25, were not making an effective conversion out of keeping the Law for righteousness and were entangled in Law bondage and corruption (including mandatory circumcision for righteousness). Such men were becoming debtors again to do the whole Law and were falling from grace at the time the Church was waiting for the hope of righteousness by faith (Gal 5:1-5; Gal 4:9-11; Romans 8:23-25). Those stumbling Christ-rejectors of the early Church met their full doom at AD 70 when they fell underneath the curses of the Law defined in Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28. The true Christians, however, escaped the wrath miraculously and received the adoption and eternal inheritance of Christ and Abraham and were manifested at AD 70 as the true sons and daughters of God as they were hoping. This was yet a hope at the time Paul wrote Romans 8:23-25, but was realized when the Law curses came down upon Israel and the the Law of Moses was forever removed from planet earth.

    Messenger had erroneously tried to use Romans 8:14-25 as a passage about the resurrection of the dead saints out of Hades but, in fact, the passage has nothing at all to say about resurrection of the dead saints and instead is parallel with Galatians 4:1-5:5, speaking about the redemption of the the early Church (firstfruits saints of the Holy Spirit and the O.T. creation) who were "groaning together" crying "Abba Father" in the hope of receiving adoption and inheritance as children of God.

    Romans chapter 8 has not one single thing to do with the Resurrection of the Dead out of Hades. The "adoption, the redemption of OUR BODY (singluar)" in Romans 8:23 is that redemption out of the bondage of the Law as righteousness with God and is precisely parallel to Galatians 4:1-10/5:1-5. They were yet in hope of that blessedness (Romans 8:23-25).


    IN SUM
    I am fully satisfied that all the good Bereans here at this message board will read my claims and search those passages to see that what I say is the gospel truth and that Messenger's arguments to me crumbled because they were not built on the SURE FOUNDATIONS of scripture but relied upon presuppositions that he was taught by men and was trained to support with passages that do not support his claims or even speak to the issue (as was the case with his use of Romans 8).

    Boldly proclaiming the resurrection of the dead saints out of Hades and into eternal bliss in God's Heavenly mansions,

    GW

    P.S. -- Heaven is OPEN for business and is now teeming with the saints and our own loved ones who have entered the resurrection as described in 2 Cor 5:1-2 and are enjoying heaven's bliss bodily with Jesus and each other! Messenger says "not true." Scripture says it IS true.
     
  14. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    Messenger, you've misunderstood my reference re Rom 5:6 -to put it another way, Paul said elsewhere [and so consequently all believers] "I have been crusified with Christ" i.e., he "literally" meant it [it happened] but in the greater "spiritual" sense, no one else was or will be "physically" crusified with Christ -obviously. Now you take this truth without a second thought, yet when it comes to His Coming, if you're not physically "seeing" something then it can't be.
    Example: you quoted Acts 1:10

    "And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? THIS Jesus , who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven."

    Well if you believe these angels literally -it was the "men of Galilee" who were to see His return -and Jesus did say some would not die before they saw such. And don't forget, the verse before clearly states that "the cloud hid Him from their sight." Besides all that, Jesus "coming on the clouds" is covenant language describing Yahweh's coming in judgment, so often revealed in the Old Testament.

    davo
     
  15. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    The quickening work of the Spirit in that passage is not the resurrection of the dead whatsoever! It is an explanation of how the deeds of the flesh are to be mortified by the Spirit since the Spirit's quickening work in us releases us from bondage to the flesh so that we might not live according to the flesh.

    The entire argument of Romans 6-8 is about reckoning our current earthly bodies dead with Christ and then OVERCOMING its very living sinful impulses by the quickening work of the Holy Spirit in us that we would not walk according the flesh (Romans 8:1, 8), be carnally minded (8:6), nor be debtors to the flesh to live after the flesh (Romans 8:11-13). That flesh spoken of is not our FUTURE RESURRECTION BODIES but speaks of the current earthly bodies that we have reckoned dead (Romans 6:11) but that are very much alive and teeming with sinful impulses (Rom 7:15-24; Rom 8:5-13) which MUST be dealt with somehow by the believer. (That "somehow" is by the quickening work of the Holy Spirit in us that counters the law of evil that abides in all flesh according to Romans 7:21-25.)

    The Messenger has misread Romans 8 in its entirety and cannot use it in the debate since it does not at any point deal with the Resurrection of the Dead saints out of Hades.

    GW
     
  16. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    GW, that's a really good post, precise and concise -I trust folk will do themselves a favour and actually read the corresponding Scriptures :clap:

    davo
     
  17. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    The seed DIES. The seed MUST DIE. "THOU FOOL, that which you sowest is NOT made alive unless it die" (15:36).

    Next, the body that is sown is NOT the body that shall be. But GOD GIVES IT A BODY (1 Cor 15:38) and that body is not the "image of the earthly" (1 Cor 15:49) but is a body "FROM HEAVEN" (2 Cor 5:2; 1 Cor 15:47). Corruption CANNOT inherit incorruption (1 COr 15:50). Jesus was PREVENTED from corruption according the Messianic prophecy (Acts 2:27-31) which shows that David was not the one to receive that promise -- JESUS WAS. Otherwise David is the Messiah.

