Full Preterist Safe House

[Tra Phull]

Anyway, LightandTruth, welcome to C.F. !!!
Glad you are here !!!

 

[LightandTruth]

So here we are in the eschatological maelstrom.
Many eschatological are plausible - Full Preterism, Partial Preterism, pre mid post and pre-wrath Premillennialism, Historic Premillennialism that declares the 70 weeks as already over...

Amillennialism is plausible (and btw not in conflict with partial Preterism. In apocalyptic literature outside the canonical, I have seen 400 years rather than 1000 years as a period equivalent to a "Millenium", again, I can't remember sources, but TWO non- canonical apocalypse had a 400 year "Millennium"

Post-Millennialism boggles my mind, but even it, like all eschatologies, is plausible if certain things are granted. None of the eschatological systems just simply "pull things out of the Air" - serious Christians see different things in the Bible concerning end times, they just do.

I do not see Full Preterism as "heresy" because of the way I define heresy, to me, it deals with the deity, nature(s), PRE-existence of Christ - different theologies can be as wrong as all get out to me, yet not heretical, so perhaps posters will stop saying FULLS are HAIRY-TICKS

They're not - they may be not in compliance with Creeds, but as was said somewhere, even at C.F. is a forum called No CREED but Christ

I happen to be gung ho Nicene Creed and Apostles Creed, and Full Preterism Doran' t jive with them, or other liturgical statements like

Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again

Good thoughts on the general subject of eschatology as a whole and the various views. I am certainly no longer a fan of the Creeds (for obvious reasons) although I do agree with you that the fundamental doctrines distinguishing between a genuine Christian and those who erroneously identify themselves as such are these: 1. Who is Jesus Christ? True Christians believe He is both God and man. God become flesh. Those who do not believe this and believe He was just some higher created being (angel) or just a very spiritual man, are NOT true Christians. The Bible does NOT support that latter view and I can readily demonstrate that to be the case. In fact, that is the only point I will argue with JWs and the like now. There is really no point in discussing anything else. The other essential point of doctrine establishing whether one is truly a Christian (in Biblical terms) or not is 2. What is the Bible? True Christians believe it is in the inerrant, Holy Spirit inspired (word for word) word of God. Those who are not Christians believe it is just a collection of wise writings compiled by fallible men.

I hold both essential points of doctrine as being true (according to the first statement in each case). So in that sense, I am NOT a "heretic" but in the sense that I reject the Creeds, particularly in relation to their stated beliefs regarding the so-called "Second Coming" or "Return" of Jesus Christ, I AM "heretical". I don't subscribe to the mainstream "orthodoxy" in my eschatology - which DOES have interesting ramifications in terms of other, related doctrines.

 

[LightandTruth]

Anyway, LightandTruth, welcome to C.F. !!!
Glad you are here !!!

Many thanks! I am too!

 

[LightandTruth]

Anto9us has changed over time - left board and reincarnated as Tra Phull - an "Extreme Partial Preterist"

I PMed you, LandT, to fill in more

Thanks for the update Tra Phull! I'll check my PM!

 

[robycop3]

There are so many ways to respond to this post so, respectfully, I will begin by adamantly disagreeing with your final statement (according to its implied inference). Jesus Christ will NOT be "seen by all" (if you are referring to all of mankind alive at the time of his return). I challenge you to examine that text in Revelation 1 with me. I think you will be shocked by the actual, accurate exegesis and its implications.

SCRIPTURE says every eye shall see Him, even those whp pierced Him. Doesn't leave room for any other reading.

 

[LightandTruth]

SCRIPTURE says every eye shall see Him, even those whp pierced Him. Doesn't leave room for any other reading.

I understand that your convictions are expressing themselves in a very dogmatic way here sir... but you are absolutely incorrect. There is, in fact, room for a much more accurate understanding quite opposed to yours. And your citation of Revelation 1:7 reveals this to be the case rather clearly, "7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." (KJV)

On one's initial reading of this verse, it would APPEAR that the universal terms "every eye" SEEM to indicate an all-inclusive reference to all of mankind. But on closer inspection, it becomes apparent that this is not the case at all. For starters, there is a SEPARATE group (which would automatically be included IF the "every eye" group WAS a reference to "all of mankind") referred to as "they also which pierced him" (a reference to the Romans directly involved in His crucifixion as well as the Jews and religious leaders who orchestrated it). This group would be, by obvious inference, already included in the first group and there would be no need to identify them as a separate group IF the first group included EVERYONE in the human race - which, clearly, it does not. So who is the "every eye" group?

If you have ever been involved in a tour on a bus or in a group of any kind where the leader states, "At our next stop, EVERYONE will get a chance to refresh themselves and use the bathroom if necessary...", clearly that leader is NOT referring to "everyone in the human race". He is using a "universal" term to include "everyone in this group" or "everyone within the range of my voice". In the same limited sense, the "every eye" group John (and the Holy Spirit through him) were referring to were the Christians to whom the Book of Revelation was written originally (identified in verse 4). "Every eye" AMONG THOSE CHRISTIANS would witness Jesus Christ's return "in clouds" (visible only to these people, and veiled from everyone else).

