Full Preterism-Where is the scriptural evidence?

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by interpreter

We are now experiencing skin cancer, red tides and global warming. And the Euphrates was dry on 9/11, None of these things occurred in the first century. But the Revelation indeed began unfolding soon after it was written, in 312AD.
​

Pure assumption and speculation to avoid 1st century Jerusalem as being that City in Revelation.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0831.htm

After the taking up of our Lord Jesus Christ, I John was alone upon Mount Tabor, where also He showed us His undefiled Godhead;
and as I was not able to stand, I fell upon the ground, and prayed to the Lord, and said: O Lord my God, who hast deemed me worthy to be Your servant, hear my voice, and teach me about Your coming........................

None of the apostles prophesied skin cancer, red tides or global warming. Their prophecies were related to the judgment of the harlot, Old Covenant Israel, and the end of the Jewish age.

It seems the further we get from the actual context of Israel's last days and her covenantal end, we hear more and more speculative information that has no relevance to Scripture whatsoever.

Jacob/Israel calls his sons over to tell them about the "last days" after the Messiah comes.
Preterism is gaining more and more adherents as more time passes [going on almost 2000yrs or almost 20 generations]

KJV Search Results for "last days"

Gen 49:1
And Jacob H3290 called H7121 unto his sons, H1121 and said, H559
Gather yourselves together, H622 that I may tell H5046 you that which shall befall H7122 you in the last H319 days. H3117

Heb 1:2
Hath G2980G0 in G1909 these G5130 last G2078 days G2250
spoken G2980 unto us G2254 by G1722 His Son,
G5207 whom G3739 He hath appointed G5087 heir G2818 of all things, G3956 by G1223 whom G3739 also G2532 he made G4160 the worlds; G165

THE LAST DAYS - Preterism and Preterist soteriology; Preterism and Preterist eschatology and prophecy, the last days, and the Second Coming
[SIZE=+3]THE LAST DAYS[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]By [/SIZE]Ward Fenley

There are many today who believe we are in the last days because they see all of the middle-east turmoil, technological advancements, "new world order" etc. They claim that these are fulfillments of Biblical prophecy that prove that we are in the last days. An example of this would be Jack Van Impe's statement in July that the way that people will worship the "image" of the Beast is through the scientific achievement of "cloning."...................

With the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple, Jesus Christ brought to complete establishment the eternal Jerusalem from above. The last days concerned Israel and its covenant and nation. We are now in the age that was about to come, the everlasting Covenant through the blood of that great Shepherd of the sheep.................

http://www.preterism.info/last-days.htm
We Are Not Living in the “last days”

All this occurred within the lifetime of Christ’s contemporaries.
Most Christians seem to believe Jesus is coming back to set up a kingdom on Earth. But here, we see Christ plainly promising to take his disciples back to heaven. Jesus reigns from heaven, not Earth.
Sadly, Christians awaiting the return of Christ are living in a fantasy world almost 2,000 years behind the times. If Jesus failed to return in the first century when he predicted he would, why would any sane person expect him to return now?
So, how many hours has it been since John declared, “it is the last hour?” John likely wrote before 70 C.E. No commentary places his letter past the mid-nineties. If we start from 95 and count forward to 2012, we arrive at 1,917 years.

24 hours x 365 days x 1,917 years = 16,792,920 hours​

According to the common belief, Jesus is late by almost 17 million hours! Certainly, Christians are the most forgiving people in the world. Presumably, this could go on for another 17 million hours, and most Christians would still be claiming they were living in the last days


Randall Otto : Jesus the Preterist: a review of R. C. Sproul's The Last Days According to Jesus - Quodlibet Journal
Jesus the Preterist: a review of R. C. Sproul's The Last Days According to Jesus

The stated purpose of Sproul's book is "to evaluate moderate preterism and its view of eschatology" (p. 24). "Preterism" is a method of interpretation which has been gaining an increasing number of adherents, though many may still be unfamiliar with it. "Preterists argue not only that the kingdom is a present reality, but also that in a real historical sense the parousia has already occurred" (p. 24) in the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in AD 70. [6] This is a view perhaps nowhere better demonstrated than in the 561-page book by the British Congregationalist J. Stuart Russell entitled The Parousia, first published in 1878, the second edition (1887) of which was reprinted by Baker in 1983..........

