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Futurists vs Preterists

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Willis Deal, Apr 12, 2002.

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  1. GW

    GW Veteran

    +58
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    Romans 8 has absolutely nothing at all to do with the Resurrection of the Dead. That giving of life to the mortal body in that passage was so they could mortify the deeds of their flesh and not be debtors to it to obey its lusts. The next statment is: "If you THROUGH THE SPIRIT mortify the deeds of the body you shall live."


    Rather, "we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of OUR BODY." Body is singluar there, and means the body of the believers -- those saints who had received the firstfruits as well as the rest of creation that believed PRIOR to the time of the Holy Spirit. They all were groaning together in the hope of salvation which was only a hope as of Romans 8:24-25.

    Care to elaborate?
     
  2. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

    +1,229
    Christian
    1 Corinthians 15:51-58

    So we see that there is to be (or was to be) a physical change of the mortal to the immortal, and that the dead were to be raised with the living to attain this. Only at this point, whether past or future, is the saying completed that death is swallowed up in victory. Not just spiritual death, but physical also.

    Another item worthy of remembering, and perhaps preterists can explain this as well, is Mark 13:10 tells us that first the gospel must be published ( I don't imply this means physically published in book form, but taught at the very least ) among all nations. This does not seem to be true, historically, of the year 70 A.D.

    GW and parousia are both familiar with my general position that the preterist belief, while perhaps understandable, makes more problems than it solves for my understanding of the end times. Here are just two more examples.

    On the other hand both parousia and GW have been very polite and tried to help, and I appreciate that.
     
  3. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
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    :rolleyes:


    actually GW, the word "soma"(strong's #4983) is neutral in it is used both singular and plural, the context determines plurality and since the words "we" and "our" are used in conjunction with it, the context shows it plural.

    i did, you did not see it?


    also there is an event prior to the resurrection:

    1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
    For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.

    1 Corinthians 15
    Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality.


    When the perishable PUTS ON the imperishable, and the mortal PUTS ON immortality, THEN shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

    this is more physical evidence preterism is incorrect, the fact is many Christians that were here in and before 70ad and were here after 70ad shows that Yeshua did not come back in 70ad.
     
  4. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

    +1,229
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    See someone believes the same as me anyhow! So far...

    :D
     
  5. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

    328
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    Mani,

    I've given you a different perspective on the Adam and Eve story, shown how God can pronounce judgment and then relent because of His mercy, shown verses which tell of dead bodies coming out of the dirt, and you want to discuss dictionaries?

    Even though you've failed to show that Adam and Eve died spiritually the day they ate the fruit how about I just give you that point. Ok, Adam and Eve died spiritually the day they ate the fruit.

    Even though you haven't proven that death = seperation how about I give you that one too. Ok, one definition of death can be that it equals seperation from God.

    Even though you haven't shown that any concordance or dictionary is in error in any way I can still agree with you that such material isn't God breathed and inerrent.

    What does that leave? Adam and Eve still died a physical death. Death still has a definition which includes the departing of life from the physical body. Dictionaries and concordances are invaluable to the study of scripture, they were compiled by men both more intelligent and better educated than I and if I have any hope of understanding the true intent of the scripture in the language it was written i better keep my reference work handy and not substitute my own ideas unless I have a secondary source to confirm my beliefs.

    With all those side issues out of the way maybe you can explain the verses I quoted in my very first post that shows a physical resurrection of the mortal body.

    Oh, by the way, before I forget... Death also has the meaning of 'pestilence or ruin' as in Exodus 10:17.
     
  6. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
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    >>Even though you've failed to show that Adam and Eve died spiritually the day they ate the fruit

    2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

    Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

    Genesis 5:5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.

    Adam may have lived to be 930 years of age. But that is still less than one day to God.
     
  7. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

    520
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    Ahhh..The Messenger has arrived. I've lurked on yours and GW's threads for months on a different message board. :D

    Glad to see you've decided to start posting here. Welcome :)
     
  8. GW

    GW Veteran

    +58
    Christian
    Hiya Shane. Look very closely at the saying that "death is swallowed up in victory." Look how Paul ties it to the end of the Age of the Mosaic Law and NOT the end of the New Covenant Age (which had barely even begun yet). Paul writes:

    'The Death was swallowed up in victory where, O Death, is thy sting? Where, O Hades is thy victory?' And the sting of the death is sin, AND THE POWER OF SIN IS THE LAW -- 1 Cor 15:55-56

    It was The Law of Moses that was preventing the saints from entering Heaven due to it's condemnation of the saints. Paul sees the victory over death to be tied to the removal of the Law Age, which was centered in the Temple system instituted by God and not destroyed until AD 70. Christ had very much to say about the destruction of the Temple.