The phrase "all kindreds of the earth" is better translated directly from the Greek as "all tribes of the land", referring exclusively to the scattered tribes of the Nation of Israel as it existed throughout the Diaspora and the Roman Empire at that time.

Hopefully that clears up a few details for you there robycop3.

 

[robycop3]

I understand that your convictions are expressing themselves in a very dogmatic way here sir... but you are absolutely incorrect. There is, in fact, room for a much more accurate understanding quite opposed to yours. And your citation of Revelation 1:7 reveals this to be the case rather clearly, "7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." (KJV)

On one's initial reading of this verse, it would APPEAR that the universal terms "every eye" SEEM to indicate an all-inclusive reference to all of mankind. But on closer inspection, it becomes apparent that this is not the case at all. For starters, there is a SEPARATE group (which would automatically be included IF the "every eye" group WAS a reference to "all of mankind") referred to as "they also which pierced him" (a reference to the Romans directly involved in His crucifixion as well as the Jews and religious leaders who orchestrated it). This group would be, by obvious inference, already included in the first group and there would be no need to identify them as a separate group IF the first group included EVERYONE in the human race - which, clearly, it does not. So who is the "every eye" group?

If you have ever been involved in a tour on a bus or in a group of any kind where the leader states, "At our next stop, EVERYONE will get a chance to refresh themselves and use the bathroom if necessary...", clearly that leader is NOT referring to "everyone in the human race". He is using a "universal" term to include "everyone in this group" or "everyone within the range of my voice". In the same limited sense, the "every eye" group John (and the Holy Spirit through him) were referring to were the Christians to whom the Book of Revelation was written originally (identified in verse 4). "Every eye" AMONG THOSE CHRISTIANS would witness Jesus Christ's return "in clouds" (visible only to these people, and veiled from everyone else).

The phrase "all kindreds of the earth" is better translated directly from the Greek as "all tribes of the land", referring exclusively to the scattered tribes of the Nation of Israel as it existed throughout the Diaspora and the Roman Empire at that time.

Hopefully that clears up a few details for you there robycop3.

Sorry, Chief, but Jesus isn't running a tour bus. When HE said "every eye", that's what He meant.

Obviously, those who pierced Him are now dead, & He didn't return during their lifetimes, which shows they'll see His return from hades.

And Jesus didn't say "all Jews & Israelis" or "all Christians" or all any one group. He said "all" & "every", PERIOD. Remember, the same God who made the Israeli also made the bushman.

The pret view is the incorrect view here, proven incorrect by the obvious fact that the events they SAY have already occurred, have NOT already occurred, which is proven by reality and history.

 

[LightandTruth]

Sorry, Chief, but Jesus isn't running a tour bus. When HE said "every eye", that's what He meant.

Obviously, those who pierced Him are now dead, & He didn't return during their lifetimes, which shows they'll see His return from hades.

And Jesus didn't say "all Jews & Israelis" or "all Christians" or all any one group. He said "all" & "every", PERIOD. Remember, the same God who made the Israeli also made the bushman.

The pret view is the incorrect view here, proven incorrect by the obvious fact that the events they SAY have already occurred, have NOT already occurred, which is proven by reality and history.

Apology accepted old feller! And appropriate! You're pretty much wrong on every count there! Jesus chose the LIMITED "universal" phrase "every eye" to refer to "every eye among you to whom I have addressed this book". This is obvious due to the fact that "those who pierced him" were included as a SEPARATE group from the "every eye" group, which they wouldn't be if the first group referred to all of mankind.

Jesus did, in fact, keep his word (as promised in Luke 21 and the other synoptic gospels) concerning his return within the lifetimes of that original generation of Christians. Josephus has recorded in detail the fulfillment of all the signs prior to His return as having happened at that time, and the Book of Acts likewise confirms this. Reality and history SUPPORT the Full Preterist position. The fact that you don't know your history or Bible well enough to realize this does not change that fact.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Sorry, Chief, but Jesus isn't running a tour bus. When HE said "every eye", that's what He meant.

Obviously, those who pierced Him are now dead, & He didn't return during their lifetimes, which shows they'll see His return from hades.

And Jesus didn't say "all Jews & Israelis" or "all Christians" or all any one group. He said "all" & "every", PERIOD. Remember, the same God who made the Israeli also made the bushman.

The pret view is the incorrect view here, proven incorrect by the obvious fact that the events they SAY have already occurred, have NOT already occurred, which is proven by reality and history.

Your argument is inconclusive. The Greek word "kai" may be explicative. It may be qualifying the term "every eye."

"Every eye shall see him, THAT IS (kai), those who pierced him...."

I am not a Full Preterist. It's that your interpretation makes no sense. In order for every eye to see Jesus when he returns the earth would have to be flat and Jesus would have to have a humongous body. Your interpretation is grotesque when you really think about it.

 

[Tra Phull]

Isaiah 40:5

"And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together."

 

[Jack Terrence]

Isaiah 40:5

"And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together."