Conclusion:

Sproul never engages the issues he raises against full preterists; instead he simply assumes the traditional position as impregnable.
It is, however, because the traditional position has evaded these matters, either by failing to employ a thoroughgoing grammatico-historical exegesis or by resorting to dogmatic affirmations, that there is a growing reexamination of biblical eschatology.

It is essential that this continue and that partial preterists seriously engage these and other issues which Sproul has largely overlooked.
What, for example, is the basis for claiming that Jesus' coming in AD 70 was "a parousia coming of Christ," "not the parousia" (p. 158)?

There is no grammatical basis for this distinction.
Every time the word parousia is used in the NT with reference to Christ, it is used of the parousia, i.e., the article is always used (Matt 24:3, 27, 37, 39; 1 Cor 15:23; 16:17; 1 Thess 2:19; 3:13, 4:15; 5:23; 2 Thess 2:1, 8; Jas 5:7-8; 2 Pet 3:4; 1 John 2:28; 2 Pet 1:16 (Sharp's rule); 3:12; BAGD, s.v. "parousia," 2ba).



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[interpreter]

None of the apostles prophesied skin cancer, red tides or global warming. Their prophecies were related to the judgment of the harlot, Old Covenant Israel, and the end of the Jewish age.

It seems the further we get from the actual context of Israel's last days and her covenantal end, we hear more and more speculative information that has no relevance to Scripture whatsoever.

John prophesied skin cancer, red tides and global warming. The great harlot that he prophesied of is Moscow which sits on 7 hills and many waters (5 seas). Your interpretation is laughable. Jerusalem does not sit on 7 hills and many waters.

 

[A New World]

John prophesied skin cancer, red tides and global warming. The great harlot that he prophesied of is Moscow which sits on 7 hills and many waters (5 seas). Your interpretation is laughable. Jerusalem does not sit on 7 hills and many waters.

Why not provide Scripture to back up your claims of skin cancer, red tides and global warming prophesied by John?

Moscow was never in covenant with God, Old Covenant Israel was. Moscow never had a prophet sent to her warning her of the events of her last days, Israel had many. Israel was the harlot, mystery Babylon, Jerusalem was that great city, she was in covenant with God and received her promised judgment in AD 70.

You will never find Moscow in Scripture. However, the entire Bible is about God's covenants with Israel, her judgments and her ultimate redemption.

John gave statements clearly and explicitly showing the timing of the events of the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. The appointed time of the end was about to be, it was near, it would be shortly and soon. (Rev. 1:1-3, 19; 3:10; 22:6-12)

Your speculation is incorrect both chronologically and geologically.

Was Jerusalem a city on seven hills?

The Seven Hills of Jerusalem

The City of Jerusalem as it existed in the time of Christ Jesus was also reckoned to be the "City of Seven Hills." This fact was well recognized in Jewish circles. In the Pirke de-Rabbi Eliezer, an 8th century midrashic narrative (section 10), the writer mentioned without commentary (showing that the understanding was well known and required no defense) that "Jerusalem is situated on seven hills" (recorded in The Book of Legends, edited by Bialik and Ravnitzky, p. 371, paragraph 111). And, so it was. Those "seven hills" are easy to identify.

If one starts with the Mount of Olives just to the east of the main City of Jerusalem (but still reckoned to be located within the environs of Jerusalem), there are three summits to that Mount of Olives:

The northern summit (hill) is called Scopus [Hill One],

The middle summit (hill) was called Nob [Hill Two],

The highest point of Olivet itself, and the southern summit (hill) was called in the Holy Scriptures the "Mount of Corruption" or "Mount of Offence" [Hill Three] (II Kings 23:13).

On the middle ridge between the Kedron and the Tyropoeon Valleys there was (formerly) in the south "Mount Zion" [Hill Four] (the original "Mount Zion" and not the later southwest hill that was later called by that name),

The "Ophel Mount" [Hill Five],

To the north of that the "Rock" around which "Fort Antonia" was built [Hill Six],

And finally, there was the southwest hill itself [Hill Seven] that finally became known in the time of Simon the Hasmonean as the new "Mount Zion."

This makes "Seven Hills" in all.