    Paul was living in the last days of the Old Testament Age when Resurrection was about to happen (Romans 13:11; Acts 24:15), -- it was even to occur in their lifetimes as Paul fully expected and taught (1 Thess 4:15 -- "WE who are alive and remain..."). Acts 24:15 says:

    Acts 24:15
    having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that THERE IS ABOUT TO BE a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous (Young's LITERAL translation)


    Indeed, Jesus was resurrected out of Hades at AD 30 and Paul was expecting the rest of the O.T. saints to exit Hades and join Christ in Heaven's bliss very, very, soon. They hadn't yet, but Paul promised that the Hebrews 11 O.T. saints were destined to receive their promise in Paul's generation (Hebrews 11:39-40).

    Does Paul tie Resurrection (which he taught was ABOUT TO happen in their lifetimes -- Acts 24:15; Romans 13:11, 1 Thess 4:15) to the end of the New Covenant Age? Absolutely not. Does Paul tie the institution of Resurrection to the end of the Old Testament Age? The answer is ABSOLUTELY YES. Paul ties the institution of Resurrection to the removal of THE OLD COVENANT LAW OF MOSES. Paul teaches that the sting and victory of death (which futurists teach have not yet been eradicated) exists due to SIN POWERED BY THE LAW OF MOSES! (1 Cor 15:56). Look at it carefully one last time:

    1 Corinthians 15:54-56
    and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up in victory where, O Death, is thy sting? Where, O Hades is thy victory?'[56] And the sting of the death is sin, AND THE POWER OF SIN IS THE LAW.

    When the Temple was destroyed at the last trump at AD 70 the dead O.T. saints were instantly taken to Heaven to be with Christ in their eternal inheritance. They are there now and we, the living, are caught up to be with them instantly and exactly as 2 Cor 5:1-2 states:

    2 Corinthians 5:1-2
    For we know that if the earthly house of our tent is dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens. For most assuredly in this we groan, longing to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven


    God bless,
    GW
     
  9. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Hi Shane, Thank you for your kind words. I know I always do my level best to present my understanding with patience, grace and kindness (I'm not always perfect at it of course, but it's nice to see my efforts recognized once in a while!)

    As far as being "changed" I do not see anything in that text that states or even implies anything "physical " in nature any more than the term "born again" denotes a second pass through the womb. The "change" was in covenental status. "Blessed are they that die in the lord from now on". Physical death continues on into the New H&E,(Isaiah 65:17-21) but since the "Change" it is no longer a barrier between God and Man, rather it is merely Gods servant to bring man into a deeper level of Human existance. An existance that was intended from the foundation of the world. "The Sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the Law [of Moses]". "Sin is not imputed when there is no Law [of Moses]" (Romans 5:8)

    Sin no longer has any strength, meaning it can no longer keep man from salvation, in fact only sinners get saved! Our Sins are not imputed against us. We either choose to remain in Adam, where we are already condemned whether we sin or not, or we choose to enter into Christ, and we are saved despite our sins. Sin has been forever abolished as any criteria whatsoever by God to determine our salvation status.

    Gospel Preached to all nations

    Was the gospel preached in all the world before AD 70?

    Probably one of the most common beliefs among Christians is that once the gospel is preached to all the world, Christ will return and the world will end. This is a theme verse of the Christian Broadcasting Network. They are trying to fulfill this verse. Most believers would say that this verse has not yet been fulfilled, the gospel has not yet been preached to all the world. How do we know if it has? Well, Jesus said the end would come once the gospel was preached to all the world. How can we find out if the gospel was preached in all the world before AD 70? We can go the Scriptures and see if they give us any insight to this matter:

    Matthew 24:9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.

