Futurists vs Preterists

GW · Apr 19, 2002

Originally posted by Phoenix
So Catchup, if someone were to ask you today where your joy is and what you hope for, what would you say ? Without using the answer that Christ will return in Glory.

Very good question. I look forward to the answer from many here. Catchup?

The pemissism and sarcasm dripping from many of the posts here in response to preterist optimism is very, very, revealing.

Faith Hope and Love! Christ is the prince of the Kings of the earth now! (Rev 1:5)

GW · Apr 19, 2002

Originally posted by The Messenger
and I know that my Redeemer lives, and at last he will stand upon the earth; and after my skin has been thus destroyed, then from my flesh I shall see God!

Job's skin was destroyed by his boils from satan that covered his body from head to toe (Job 2:7) and at the end Job's Vindicator did "rise upon the dust" and Job saw Him as he hoped and promised would happen (Job 38:1 and Job 42:5). His vindicator (Go-el) came and vindicated Job's cause (Job 42:7-10).

GW · Apr 19, 2002

Originally posted by The Messenger
my joy is the Lord within me! the very love of God is food for my soul, and water i have tasted so i never thirst again! and my hope is that my faith through the grace of God will bring me eternal life, the LORD has promised good to me and i know he will complete the good work he began in me

I see a lot of "me" and "I" in your statment here. Don't you believe that all those good things He does FOR YOU will in turn do good to your family, your Church, your neighborhood, your city, your work and your country? I do.

If not, then you best check your spiritual pulse.

GW · Apr 19, 2002

Originally posted by Mandy
I believe in a literal thousand year reign. The word thousand in the Greek means a plural of uncertain affinity or a literal thousand, so I agree that "thousand" is not always to be taken as literal. If the reign of Christ is not literal, then how would Rev. 20 be interpretted?

Some have interpreted it as the time until a final return of Jesus Christ since in fact is does mean a plural of uncertain affinity. Others see it as a symbol of the 1000 years of the Davidic Monarchy (from David to Christ). Still others see it as symbolizing the Advent of Christ.

I personally see it as a symbol that showed that Christ fulfilled the hopes of the Davidic Monarchy that Christ would fill David's office as King (Luke 1:68-69; Acts 2:30-36; 1 Tim 1:17; Mark 11:10; ) and restore the tabernacle of David (Acts 15:16-17) so that all the gentile nations could join in to the true worship of Jehovah. The 1000 years shows a completed Monarchy instead of the fact that the Monarchy had fallen into ruin in the 500s BC via the Babylonian captivity.

GW · Apr 19, 2002

Some have interpreted the "1000 years" as the time until a final return of Jesus Christ since in fact the greek word does mean a plural of uncertain affinity. Others see it as a symbol of the 1000 years of the Davidic Monarchy (measure of time from David to Christ). Still others see it as symbolizing the Advent of Christ during the end of the Old Covenant period..

I agree with the one I put in bold up above. I personally see it as a symbol that showed that Christ fulfilled the hopes of the Davidic Monarchy that Christ would fill David's office as King (Luke 1:68-69; Acts 2:30-36; 1 Tim 1:17; Mark 11:10; ) and restore the tabernacle of David so that all the gentile nations could join in to the true worship of Jehovah (Acts 15:16-17). The "1000 years" shows a completed Monarchy instead of the fact that the Monarchy had fallen into ruin in the 500s via the Babylonian captivity. So the hope of the Davidic Kingdom that had broken down into ruin is seen as COMPLETE because the Messiah fulfilled it as a legitimate King and son of David to rule Israel at the end of the Old Covenant Age.

The Messenger · Apr 19, 2002

Originally posted by GW
I see a lot of "me" and "I" in your statment here. Don't you believe that all those good things He does FOR YOU will in turn do good to your family, your Church, your neighborhood, your city, your work and your country? I do.

If not, then you best check your spiritual pulse.

LOL!!! very subtle inference there GW...check your own pulse...

Originally posted by GW
Job's skin was destroyed by his boils from satan that covered his body from head to toe (Job 2:7) and at the end Job's Vindicator did "rise upon the dust" and Job saw Him as he hoped and promised would happen (Job 38:1 and Job 42:5). His vindicator (Go-el) came and vindicated Job's cause (Job 42:7-10).