 

[interpreter]

Why not provide Scripture to back up your claims of skin cancer, red tides and global warming prophesied by John?

Moscow was never in covenant with God, Old Covenant Israel was. Moscow never had a prophet sent to her warning her of the events of her last days, Israel had many. Israel was the harlot, mystery Babylon, Jerusalem was that great city, she was in covenant with God and received her promised judgment in AD 70.

You will never find Moscow in Scripture. However, the entire Bible is about God's covenants with Israel, her judgments and her ultimate redemption.

John gave statements clearly and explicitly showing the timing of the events of the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. The appointed time of the end was about to be, it was near, it would be shortly and soon. (Rev. 1:1-3, 19; 3:10; 22:6-12)

Your speculation is incorrect both chronologically and geologically.

Was Jerusalem a city on seven hills?

The Seven Hills of Jerusalem

The City of Jerusalem as it existed in the time of Christ Jesus was also reckoned to be the "City of Seven Hills." This fact was well recognized in Jewish circles. In the Pirke de-Rabbi Eliezer, an 8th century midrashic narrative (section 10), the writer mentioned without commentary (showing that the understanding was well known and required no defense) that "Jerusalem is situated on seven hills" (recorded in The Book of Legends, edited by Bialik and Ravnitzky, p. 371, paragraph 111). And, so it was. Those "seven hills" are easy to identify.

If one starts with the Mount of Olives just to the east of the main City of Jerusalem (but still reckoned to be located within the environs of Jerusalem), there are three summits to that Mount of Olives:

The northern summit (hill) is called Scopus [Hill One],

The middle summit (hill) was called Nob [Hill Two],

The highest point of Olivet itself, and the southern summit (hill) was called in the Holy Scriptures the "Mount of Corruption" or "Mount of Offence" [Hill Three] (II Kings 23:13).

On the middle ridge between the Kedron and the Tyropoeon Valleys there was (formerly) in the south "Mount Zion" [Hill Four] (the original "Mount Zion" and not the later southwest hill that was later called by that name),

The "Ophel Mount" [Hill Five],

To the north of that the "Rock" around which "Fort Antonia" was built [Hill Six],

And finally, there was the southwest hill itself [Hill Seven] that finally became known in the time of Simon the Hasmonean as the new "Mount Zion."

This makes "Seven Hills" in all.

LOL. there are only 3 capitals that sit on seven hills. They are Rome, Constantinople (called the second Rome) and Moscow (called the third Rome). Plus Moscow sits on 5 seas and was briefly aligned with Hitler the antichrist. Next, I suppose you will tell me that Jerusalem sits on many waters.
We are now experiencing the 7 last plagues such as skin cancer (see Rev. 16:1-2), the plague of red tides and fish kills (Rev. 16: 3), and global warming (Rev. 16:8-9).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by A New World

I'm not sure the CF rules will allow the following post. I was reading a thread in the orthodox area and realized I couldn't fully respond. I told the poster that I would post a response here.
​

Excellent understanding! I am sure glad I stumbled across this part of the forum. This is pure wisdom and understanding of the Word of God as He's shown me when He called me out of the Judo-Christian dispensationalism of modern theology. Thank you for your post

I see you are an MJ so in essence you are still in OC Judaism correct? Just wondering.

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
JESUS and PAUL vs the OC Judean Rulers

Matthew 26:4
and they together-counsel that Jesus to fraud/guile they should be laying hold of and may be killing Him.

2 Corin 6:17
wherefore come-forthout of midst ofthem! and be being separated! is saying Lord
and an unclean-thing no ye be touching! and I shall be accepting ye

Revelation 18:4
And I hear another voice out of the heaven saying "come forth! out of Her My people..............


.

 

[A New World]

LOL. there are only 3 capitals that sit on seven hills. They are Rome, Constantinople (called the second Rome) and Moscow (called the third Rome). Plus Moscow sits on 5 seas and was briefly aligned with Hitler the antichrist. Next, I suppose you will tell me that Jerusalem sits on many waters.
We are now experiencing the 7 last plagues such as skin cancer (see Rev. 16:1-2), the plague of red tides and fish kills (Rev. 16: 3), and global warming (Rev. 16:8-9).

Since you've missed the timing you've also missed the location.