    Why would the apostles be hated in all nations if they had not preached the gospel in all nations? They were hated by all nations because they preached in all nations. Paul declares that the gospel was preached to every creature under heaven:

    Colossians 1:5-6 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

    Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.


    In Matthew 24:14, the Greek word for preached is kerusso, it is in the future tense. But in Colossians 1:23 the same word kerusso is in the aorist tense (past). Jesus said that it is to be preached and Paul says in AD 62, that it has been preached to every creature. Paul also said that the faith of the Romans was spoken of throughout the whole world.

    Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

    Paul said that the gospel was made known to all nations.

    Romans 16:25-26 (NKJV) Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith;.

    We know that Paul traveled through Asia Minor, Greece, and Crete; that he was in Italy, and probably in Spain and Gaul (Romans 15:24-28). During this time the other apostles weren't sitting around idle; and there is much proof that within thirty years after this prophecy was spoken, churches were established in all these regions.

    Crysostom (375) wrote,
    "Therefore He added moreover, "And this gospel shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all nations, and then shall the end come,"(7) of the downfall of Jerusalem.

    For in proof that He meant this, and that before the taking of Jerusalem the gospel was preached, hear what Paul saith, "Their sound went into all the earth;"(8) and again, "The gospel which was preached to every creature which is under Heaven."(9)

    Which also is a very great sign of Christ's power, that in twenty or at most thirty years the word had reached the ends of the world. "After this therefore," saith He, "shall come the end of Jerusalem." For that He intimates this was manifested by what follows."


    Eusebius (325) wrote,
    "THUS, under the influence of heavenly power, and with the divine co-operation, the doctrine of the Saviour, like the rays of the sun, quickly illumined the whole world;[1] and straightway, in accordance with the divine Scriptures,[2] the voice of the inspired evangelists and apostles went forth through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world." (Book II, Ch.III.)

    Many today say that the gospel has not been preached to all the world and Matthew 24:14 has not yet been fulfilled. The Bible says that all the nations of the world heard the gospel preached before AD 70. Who are you going to believe? To deny that Matthew 24:14 has been fulfilled is to deny the clear statements of God's Holy Word; it is to call God a liar.

    Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

    "Then the end will come." The end of what? What were they asking about? The end of the temple and the Jewish age. He is not saying the world will end when everyone has heard the gospel, or that the Christian age will end.

    Jesus very clearly tells his disciples that before the temple would be destroyed and before His parousia and the end of the age, the gospel must be preached in all the world. And it was! The temple was destroyed! He arrived in full glory! The Old Covenant age ended!

    This does not mean that the gospel was not to be preached after the end had come. It was to be preached for ever and always.

    Revelation 14:6 14:6
    Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth--to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people--

    The everlasting Gospel's only purpose is to be preached to sinners who dwell on earth. Once sinnere cease to dwell on earth, the "everlasting Gospel" becomes obsolete, and we know that will never happen.

    Notice also the parable of the wedding feast:

    Matthew 22:1-7 And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 "The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 "and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. 4 "Again, he sent out other servants, saying, 'Tell those who are invited, "See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding."' 5 "But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. 6 "And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. 7 "But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

    Notice what he says to his servants AFTER the city is destroyed:

    Matthew 22:8-10 "Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9 'Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.' 10 "So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests.

    We dwell in the New Jerusalem in the very presence of God and the invitation is still going out today. Notice the invitation that goes forth from the New Heaven and Earth:

    Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

    I trust that you are faithfully proclaiming the message to everyone who is thirsty -- come into the Holy City and drink freely!
     
  10. GW

    GW Veteran

    +58
    Christian
    I said the harvest was present. Jesus was taken from the harvest of resurrection of the O.T. dead saints. Resurrection had come to that generation and that is how they taught it. Paul said "WE who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord will not precede them who are asleep..." (1 Thess 4:15)." At the time 1 Thess was written Paul considered fully that he would be alive when the change over took place.


    You are asking the exactly correct questions. Now go read Paul's exact answer to your question concerning how it was that death reigned from Adam to Moses even though sin was not imputed. Paul then shows how Christ reversed all of it: ROMANS 5:12-21

    If you have questions, let me know.
     
  11. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

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    can i assume by this change of subject the points raised with direct and in context scriptural backing about a pre 70ad change to the new covenant(and change in law), the physical nature of the bodily resurrection, and the fact Christians that were here before, during and after 70ad, are being conceded?
     