It is talking about salvation. That is the context. It is saying that all nations of men, that is, Jews and Gentiles shall see it together. It is not saying that every individual will see God's salvation. That would be Universalism.

 

[Tra Phull]

Well I am not Universalist.
To SEE the glory of the Lord might not be to be saved, some might wail because of it.

 

[parousia70]

Not much of a Safe House here is it?

Sorry, Chief, but Jesus isn't running a tour bus. When HE said "every eye", that's what He meant.

Note that you have supplied no scriptural instruction to apply a polar opposite, LITERAL interpretation to the NT Phrase "he is coming on the clouds and every eye shall see" to the NON Literal Interpretation you yourself apply to the OT Phrases "God rides a swift cloud" and was "seen by the eyes of all nations".

Obviously, those who pierced Him are now dead, & He didn't return during their lifetimes, which shows they'll see His return from hades.

I don't think you realize you here are asserting it is therefore a SPIRITUAL seeing, and not a Literal one with Physical eyeballs..

 

[Tra Phull]

No, not very safe at all.

 

[robycop3]

Not much of a Safe House here is it?



Note that you have supplied no scriptural instruction to apply a polar opposite, LITERAL interpretation to the NT Phrase "he is coming on the clouds and every eye shall see" to the NON Literal Interpretation you yourself apply to the OT Phrases "God rides a swift cloud" and was "seen by the eyes of all nations".



I don't think you realize you here are asserting it is therefore a SPIRITUAL seeing, and not a Literal one with Physical eyeballs..

Well, you must be a preterist, as prets have the habit of reducing certain Scriptures to "figurative/symbolic" status to try to cover up the fact that the events they SAY have already occurred have NOT yet occurred.

Most Scripture is literal; otherwise, men could make it read any way they want, to fit their weekly doctrines.

 

[mkgal1]

The total destruction of the Temple in 70 AD - in which Jesus foretold - was about as literal as one can get (it is also verifiable).

Mark 13:2 - Do you see all these great buildings?” Jesus replied. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”​

 

[parousia70]

Well, you must be a preterist, as prets have the habit of reducing certain Scriptures to "figurative/symbolic" status to try to cover up the fact that the events they SAY have already occurred have NOT yet occurred.

Most Scripture is literal; otherwise, men could make it read any way they want, to fit their weekly doctrines.

That's funny coming from someone who happily reduces and spiritualizes into meaningless metaphor the scriptural terms "shortly, Soon, about to take place, in a very little while, without delay, Swiftly, Near, at the doors, At Hand, etc"....

you are no literalist.

As I pointed out, when you find phrases such as "god rides a swift cloud and was seen by the eyes of all nations" used in the OT to describe the fall of a nation, you happily understand that as metaphor... yet you completely, arbitrarily apply a polar opposite, Hyper literal interpretation to the same language when you find it in the NT, in the total and complete absence of any scriptural instruction to do so...

You let your position determine what scripture says... You should instead let Scripture inform your position.

 

[Tra Phull]

No Gogging when you should be Magogging.

Originally, Gog was a ruler, and Magog was a nation.

But in Revelation, both Gog and Magog are nations - at the four corners of the earth!!!

The literal/spiritual issue goes on - unto ages of ages.

 

[Jack Terrence]

That's funny coming from someone who happily reduces and spiritualizes into meaningless metaphor the scriptural terms "shortly, soon, about to take place, in a very little while, without delay, swiftly, near, at the doors, at hand, etc"....

you are no literalist.

As I pointed out, when you find phrases such as "god rides a swift cloud and was seen by the eyes of all nations" used in the OT to describe the fall of a nation, you happily understand that as metaphor... yet you completely, arbitrarily apply a polar opposite, Hyper literal interpretation to the same language when you find it in the NT, in the total and complete absence of any scriptural instruction to do so...

You let your position determine what scripture says... You should instead let Scripture inform your position.

Well, the hyper prets do not consistently take "shortly, soon, about to take place, in a very little while, without delay, swiftly, Near, at the doors, At Hand" literally either. That's one reason I find their arguments uncompelling.

 

[robycop3]

That's funny coming from someone who happily reduces and spiritualizes into meaningless metaphor the scriptural terms "shortly, Soon, about to take place, in a very little while, without delay, Swiftly, Near, at the doors, At Hand, etc"....

you are no literalist.

As I pointed out, when you find phrases such as "god rides a swift cloud and was seen by the eyes of all nations" used in the OT to describe the fall of a nation, you happily understand that as metaphor... yet you completely, arbitrarily apply a polar opposite, Hyper literal interpretation to the same language when you find it in the NT, in the total and complete absence of any scriptural instruction to do so...

You let your position determine what scripture says... You should instead let Scripture inform your position.

Sorry, Chief, but the ONLY argument that could sustain preterism is to show **PROOF/EVIDENCE/documentation** that the events they SAY have happened, HAVE actually already happened. Such proof is completely lacking, so no matter how "soon/shortly", etc. prets SAY those events occurred, the REALITY is that they have NOT yet occurred !