Again, John wrote of events that were about to take place. The inspired apostle said they would be near, they would occur shortly and soon. Moscow has nothing to do with Bible prophecy.

I'm also pretty sure that John and his audiences were not concerned with skin cancer, red tides or global warming.

It's amazing how the futurist wanders from one speculative theory to another. Now that's laughable!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Since you've missed the timing you've also missed the location.

Again, John wrote of events that were about to take place.
The inspired apostle said they would be near, they would occur shortly and soon. Moscow has nothing to do with Bible prophecy......

It's amazing how the futurist wanders from one speculative theory to another. Now that's laughable!

Yeah.
Some of them are way out there, like they are in the twilight zone.

There is an interesting thread concerned with the Time and Speed shown in the NT, espcially in the book of Revelation, if any here are interested.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7830040/#post65934427
Why does Christ tell the churches he's coming "soon" in Revelation?

Originally Posted by topcare

Just what it says, He was coming soon and as you picked up it was in judgment in 70 AD
​

Originally Posted by squint

We also know that some renditions are 'quickly' not 'soon' so there is no need to overemphasize 'soon' as TIME and not SPEED.
​

Revelation uses both and I put up the greek words for each of them.

There are also different forms of those greek words used in the NT, so it is best just to look up each of those to get a better understanding of the meaning, IMHO.
Hope this helps......

Romans 16:20
The yet God of the Peace shall be crushing the Satan under the feet of ye in/en <1722> swiftness/tacei <5034>........................

Revelation 1:1
An-un-covering/veiling of Jesus Christ, which YAHWEH gives to Him to show to His bond-servants, which-things is binding to be becoming In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>...........
3 Happy the one reading and the ones hearing the Words of the Prophecy and keepings in it having been Written,
for the Time is NIGH/egguV <1451>. [Reve 22:6,10]

Revelation 22:6
And said to me: "These, the Words Faithful and True.
And Lord, the GOD of the spirits of the holy Prophets, commissions the messenger of Him to show to the bond-servents of Him which-things is binding to be becoming In/en <1722> Swiftness/tacei <5034>.
10 And he is saying to me "no thou should be sealing the Words of the Prophecy of this Scroll,
that the Time NIGH/egguV <1451> is" [Revelation 1:1,3]

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

1722. en en a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state),
5034. tachos takh'-os from the same as 5036; a brief space (of time), i.e. (with 1722 prefixed) in haste:--+ quickly, + shortly, + speedily.quickly (without delay)
5036. tachus takh-oos' of uncertain affinity; fleet, i.e. (figuratively) prompt or ready:--swift.

1451. eggus eng-goos' from a primary verb agcho (to squeeze or throttle; akin to the base of 43); near (literally or figuratively, of place or time):--from , at hand, near, nigh (at hand, unto), ready.

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[drstevej]

I am a futurist, but not a "this is that" er.

 

[A New World]

I'm very familiar with the Dispensationalist view since I was raised under that teaching. I recently came across a novel, maybe desperate, critique of Preterism that included the following statement:

"As such, this yet leaves one possibility . . . actually the only tenable position (though there can be a slight variation of a detail or two within the scenario of this only tenable position) . . . that Preterists may, and must, adopt under their absurd, isolated, pseudo-literal view of Matt. 24:34 (i.e., insofar as, His “contemporaries” would not all die or pass away till “all these things” of Matt. 24:4-32 have been fulfilled and the second coming of the Son of Man occurs):

That is, the Lord's declaration entails that He would, and has, miraculously kept some of His contemporaries alive for the past 2,000 years and will continue to do so until “all these things” of Matt. 24:4-32 have been fulfilled and the coming of the Son of Man occurs (these contemporaries include the very same Jewish disciples to whom the promise of Matt. 16:28 pertained). Where are they being kept alive? The text does not say, but they are presumably in Paradise/the third heaven. Thus, the Lord (in making good on His word that His contemporaries would not all pass away till “all these things” of Matt. 24:4-32 have been fulfilled and the coming of the Son of Man occurs) had these Jewish disciples taken up to heaven at some point (perhaps prior to, or upon, His ascension), and has been miraculously keeping them alive as such for the past 2,000 years—until He returns with them to establish His literal kingdom on earth upon the fulfillment of “all these things” in Daniel’s 70th week (or perhaps they return shortly before the coming of the Son of Man—i.e., they return sometime during the future Tribulation Period/70th week of Daniel; see the discussion of Matt. 10:23). (And when “all these things” of Matt. 24:4-32 have been fulfilled and the coming of the Son of Man occurs, these Jewish disciples would then be allowed to finally “pass away,” so as to then be immediately resurrected to enter the earthly kingdom in their glorified bodies.)"