  12. GW

    GW Veteran

    +58
    Christian
    You are full of hot air, professor. :)

    I took two years of ancient greek and know you are wrong here. Context does NOT determine singluar versus plural for the noun "soma" (body). The word has the usual, normal singluar and plural forms. Romans 8:23 is singluar just as in Romans 8:13's "deeds of the body." The PLURAL form of SOMA can be seen in Romans 12:1.

    Romans 8:23 is not OUR BODIES. It is our BODY. Paul could have said the plural OUR BODIES but he did not. Paul is speaking of the body of all the saints -- the 1st century believers who had the Holy Spirit who were groaning along with the rest of the creation (O.T. saints) who did NOT have access to the Holy Spirit. They were all ONE BODY groaning together awaiting the adoption.

    You have it all backwards. Aaron's priesthoood was a copy/replica of the heavenly priesthood of the Melchizedek order. Everything Moses was told to establish (i.e., the earthly tabernacle and Aaronic priesthood) was patterned after the true heavenly objects themselves (Heb 8:5; Heb 9:23-24). The Aaronic O.T. service was a replica taken from the vision of the Heavenly priesthood God showed Moses. Moses was instructed to create a priesthood and Temple that would mirror and copy the TRUE HEAVENLY VERSIONS.

    Hebrews 9:18-24 shows this. The writer of Hebrews explains what the shadow-procedure was and then says: "it was necessary, therefore, that the PATTERNS of things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the HEAVENLY THINGS THEMSELVES with better sacrifices than these for Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands (which are figures of the true) but into heaven itself...

    Paul's whole argument is that Christ is ascended into the Heavenly Temple to perform the Yom Kippur for the saints. Moses sprinkled the earthly tabernacle and vessels of the ministry which Aaron was instructed to do each year according to Leviticus 16.




    That event was for Paul's time. Paul says, "WE WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN OVER...," fully signaling to us that this was an event for their generation. Paul could not be in error on this.
     
  13. GW

    GW Veteran

    +58
    Christian
    The OT saints were indeed, in the blink of an eye, raised out of Hades and taken to be with Christ in Heaven's mansions where they live bodily and reign with Christ forever.

    Heaven is not some immaterial vapor. EARTH, by comparison to the Heavenly realities is the vapor. All men are like grass.
     
  14. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
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    the "usual, normal singluar and plural forms." are determined by context with the use of the words "we" and "our" denote plurality, this would still hold true even in the singular sense as per the strong's definition 1 b.

    is this the same place where you learned "tense does not matter"? LOL!!!!

    the spirit is made alive in Christ by faith, the spirit never dies but the body does, only what is dead needs "resurrecting" what is resurected the BODY

    it is the BODY that is sown in dishonor and raised in glory "IT" is singular, "IT" "PUTS ON" immortality "it PUTS ON" glorification(1 cor 15)

    a shoddy excuse to say "mortal bodies" actually means "spirit" "mortal means liable to death" the spirit of the believer is not "mortal"...a classic case of scripture twisting...an act of desparation to avoid one of the physical evidences proving preterism wrong.

    Yeshua was PHYSICALLY resurrected ,His spirit did not die and our resurrection will be "like his"...

    Luke 24:39(quote by Yeshua)
    See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have."

    Romans 6:5
    For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection LIKE HIS.

    Luke 24:1-5
    But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they went to the tomb, taking the spices which they had prepared. And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb, but when they went in they did not find the BODY. While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men stood by them in dazzling apparel; and as they were frightened and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, "Why do you seek the living among the dead?

    as far as the "catching up" this did not happen in 70ad, believers remaining on earth that were here pre70ad were ehar afterward, i can even name one..Polycarp.

    so GW when you say:

    we have another piece of physical evidence YOU are wrong.
     
  15. GW

    GW Veteran

    +58
    Christian
    Paul does not say BODIES. The grammar says BODY (singular). There is no way to translate it as a plural because Paul says BODY and certainly could have used the plural like he does in Romans 12:1. Paul is talking about the body of the saints groaning together awaiting the adoption and for their HOPE of salvation to be realized (Rom. 8:23-25).

