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Full Preterism-Where is the scriptural evidence?

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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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Those who persecuted Christians, killed the apostles, prophets, saints and The Lord himself were fluent in both Hebrew and Greek. I think they could certainly "conjugate a Greek verb or locate a Hebrew verb if their life depended on it." However, since their lives depended on placing their faith in Messiah, not their abilities to properly conjugate verbs, they died in their sins.

Your point is meaningless!

No my point is not meaningless. Your example above is meaningless. I am not discussing the early Christians who wrote the scriptures and those who persecuted them. There are a bunch of folks around here trying to tell me and others "what the Bible really says,". They do so by manipulating one English version or another. Flash! I read English very well and have for many decades. I don't need anyone to exlain or correct my understanding of English scriptures. So if someone intends to explain me "what the Bible really says." it will have to be from the original languages.

You are correct the lives of the early Christians "depended on placing their faith in Messiah, not their abilities to properly conjugate verbs." However they understood the original languages, as I understand English, and did not need someone trying to tell them "what the Bible really says." I know of many people who listened to self appointed leaders telling them "what the Bible really says" They evidently did not have a solid grounding in scripture because they followed false teachers to their deaths in Guyana, South America and Waco Texas.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by Der Alter
Oh we're going to play "Neener, neener, neener I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh!"
very mature...
Just frustration.
He is not used to dealing with this many spirit led Preterists ;)


.
 
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Der Alte

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Evergreen48

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Wrong on both accounts. I can deal with anybody.

There is a difference between just "dealing with someone", and successfully dealing with someone. And there are not many on this forum that you have successfully dealt with.
 
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Der Alte

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There is a difference between just "dealing with someone", and successfully dealing with someone. And there are not many on this forum that you have successfully dealt with.

I have dealt successfully with many people here. I'm not concerned about those who don't think I have.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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There is a difference between just "dealing with someone", and successfully dealing with someone. And there are not many on this forum that you have successfully dealt with.
Not sure why so many futurists cannot see OC Jerusalem's destruction being in Revelation.
Here is an interesting discussion about the endtime King of Judah:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7585242/#post65963430
The End Time King of Judah


Originally Posted by Biblewriter
The muslms will indeed attack Israel, as the main portion of the army of the Assyrian, or King of the north.

Don't forget, that Rome was north of Judea/Jerusalem :idea:

Dan 11:15
"So the king of the North[Romans] shall come and build a siege mound, and take a fortified city[Jerusalem]; and the forces of the South[Israel/Judea] shall not withstand him.
Even his choice troops shall have no strength to resist.

Luke 19:
41 And as He nears being aware the City He laments upon Her
42 saying "that if thou knew and thou even indeed in the day, this, the toward peace of thee, now yet it was Hid from thy eyes.
43 That shall be arriving days upon thee and thy enemies shall be constructing a siege-work to thee, and shall be encompassing thee and pressing thee every which place.
44 and they shall be levelling thee and the offspring of thee in thee and not they shall be leaving stone upon stone in thee.
Because which not thou knew the time of the visitation of thee.

http://www.bible.ca/pre-destruction70AD-george-holford-1805AD.htm

At this critical and alarming conjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman army was approaching the city.
The Jews were petrified with astonishment and fear............

Before their final demolition, however, Titus took, a. survey of the city and its fortifications ; and, while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "
Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ; for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these ?"

.
 
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A New World

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No my point is not meaningless. Your example above is meaningless. I am not discussing the early Christians who wrote the scriptures and those who persecuted them.

You are discussing those who know/knew the original languages and how important that is to knowing truth. That is your entire premise! Didn't those in the first century who persecuted and killed God's people know the original languages? Knowledge of the original languages does not equal knowledge of the truth which is what you advocate. Your point is false and therefore meaningless!

There are a bunch of folks around here trying to tell me and others "what the Bible really says,". They do so by manipulating one English version or another. Flash! I read English very well and have for many decades. I don't need anyone to exlain or correct my understanding of English scriptures. So if someone intends to explain me "what the Bible really says." it will have to be from the original languages.

You are correct the lives of the early Christians "depended on placing their faith in Messiah, not their abilities to properly conjugate verbs." However they understood the original languages, as I understand English, and did not need someone trying to tell them "what the Bible really says." I know of many people who listened to self appointed leaders telling them "what the Bible really says" They evidently did not have a solid grounding in scripture because they followed false teachers to their deaths in Guyana, South America and Waco Texas.