Job did not know the Lord would appear then, he thought he was going to die(Job 30:20-23,27) and the broader responsabilites of God as redeemer(go'el) were what he was referring to here, as Job's expectation of death shows he did not know God would appear to him so soon (in fact that very day at the end of the conversation with his 3 friends) i stand by my use in the context that Job was referring to "in the flesh seeing God" after he died.

nice try GW, but no go.

if you want to debate the resurrection, then come back to the resurrection thread, and i will instruct you in the truth some more!

The Messenger · Apr 19, 2002

Originally posted by Phoenix
Would you mind giving a brief explanation on this one Messenger ?

it shows that my views do not quite fit in any one of the listed views

The Messenger · Apr 19, 2002

i beleive the millenium is literal, there is no symbolic imagery here(except to those that find EVERYTHING "symbolic) and that in the 1000 year timeline, very specific events are outlined, and the fact that the 1000 years end shows this to be a finite amount of time. with further events occuring after it.

The Messenger · Apr 19, 2002

Originally posted by GW
Some have interpreted it as the time until a final return of Jesus Christ since in fact is does mean a plural of uncertain affinity. Others see it as a symbol of the 1000 years of the Davidic Monarchy (from David to Christ). Still others see it as symbolizing the Advent of Christ.

real slick distortion GW... the MEANING is NOT "plural of uncertain affinity." that is the origin of the word

the actual definition givin is "thousand" the accompanying word in Rev 20 "etos" is defined as "year"

i could take the word origin from "etos" like you did from "chilioi" and say it means "apparently a primary word" and it wont make much sense...

it almost looks like your resorting to deception... this after in another thread you said to me "check your spiritual pulse"? i wonder how fast you will edit that..

here is some more of revelation you should read...

Revelation 22:18-19
I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city , which are described in this book

The Messenger · Apr 19, 2002

Originally posted by GW
Some have interpreted the "1000 years" as the time until a final return of Jesus Christ since in fact the greek word does mean a plural of uncertain affinity . Others see it as a symbol of the 1000 years of the Davidic Monarchy (measure of time from David to Christ). Still others see it as symbolizing the Advent of Christ during the end of the Old Covenant period..

real slick distortion GW... the MEANING is NOT "plural of uncertain affinity." that is the origin of the word

the actual definition givin is "thousand" the accompanying word in Rev 20 "etos" is defined as "year"

i could take the word origin from "etos" like you did from "chilioi" and say it means "apparently a primary word"

it almost looks like your resorting to deception... this after in another thread you said to me "check your spiritual pulse"?

better check your own...mine is fine!

GW · Apr 19, 2002

Originally posted by The Messenger

actually GW, even in singular form the meaning is the same, in fact in singular for it is a reference to a "multitude" or group of people as per the Strong's definitions i provided, that is why Paul says "ourselves" and we" in conjunction with it. so you see i am not changing scripture at all

If you are not changing scripture, then why do you make it plural when the text is not plural? That's changing the text. If it means the same thing, then why do you continue to change the text from singluar to plural? The text says "waiting for the adoption, the redemption of OUR BODY" (singular), meaning the redemption of THE CHURCH (Eph 1:14).

Please quit changing the text. Rather, just give your interpretation.

Originally posted by The Messenger
you're missing the fact that in Galatians 4 the present spiritual redemption is mentioned by words like "had" and "sent" but in romans the future physical redemption is mentioned with the spiritual redemption.

You are presupposing TWO redemptions. The bible does not teach TWO, but only one. The redemption does not happen until the second coming:

Luke 21:28
But WHEN these things begin to happen, look up, and lift up your heads, because your redemption is near."

They were NOT yet posessors of the redemption. They merely had the EARNEST of it in the Holy Spirit:

Eph 1:13-14
after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL THE REDEMPTION of "the purchased possession" [i.e., "The Church" - Acts 20:28]

The Church was not yet redeemed according to Eph 1:13-14! The Church is the purchased possession that was not yet redeemed! That was the "BODY" that was awaiting redemption.

The Church had the Holy Spirit granted as an EARNEST of its redemption UNTIL the actual redemption was granted! All they had was the Holy Spirit, yet one that gave them the hope that someday they would experience redemption:

Eph 4:30
grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed UNTIL the day of redemption.

Originally posted by The Messenger
also i cannot understand why you in one argument keep saying "they were under law" and the next say "they were redeemed from law" continually contradicting yourself.