    (1) "It is raised a SPIRITUAL body. There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body."
    --1 Cor 15:44

    (2) "that which you sow IS NOT that body that shall be ... God GIVES IT A BODY...and to every seed its own body."
    -- 1 Cor 15:37-38

    (3) For we know that if the earthly house of our tent is dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens. For most assuredly in this we groan, longing to be clothed with our habitation WHICH IS FROM HEAVEN;
    -- 2 Cor 5:1-2

    So we are (1) raised a SPIRITUAL body. And we are (2) given a body from God because the body we sow is NOT the body that will be. And we know that (3) our eternal body is FROM HEAVEN and "not made with hands," which means "not from this material creation" (Heb 9:11).


    Romans 8:10-13 is about the Holy Spirit quickening our mortal bodies so that their fleshly impulses do not have to rule us. Read the context. Romans 8 is not talking anywhere about the Resurrection of the Dead out of Hades.

    Finally, the catching up of the dead O.T. out of Hades to Heaven's mansions in the blink of an eye happened at AD 70 and the living were NOT to precede them. They are there brother. The dead were raised and the living did not precede them into Heaven.
     
  16. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

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    i just have shown you the definition from Strong's that is in context your completely discounting other things Paul says that support this. also texts from the Hebrew language confirm this.

    also your distorting 1 cor 15

    the mortal body is the "seed" that BECOMES the glorified spiritual body, you highlight the word "spiritual in "spiritual body" and ignore the fact it is still a BODY..a physical thing. only to later alude to it.

    quote by GW
    "Romans 8:10-13 is about the Holy Spirit quickening our mortal bodies so that their fleshly impulses do not have to rule us. Read the context"

    i do ! :D it is speaking of the body being raised to new life after it dies, he elucidates this in 1 cor 15. the spiritual redemption is an event that has already occured, which is why Paul speaks of it in past tense, but the bodily redemption is future tense. our trying to mix the 2 into one saying "tense does not matter" and it is simply not working.

    the mortal physical body is dead, the spirit is alive, only what is dead needs resurrecting.

    actually this does not speak about the OT saints, that is an interjection from you in an attempt rewrite scripture.

    the point is that the believers that are alive and remain will be "caught up" with OT saints which are a PART of the "dead in Christ" to exsist in the same manner...bodily. the fact Christians remained here after 70ad is again, further physical evidence preterism is faulty.

    Christ was physically resurrected and Paul tells us in no uncertain terms our resurrection will be like his. we have already been united in the spirit, the flesh comes later.

    Luke 24:39(quote by Yeshua)
    See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have."

    Romans 6:5
    For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection LIKE HIS.

    Job was pretty excited about this physical resurrection as well

    Job 19:25-27
    For I know that my Redeemer lives , and at last he will stand upon the earth; and after my skin has been thus destroyed, then from my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see on my side, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. My heart faints within me!

    now the physical nature of christ's resurrection is firmly established let's look at Romans 8:11 again and just for kicks i'll use the singular "body"

    Romans 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal BODY -->ALSO<-- through his Spirit which dwells in you

    "your mortal body ALSO" ...this compares our resurrection to Yeshua's which was a physical resurrection. and say it will be the same in agreement with Romans 6:5

    also GW i really do no know why you persist in the legal argument, i have already shown scripture plainly exposing the blatant error that the law was in effect until 70ad, the new covenant was enacted on the cross, and Paul spent alot of time telling people before 70ad he and they were not under law. scroll up and deal with the scripture you try so hard to ignore
     
  17. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Paul would have used the plural form of soma in Romans 8:23 like he did in Romans 12:1 if he meant to say BODIES. But he meant to say OUR BODY, because he was talking about the body of saints groaning together awaiting the adoption.


    First, there are bodies in Heaven which are more "physical" than our own earthly ones which quickly arise and decay back to nothing. Paul teaches about the wide diversity of bodies in 1 Cor 15:40-44 to teach men like yourself that there are INDEED heavenly, spiritual bodies living in the heavenly realm. If one only thinks that bodies are an earthly thing then one greatly misunderstands God's universe of created earthly and heavenly bodies.