Preterism Answered - Matthew 24:34

James M Ventilato
December 28, 2004
Updated: July 4, 2013

Isn't this a desperate attempt to deny the obvious time statements in order to avoid the inevitable conclusion?

Notice, he recognizes the fact that Jesus had His contemporaries in mind (Mt. 24:34). To avoid the, "AD 70 elephant in the room," he theorizes the disciples didn't die but are being "miraculously kept...alive" in order to fulfill Mt. 16:28 & 24:34! He believes they were "translated" sort of like Enoch or Elijah. So, they will come back during some imagined future generation with Christ "then be immediately resurrected to enter the earthly kingdom in their glorified bodies."

Wow! An active, fertile imagination, but not one shred of evidence from Scripture. And they accuse the Preterist of failing to provide Scripture to substantiate their position!

Though I've witnessed this type of desperation from the futurist several times, this interpretation is certainly new to me.

Has anyone heard of this method of interpretation of Mt. 16:28 & 24:34?

Or, better yet, do any of the futurists out there agree with him?

 

[JesusMartyr]

I see you are an MJ so in essence you are still in OC Judaism correct? Just wondering.

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
JESUS and PAUL vs the OC Judean Rulers

Matthew 26:4
and they together-counsel that Jesus to fraud/guile they should be laying hold of and may be killing Him.

2 Corin 6:17
wherefore come-forthout of midst ofthem! and be being separated! is saying Lord
and an unclean-thing no ye be touching! and I shall be accepting ye

Revelation 18:4
And I hear another voice out of the heaven saying "come forth! out of Her My people..............


.

I'm assuming that O.C. means "old covenant"? If so, no of course not...
I am born from above from our Mother Heavenly Jerusalem, wife of Jesus, in the New Marriage Covenant in Christ's blood, as promised to Israel in the old Testament. Fulfilled in Christ. Jesus is my Father, and His Wife, the true Church Bride, is my mother, as is described throughout the new testament.
The only reason I chose the MJ "title" in the "religious affiliation" category is because I believe in One God; (I have no use for the strange "trinity" teachings, I only follow scriptures and the Holy Spirit of Christ). And since the only choices to sign up as was a "MJ monotheist" or UPC, I chose the one closer I guess, just because I have so called 'jewish' ancestry... and the practices of UPC with their glossolalia gibberish is highly offensive to all things Holy.
Thank you for asking

 

[JesusMartyr]

I'm very familiar with the Dispensationalist view since I was raised under that teaching. I recently came across a novel, maybe desperate, critique of Preterism that included the following statement:

"As such, this yet leaves one possibility . . . actually the only tenable position (though there can be a slight variation of a detail or two within the scenario of this only tenable position) . . . that Preterists may, and must, adopt under their absurd, isolated, pseudo-literal view of Matt. 24:34 (i.e., insofar as, His “contemporaries” would not all die or pass away till “all these things” of Matt. 24:4-32 have been fulfilled and the second coming of the Son of Man occurs):

That is, the Lord's declaration entails that He would, and has, miraculously kept some of His contemporaries alive for the past 2,000 years and will continue to do so until “all these things” of Matt. 24:4-32 have been fulfilled and the coming of the Son of Man occurs (these contemporaries include the very same Jewish disciples to whom the promise of Matt. 16:28 pertained). Where are they being kept alive? The text does not say, but they are presumably in Paradise/the third heaven. Thus, the Lord (in making good on His word that His contemporaries would not all pass away till “all these things” of Matt. 24:4-32 have been fulfilled and the coming of the Son of Man occurs) had these Jewish disciples taken up to heaven at some point (perhaps prior to, or upon, His ascension), and has been miraculously keeping them alive as such for the past 2,000 years—until He returns with them to establish His literal kingdom on earth upon the fulfillment of “all these things” in Daniel’s 70th week (or perhaps they return shortly before the coming of the Son of Man—i.e., they return sometime during the future Tribulation Period/70th week of Daniel; see the discussion of Matt. 10:23). (And when “all these things” of Matt. 24:4-32 have been fulfilled and the coming of the Son of Man occurs, these Jewish disciples would then be allowed to finally “pass away,” so as to then be immediately resurrected to enter the earthly kingdom in their glorified bodies.)"