    Resurrection of the Dead comes via physical death. That is, one must be among the dead to be raised. The inner life contained in a seed AT DEATH is activated and it grows to become a NEW BODY, not the seed body that was sown (1 Cor 15:36-37). The natural body is the seed that dies. The spiritual body is the Apple Tree. The natural body is the seed MUST DIE to gain a resurrection body. The spiritual body is not another seed but is an apple tree, a NEW BODY THAT GOD GIVES (15:38). There is a NATURAL BODY and there is a SPIRITUAL BODY. They are not at all the same fabric. Our spirtual body is a body that comes from Heaven (2 Cor 5:2). The dead get raised as a SPIRITUAL BODY (1 Cor 15:44). The body which you sow is NOT the body that shall be (1 Cor 15:37). But GOD GIVES IT A BODY (1 Cor 15:38). As we have borne the image of the earthly, we shall also BEAR THE IMAGE OF THE HEAVENLY. (1 Cor 15:49). The image of the earthly and the image of the Heavenly are totally different -- they have an entirely different physics. "For the things that are seen are temporal, but the things that are not seen are eternal" (2 Cor 4:18).




    Wrong. What preterists have here is a regenerated INNER MAN and a corrupted sin body (the outer man) that CANNOT inherit incorruption (1 Cor 15:50) and therefore is to be destroyed (Romans 6:6). Christ's OUTER MAN was NOT left by God to corruption according to the Messianic promise (Acts 2:27-31) and therefore was raised and transfigured. No such luck for our sin-soaked outer man. Our outer man is an earthly tent that is dissolved so that we might take upon us our spiritual body which is FROM HEAVEN (2 Cor 5:1-2). The resurrection body is "not made with hands" according to 2 Cor 5:1-2 WHICH MEANS IT IS NOT OF THIS MATERAL CREATION (Hebrews 9:11). Therefore we KNOW that the nature of our heavenly, spiritual, incorruptible bodies are "NOT OF THIS MATERIAL CREATION" (Heb 9:11).


    Paul here separates out the living from the dead. The DEAD ONLY are raised at the last trump. The living are prohibited from preceding them. The living that remain over at the Day of Christ are LATER caught up to be with the resurrected dead saints. They were not raised at the last trump -- only the dead are raised into their immortal bodies at the last trump.
     
  18. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
    +0

    your logic is nonsense my friend.

    the victory over the law of sin and death was acheived at the cross decades before 70ad. i have posted much scripture directly supporting this. it was not a "mere death" as you put it. Jesus Himself said His blood was the blood of the new covenant.

    Matthew 26:28
    for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

    Hebrews 9:17-18
    Therefore he IS the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant. For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established . For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. Hence even the first covenant was not ratified without blood .


    Colossians 2:13-15
    And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross . He disarmed the principalities and powers and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in him.


    Romans 8:11 deals directly with the resurrection by comparing our resurrection to Christ's

    Romans 8:11
    If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies -->ALSO<-- through his Spirit which dwells in you.

    this says to me what it simply says as written...if i have the Holy spirit in me then that spirit that raised Jesus from the dead will raise my mortal body to new life "ALSO"


    you see GW, i do not have to write paragraph after paragraph to change the meaning of what this says plainly you really need to let what the bible says dtermine your doctrine, instead of trying to make your doctrine determine what scripture says.

    but i understand your desperation, you have to find some way to change what scripture says to avoid the physical evidences proving preterism is wrong.

    but the evidence is there nonetheless, and your arguments are destoyed. The bones bear a testimony to the falseness of preterism, and the fact Christians remained on earth after 70ad shows they were not "changed" and "caught up" as per 1 thess 4:17 and 1 cor 15:52...i can even name one, Polycarp.

    GW, you simply have no way around the physical evidence.
     
  19. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    It seems pretty clear this speaks to the "present life" of the saints -NOT future resurrection:

    Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, [present tense] He who raised Christ from the dead will also [speaks of assurance] give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

    1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then [the Greek actually means "afterwards" or, "later on"] we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    It is EXACTLY the same word as found in the following:

    1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    davo
     
  20. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Messenger,

    I am not going to let you go on this one. Romans 8 has to do with the quickening action of the Holy Spirit in our earthly flesh bodies so that they are not helpless against the law of sin in them which Paul talked about all through Romans 7:17-8:13. That section is not about resurrection of the dead. The flesh being described in Romans 7:17-8:13 is NOT our resurrection bodies. Ugh. You cannot continue to ignore this. Romans 8:10-13 is about the Holy Spirit's quickening work in our current earthly bodies so that we do "MORTIFY the deeds of the flesh." Not the flesh of our RESURRECTION BODIES, but of our earthly ones that we have reckoned dead but that are flesh and alive with sinful impulses according to the law of them explained in Romans 7:19-25

    Next, Romans 8:14-25 is exactly parallel to Galatians 4:1-5:5. THIS proves yet again that the adoption as children of God and the escape out of bondage that all creation was STILL HOPING TO ATTAIN in Romans 8:14-25 WAS THAT BONDAGE TO THE LAW which the Galatians were not fully escaped from. The "adoption: the redemption of our BODY" which Paul writes about in Romans 8:23 is the redemption of True Israel out of the practice of keeping the Law for Righteousness with Christ. The early Church was keeping the Law for righteousness as they practiced it -- it was bondage that they were going back to. The exodus that Jesus led at the Cross at AD 30 created a generation of people in the wilderness (1 Cor 10:1-11) for a time of testing and probation. MANY desired to go back to Egypt and become Hagar and Ishmael who were to be cast out of the inheritance (Gal 4:22-31). The 1st century Churches were full of bondage to the Law of Moses as righteousness with God.

    Romans 8:23-25 was a YET FUTURE HOPE to Paul and the 1st century churches and the passage has nothing at all to do with the resurrection of the bodies of dead saints, but, rather, has everything to do with Galatians 4:1-5:5.
     
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