    Next, a seed must fall to the ground and die in order for the INNER LIFE to spring forth and take on the new body that God gives it. An apple seed is NOT the apple tree. Correct? They are two different bodies. The seed body dies and the inner life (Paul's "inner man") arises into a NEW body that God gives. As Paul says, "that which you sow [the earthly body] IS NOT that body that shall be ... God GIVES IT A BODY...and to every seed its own body" (1 Cor 15:37-38).

    (1) "It is raised a SPIRITUAL body. There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body."
    --1 Cor 15:44

    (2) "that which you sow [the earthly body] IS NOT that body that shall be ... God GIVES IT A BODY...and to every seed its own body."
    -- 1 Cor 15:37-38

    (3) For we know that if the earthly house of our tent is dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens. For most assuredly in this we groan, longing to be clothed with our habitation WHICH IS FROM HEAVEN;
    -- 2 Cor 5:1-2

    So we are (1) raised a SPIRITUAL body. And we are (2) given a body from God because the body we sow is NOT the body that will be. And we know that (3) our eternal body is FROM HEAVEN and "not made with hands," which means "not from this material creation" (Heb 9:11).


    Romans 8:10-13 is about the Holy Spirit quickening our mortal bodies so that their fleshly impulses do not have to rule us. Read the context. Romans 8 is not talking anywhere about the Resurrection of the Dead out of Hades. Chapters 6-8 are all about sin in our "dead" mortal bodies and how to not let sin reign. Romans 8:1-14 is all about the Spirit's role in quickening us so we can mortify the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit (8:13) so that we will not be debtors to the flesh and bound to fulfill its lusts (8:12).


    Paul's whole argument in Romans 6-8 is that the mortal physical body is "reckoned dead"(Rom 6:11) yet is still full of living sinful impulses (Romans 7:19-24) that can and must be controlled by the work of the Holy Ghost in us (Romans 8:1-13). By "dead" Paul means the body of sin is "dead in God's eyes" while we are still alive in it on this planet. It is by the quickening work of the Holy Spirit that we are not "debtors to the FLESH" to live after the flesh! Paul does not mean our FUTURE RESURRECTED FLESH! You keep saying "the body is dead! the body is dead!" If that were true then Romans 8:12-13 would have to mean (*gasp*) "mortifying the deeds of our FUTURE RESURRECTION BODIES.

    Instead, we understand that when Paul says the body is dead yet full of sinful impulses we know that he is saying that God has regenerated our "INNER MAN" and the quickening work of the Holy Spirit allows us to "walk in the Spirit" so we will not be like those who are "in the flesh" so that they cannot please God (Romans 8:8).


    1 Cor 15 speaks of the same exact dead as in Acts 24:15. Paul, in contrast, was among the living. The O.T. saints of Hebrews 11:39-40 and Romans 8:20 and the Thessalonians of 1 Thess 4:13 were among the dead.


    And that's a major error. The LIVING are not the dead. Period. And, the living were NOT to precede the dead. Paul says:


    "we who are living -- who do remain over to the presence of the Lord -- may not precede those asleep ...the dead in Christ shall rise first" (1 Thess 4:15-16 -YLT)



    We do share in the likeness. Of course, this likeness is not sameness at all. First, Christ's body was the ONLY body promised to not see corruption because it was SINLESS. David, who spoke as if the promise that his flesh would not see corruption was for himself was NOT the one -- JESUS WAS (Acts 2:27,31)! Jesus was the only one promised that his flesh would not be left by God to corruption (because He was sinless, obviously).

    Next, will we have scars like Christ? If our resurrection bodies are JUST LIKE HIS then I believe that those with missing limbs will have a tough eternity. What will happen to those who have body defects and shark bites and missing eyes and fingers and legs? Do they really want their earthly bodies back just like Jesus got his back? What about those of us who have shared our body molecules with other living people and organisms that have died long before us? Will they get their bodies back but not us?


    Why do you keep changing the scriptures? That "SOMA" in Romans 8:11 is PLURAL and is speaking about our individual earthly, mortal bodies that must be quickened by the Holy Spirit in order to mortify the deeds of the flesh. Ugh. Quick trying to shift the greek text to make it say something it does not. Just keep the text the way Paul wrote it.

    Let's get it straight here:

    Romans 8:11 is PLURAL, "mortal bodies."

    Romans 8:23 is SINGLUAR, "our body." -- the body of the dead and living saints groaning together for adoption. They are groaning, ABBA, FATHER (Romans 8:15) as they await the adoption.
     