The only way one could be redeemed from the Law of Moses is if one escaped the bondage of it. The early Christians were clearly were trapped in bondage to it, showing that they were NOT redeemed from it. You try to say they were redeemed, but Paul is not so sure:

Gal 4:9-11
But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again TO BE IN BONDAGE? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour IN VAIN.

They are clearly NOT redeemed from the Law of Moses at this point in the 50s AD, but are still under its bondage. Ephesians 1:13-14 clearly states that the purchased possession of the church body was not yet redeemed.

Mandy · Apr 19, 2002

Originally posted by The Messenger
i beleive the millenium is literal, there is no symbolic imagery here(except to those that find EVERYTHING "symbolic) and that in the 1000 year timeline, very specific events are outlined, and the fact that the 1000 years end shows this to be a finite amount of time. with further events occuring after it.

I agree.

GW · Apr 19, 2002

Chilioi is a PLURAL. Thousand(s)

GW · Apr 19, 2002

chilioi is PLURAL - thousand(s)

Hishandmaiden · Apr 19, 2002

I got a suggestion. Why not divide this forum into preterists and futurists?

davo · Apr 19, 2002

Originally quoted by Catchup
I think I need more help understanding from my new teachers

GwDavoParousia70

Please talk to me. But do not quote from the Bible...

Catchup, thanks for the invite, and as requested I won't baffle you with the bible or scare you with scripture, I would hate for you to be confronted with an inspired quote -we can't have you thinking the end of the world is upon you. As for being your Teacher, I might pass thanks, I might feel just a tad uncomfortable about being associated with any of your current mindset

I see from your first post that your understanding of covenant eschatology is but a reflection of your general understanding of things eschatological -not quite there, but I can tell you're ok with that so that's fine.

I'm intrigued but the constant incredulity and scoffing by yourself and your fellow futurists at the prospect that Christ could possibly be here in person -kind of reminds me of something I read somewhere about someone saying "hah! -where is your Christ and his promised coming! -I don't see him, things are as always they were!!" hhmmm, maybe for the perceptively challenged "seeing is believing."

But hey here's a novel idea maybe, just maybe, the collective fellowship of believers actually IS the Body Of Christ in the earth -shock horror could it be true, could I have read that somewhere, can I trust what I've read, or should I explain it away as something other or less than what it says??

Anyway Catchup, I'll leave the rest to your imagination -I know it works well

Oh and if you're feeling inclined toward that "ignore button" -if that meets your need, be my guest -you wont miss one less teacher.

davo

Susan · Apr 19, 2002

AMEN to that

Willis Deal · Apr 19, 2002

Mani, this will be my last post to you. I recognize the futility of continuing so I'll wrap this up. Death is not mentioned in Genesis prior to God's warning to man not to eat the fruit. The next time death appears is in context of the curse which falls upon Adam for eating the fruit. The verse clearly says 'Because you have done this', and 'from dust thou art and to dust thou shalt return' indicating that God is talking about PHYSICAL death and going on to explain to Adam the full consequences, that he would lose his mortal body. There isn't any indication from the BIBLE that Adam was to ever die a physical death before he sined. But the PHYSICAL death is tied directly to all the other curses which came about BECAUSE of Adam's sin. And please note before you start tossing around 'the traditions of men'. PHYSICAL death is the only sort of death mentioned in GENESIS as a result of sin. There is NO mention of a 'spiritual' death.

I do not believe God lied, and showed from the bible where God delayed judgement because of his mercy.

My physical death trumps your spiritual death, fully supported from the bible.

End of discussion.

TheBear · Apr 19, 2002

The foundation of preterism is their use of the allegorical method of Bible interpretation. This basically means that they will spiritualize any piece of Scripture that does not fit within their belief system of preterism. There are many ways to dismiss Scripture. You could take a pair of scissors and simply cut out the verses you don't like or that don't fit within your belief system. Or, you can use the allegorical method to interpret the Bible. Both methods essentially do the same thing. The end result is the Word of God is nullified as literal Scripture is spiritualized and then dismissed.

John

TheBear · Apr 19, 2002

Originally posted by rpggal
I got a suggestion. Why not divide this forum into preterists and futurists?

Ummm....Why don't we divide this forum even further, where only like minds will be posting one to another, therefore having the 'preaching to the choir' effect.?

John

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