Preterism Answered - Matthew 24:34

James M Ventilato
December 28, 2004
Updated: July 4, 2013

Isn't this a desperate attempt to deny the obvious time statements in order to avoid the inevitable conclusion?

Notice, he recognizes the fact that Jesus had His contemporaries in mind (Mt. 24:34). To avoid the, "AD 70 elephant in the room," he theorizes the disciples didn't die but are being "miraculously kept...alive" in order to fulfill Mt. 16:28 & 24:34! He believes they were "translated" sort of like Enoch or Elijah. So, they will come back during some imagined future generation with Christ "then be immediately resurrected to enter the earthly kingdom in their glorified bodies."

Wow! An active, fertile imagination, but not one shred of evidence from Scripture. And they accuse the Preterist of failing to provide Scripture to substantiate their position!

Though I've witnessed this type of desperation from the futurist several times, this interpretation is certainly new to me.

Has anyone heard of this method of interpretation of Mt. 16:28 & 24:34?

Or, better yet, do any of the futurists out there agree with him?

Yes, I've heard of it, in fact, asking those questions arose originally from within me. It wasn't until I authentically began looking for understanding in this that the truth sprang out.
After it is all said and done, the dispensational futurist views forced upon me dissolved away in light of the Word of God.
It took awhile though... For example, I can't believe it took me so long even, to finally grasp that the term "second coming" isn't in scriptures for a very good reason. (Yet look how that phrase is thrown around assumptively from the pulpit, and absorbed by those who don't prove things out!)
Christ CAME as recorded in Acts 2. Christ CAME in vengeance also, in A.D. 70 as foretold. Christ COMES into persons every time someone ASKS Him to Come.
As John explained, If Christ isn't "Come in the flesh" of a person, that person is an antichrist... another term the dispensationalists relegate to some obscure futuristic "event" on this planet. In fact, everything concerning salvation appears to be compromised when shellacked over by futurism.
I know that I was dead in my sins before receiving Christ. Those who believe Christ is yet "to come" have no more salvation than those who rejected the coming of Christ we read about in the Gospels.
It sure is plain and simple to see from on this side of the great fixed gulf. But the blindness before being translated from darkness to light, is the kingdom of darkness indeed.
May all ask for Jesus to Come NOW, while it is called To Day, to receive His Holy Spirit. Only then could they know all these things.
Peace

 

[JesusMartyr]

Since you've missed the timing you've also missed the location.

Again, John wrote of events that were about to take place. The inspired apostle said they would be near, they would occur shortly and soon. Moscow has nothing to do with Bible prophecy.

I'm also pretty sure that John and his audiences were not concerned with skin cancer, red tides or global warming.

It's amazing how the futurist wanders from one speculative theory to another. Now that's laughable!

Having had all those ideas foistered upon me when I was young and in "learning mode", I didn't know that the futuristic "interpretations" by man was wrong, and swallowed them all myself at first, hook line and sinker.
When reading and learning the Bible, while holding a church pamphlet in the other hand giving me the futuristic "explanation", I knew not to suspect error, as I held in high esteem the "noble folk" telling me that stuff.
I now know that every man is a liar and that only God is true, and only He can reveal truth out of His Word.
As one poster put forth things that he was told about red tides and skin cancer and global warming etc, such a person, if they stop to think even for one moment, if honest to themselves, they would KNOW they didn't get that revelation from the Holy Spirit, but from carnal men's theology learned in seminary and from other men. Once we allow that to happen, the chaos of confused doctrines snowball into a wad of incomprehension that HAS to all be forced into a superfantastic future of crazy happenings on this planet, exactly as the Pharisees perceived would happen in their ignorance, and as a result, the Kingdom is far from them in every respect, without salvation, without Christ in them, His true Kingdom.