  18. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
    +0
    Roamns 8:23 is as reference to the physical resurrection. twist and squirm GW, it is concrete! the FACT is you are not in your immortal body, the FACT is this is a promise YOU are waiting on just like Paul was when he wrote these words!! :) your hope for redemption from the earth is brought about by your present spiritual redemption through your faith while you are still in your MORTAL BODY..and it will die GW that is why it is "mortal"...but it will be raised again in glory, the perishable will be MADE imperishable, this can only mean the body because unless you suffer the second(spiritual) death by UNBELIEF.

    correct, but the seed itself TURNS INTO the apple tree, that is why if no seed is planted, no tree grows...correct? likewise the mortal body is planted perishable, but IT is raised imperishable.

    first you have to have spiritual redemption, which Paul had before 70ad the release from the law he so plainly talks about.

    Ephesians 1:7
    In him we HAVE redemption through his blood , the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace

    Colossians 1:14
    in whom we HAVE redemption , the forgiveness of sins

    Galatians 3:13
    Christ REDEEMED us from the curse of the law , having become a curse for us--for it is written, "Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree" --

    please note the past tense of the words in bold... there are 2 redemptions, spiritual and Physical, you me and every other beleiver have already attained spiritual redemption ;) you and i and everyone else are going to die a mortal death just like anyone else.


    LOL!!! does this mean your body is immortal NOW? if you are i would very much like to see your present immortal glorified state.

    i am saying the MORTAL body is dead (that is why it is "mortal", it is gonna die someday), and after the MORTAL bodies of believers die those same bodies are raised again and made perfect,as per 1 cor 15 this is why it is a called a RESURRECTION...the bringing to life what was dead before! :)

    the physical evidence shows your wrong.
     
  19. The Messenger

    The Messenger Member

    103
    +0
    quote:
    Originally posted by The Messenger
    let's look at Romans 8:11 again and just for kicks i'll use the singular "body"

    Romans 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal BODY -->ALSO<-- through his Spirit which dwells in you

    actually if you look singular OR plural it compares Christ's resurrection to our own.

    Romans 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal BODY -->ALSO<-- through his Spirit which dwells in you

    this is a clear reference and comparison to Yeshua's resurrection. it says what it says life will be givin to our mortal bodies ALSO. to say otherwise is to rewrite scripture...Just keep the text the way Paul wrote it. :D
     
  20. GW

    GW Veteran

    +58
    Christian
    Nope. You are wrong in the worst kinda way here. Really, really wrong.

    The discussion of awaiting the adoption of OUR BODY in Romans 8:23-25 speaks of the saints who were all groaning together waiting for the adoption of sons. Romans 8:21-25 is parallel to Romans 8:14-16. The Spirit of adoption was given by which they cried out "ABBA FATHER" as they groaned for adoption. According to the passage of 8:14-17, they were coming out of bondage to the Law of Moses and into the adoption as children and heirs with Christ. ANYONE who knows Paul knows this is parallel to Galatians 4:1-10 and Galatians 5:1-5:

    Galatians 4:1-10; 5:1-5
    Now I say, that the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ ... But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days and months and times and years. I am afraid of you , lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain... Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.


    Sorry. You set yourself up for the spike. I had to do it. Romans chapter 8 has not one single thing to do with the Resurrection of the Dead out of Hades. The "adoption, the redemption of OUR BODY (singluar)" in Romans 8:14-25 is that redemption out of the bondage of the Law as righteousness with God and is precisely parallel to Galatians 4:1-10/5:1-5. Paul's churches were struggling to break free from the bondage and corruption to the Law and many were not making it out of that bondage. They were fighting the corruption as they constantly were getting entangled back into the "yoke of bondage." As Paul asked them, "But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days and months and times and years. I am afraid of you , lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain"

    Brother, they were NOT adopted yet. They were NOT delivered out from the bondage of corruption to the glorious liberty of the children of God yet. They were NOT saved yet. Instead, they were all struggling with leaving Moses behind as a system of Righteousness with God and entering Christ as a system of Righteousness with God. Paul longed for the day when the Mosaic Economy and Temple would be destroyed and ALL of them would be free.
     
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