(Luk 17:20) And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

(Luk 17:21) neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU.

 

[A New World]

Yes, I've heard of it, in fact, asking those questions arose originally from within me. It wasn't until I authentically began looking for understanding in this that the truth sprang out.
After it is all said and done, the dispensational futurist views forced upon me dissolved away in light of the Word of God.

I'm surprised that you've heard the idea that the disciples never died but were translated bodily into paradise to await the 'second coming' when they will come back to earth, finally die, and then be resurrected in their new physical/spiritual bodies.

As I said, I grew up in a Dispensationalist home but never heard anything like that.

It took awhile though... For example, I can't believe it took me so long even, to finally grasp that the term "second coming" isn't in scriptures for a very good reason. (Yet look how that phrase is thrown around assumptively from the pulpit, and absorbed by those who don't prove things out!)
Christ CAME as recorded in Acts 2. Christ CAME in vengeance also, in A.D. 70 as foretold. Christ COMES into persons every time someone ASKS Him to Come.

The only reference I have found to a 'second' coming is Heb. 9:28: "so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation." (Hebrews&#8236; 9&#8236;:28&#8236; NKJV)

I read the words 'eagerly wait for Him' as a time statement. I also believe those of the transition period were rewarded for their patience as they waited for, and received their salvation at the coming of The Lord.

IMHO, those living during the time of transition from the OC age to the NC age, AD 30-AD 70, were eagerly awaiting the death of the OC body (which was in the process of dying), and the raising up (resurrection) of the NC body (which was in the process of being raised up-1Cor. 15:35). They had received resurrection life by faith, but were awaiting salvation that would arrive at the consummation, the end of that age. I've heard this referred to as "the already, but the not yet."

As John explained, If Christ isn't "Come in the flesh" of a person, that person is an antichrist... another term the dispensationalists relegate to some obscure futuristic "event" on this planet. In fact, everything concerning salvation appears to be compromised when shellacked over by futurism.

You are absolutely correct. The arrival of Messiah in the flesh signaled the end for Judaism as it stood in the first century. He initiated 'the last days' of OC Israel. That's why the Jewish leaders hated Him and vowed to kill Him. And, of course, they eventually succeeded.

The gospel of the true spiritual kingdom of Christ was preached in all the world before the end came just as Jesus said(Mt. 24:14). The transition period is evidence that God kept His promises to OC Israel contrary to the dispy doctrine. Prior to the desolation and destruction of the harlot, OC Israel, He saved His remnant, the firstfruits. They, along with the believing Gentiles, became the NC bride of Christ in the new heavens and new earth.

We are now saved when we receive the resurrection life of Christ as we come to Him in faith. We are new creations in Him under the New Covenant.

God bless you. I enjoy reading your posts since they seem unaffected by the modern spin so common today.

 

[A New World]

Having had all those ideas foistered upon me when I was young and in "learning mode", I didn't know that the futuristic "interpretations" by man was wrong, and swallowed them all myself at first, hook line and sinker.
When reading and learning the Bible, while holding a church pamphlet in the other hand giving me the futuristic "explanation", I knew not to suspect error, as I held in high esteem the "noble folk" telling me that stuff.
I now know that every man is a liar and that only God is true, and only He can reveal truth out of His Word.

Every word of your sentiments above probably represent most of the Preterist community.

As one poster put forth things that he was told about red tides and skin cancer and global warming etc, such a person, if they stop to think even for one moment, if honest to themselves, they would KNOW they didn't get that revelation from the Holy Spirit, but from carnal men's theology learned in seminary and from other men. Once we allow that to happen, the chaos of confused doctrines snowball into a wad of incomprehension that HAS to all be forced into a superfantastic future of crazy happenings on this planet, exactly as the Pharisees perceived would happen in their ignorance, and as a result, the Kingdom is far from them in every respect, without salvation, without Christ in them, His true Kingdom.

(Luk 17:20) And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

(Luk 17:21) neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is WITHIN YOU.

The futurist method of interpretation, as we both well know, fails from the very beginning. They insist on reading the Bible as though it was written to them. Some call their method 'newspaper' eschatology. They either ignore or dismiss the principle of 'Audience Relevance.' Then, instead of accepting the multiple 'time statements' they do all they can to re-interpret them and avoid their true meaning and importance.

We are proof that the condition isn't permanent.

 

[Der Alte]

Every word of your sentiments above probably represent most of the Preterist community.

The futurist method of interpretation, as we both well know, fails from the very beginning. They insist on reading the Bible as though it was written to them. Some call their method 'newspaper' eschatology. They either ignore or dismiss the principle of 'Audience Relevance.' Then, instead of accepting the multiple 'time statements' they do all they can to re-interpret them and avoid their true meaning and importance.

We are proof that the condition isn't permanent.

The problem with this entire line of argument is that no, none, zero of the early church fathers were aware that all the prophecies were fulfilled in the 1st century.

 

[Evergreen48]

The problem with this entire line of argument is that no, none, zero of the early church fathers were aware that all the prophecies were fulfilled in the 1st century.

That only presents a problem for those who do not realize that these men were not saints. In fact some of what I have read of their writings show them to be quite unlearned in spiritual matters. Take for instance the following writing of 1Clement of Rome :

"Let us consider that wonderful sign of the resurrection which takes place in eastern lands, that is, in Arabia and the countries round about. There is a certain bird which is called a ph&#339;nix. This is the only one of its kind, and lives five hundred years. And when the time of its dissolution draws near that it must die, it builds itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and other spices, into which, when the time is fulfilled, it enters and dies. But as the flesh decays a certain kind of worm is produced, which, being nourished by the juices of the dead bird, brings forth feathers. Then, when it has acquired strength, it takes up that nest in which are the bones of its parent, and bearing these it passes from the land of Arabia into Egypt, to the city called Heliopolis. And, in open day, flying in the sight of all men, it places them on the altar of the sun, and having done this, hastens back to its former abode. The priests then inspect the registers of the dates, and find that it has returned exactly as the five hundredth year was completed.

Do we then deem it any great and wonderful thing for the Maker of all things to raise up again those who have piously served Him in the assurance of a good faith, when even by a bird He shows us the mightiness of His power to fulfil His promise? [...] "

 

[A New World]

The problem with this entire line of argument is that no, none, zero of the early church fathers were aware that all the prophecies were fulfilled in the 1st century.

One should never rely on "church fathers" as their standard of truth.
How do we know which of the "church fathers" were reliable?
How do we even know if their opinions have been accurately maintained and preserved?

On the other hand, as Christians, we believe the Bible is inspired and inerrant in its original form.
We believe God has preserved His Word, and it alone is reliable and therefore our only standard of truth.

 

[interpreter]

Since you've missed the timing you've also missed the location.

Again, John wrote of events that were about to take place. The inspired apostle said they would be near, they would occur shortly and soon. Moscow has nothing to do with Bible prophecy.

I'm also pretty sure that John and his audiences were not concerned with skin cancer, red tides or global warming.

It's amazing how the futurist wanders from one speculative theory to another. Now that's laughable!

I am not a futurist. The second coming occured in 312 AD when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power through St Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow. That happened "soon" and "with speed." I agree however that John was not concerned about the 7 last plagues which do not happen till chapter 16, some 1900 years away.

 

[parousia70]

The problem with this entire line of argument is that no, none, zero of the early church fathers were aware that all the prophecies were fulfilled in the 1st century.

Maybe no individual ECF held that ALL Eschatology was fulfilled in 70AD However, when we accumulate all the individual prophesies that any given ECF on their own DID believe to be fulfilled in 70AD, and put them together, we basically arrive at a Full preterist position, not to mention the fact that many of the prophesies certain ECF's held as fulfilled in 70, logically necessitate a FP conclusion, even if they were personally inconsistent on their application thereof.

Of course A New World and Evergreen48 are correct in saying ECF's were not inspired and quite often had far out opinions that no honest modern Bible expositor would hold today.

But somehow that fact doesn't bother the anti preterists who Champion ECF writings as DEFINITIVE proof against preterism.

 

[JesusMartyr]

The problem with this entire line of argument is that no, none, zero of the early church fathers were aware that all the prophecies were fulfilled in the 1st century.

There is certainly nothing of value in what some other man, especially a dead one, could possibly offer.


(Rom 3:4) God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.