I'm not telling you what the Bible says any more than you are telling me what it says. We discuss what we have found in Scripture and test it against what others have found. If we are humble and open minded we may learn something.

You seem to think that if one can understand the original languages in which Scripture was written they would agree with you. You think the 'real' truth can only be obtained by the comprehension of the original languages.

My point is, the first century scribes and Pharisees knew the original languages yet they were blind to truth. With all their knowledge of the languages they missed the truth and killed God's Son and his chosen people. No, our goal should not be to learn the original languages.

Despite the fact that some well meaning scholars have deluded themselves in thinking their contributions are indespensible to the survival of the church, God has preserved His Word in the native languages of Christians. Surely you believe there are reliable English translations that accurately represent the original languages. Don't you think the NKJV and the NASB are God's Word?

Are there many who misinterpret Scripture? Yes. Do those who only know English misinterpret Scripture? Yes. Do scholars who have dedicated many years learning the original languages misinterpret Scripture? Yes.
 
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Jack Terrence

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LittleLambofJesus

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..............
My point is, the first century scribes and Pharisees knew the original languages yet they were blind to truth. With all their knowledge of the languages they missed the truth and killed God's Son and his chosen people................

Are there many who misinterpret Scripture? Yes. Do those who only know English misinterpret Scripture? Yes. Do scholars who have dedicated many years learning the original languages misinterpret Scripture? Yes.
The Pharisees are an interesting study.

If you look at the greek word for it, it is a combination of "pharao and poison".

Luke 16:14
Now the Pharisees/farisaioi <5330> , who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.

Revelation 9:21
And not they repent/reform out of their murders, nor out from their sorceries/farmakeiwn <5331>.........

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of the tormenting of them is ascending into Ages to-Ages..........
[Ezekiel 39:12/Luke 16:24,26]
5330. Pharisaios of Hebrew origin (c a separatist, i.e. exclusively religious; a Pharisean, i.e. Jewish sectary:--Pharisee.
5328. Pharao of foreign origin (6547); Pharao (i.e. Pharoh), an Egyptian king:--Pharaoh.
2447. ios perhaps from eimi (to go) or hiemi (to send); rust (as if emitted by metals); also venom (as emitted by serpents):--poison, rust. AV - poison 2, rust 1; 3
5331. pharmakeia from 5332; medication ("pharmacy"), i.e. (by extension) magic (literally or figuratively):--sorcery, witchcraft.

Kindgdom Bible Studies Template Page

The story of the rich man and Lazarus is without doubt one of the most misunderstood of all the stories in the Bible. Is it a parable, or an actual statement of facts concerning life beyond the grave?..........]

Usually, when the story of the rich man and Lazarus is considered, its setting is ignored. At the time the story was told Jesus had just eaten dinner with a Pharisee...........

The scribes and Pharisees complained openly and bitterly against Jesus, condemning Him because He received sinners into His company and ate with them. Against this background of biting criticism Jesus stood and gave the teachings found in chapters fifteen and sixteen of Luke...............
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame&#8221; (Lk. 16:24).
What? Think about it! If he is in a literal, raging flame.......
What then is TORMENTING the rich man? Why, what he SEES! Notice: It says he &#8220;lift up his EYES............

Shocked realization comes to the rich man&#8217;s mind. According to the parable, he instantly recognizes Lazarus, and Abraham.
He sees them as if in a glorious state; perhaps even engaged in partaking of a sumptuous banquet, not unlike the hundreds of banquets the rich man enjoyed during his life, all the while offering only the leavings of his table for Lazarus!.......



.
 
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Evergreen48

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Not sure why so many futurists cannot see OC Jerusalem's destruction being in Revelation.



I think because they can't get past the mind-set that Revelation is yet to be fulfilled. And too, there are a lot of movies that have been made which are based on the book of Revelation, and of course they are all about what is going to happen in the future. Hollywood has made a fortune from it. I read somewhere that when the men who compiled the 'canon' of the New Testament scriptures, they argued back and forth for a while before they decided to include the book of Revelation with the New Testament writings. They finally decided to include it, but with the understanding that it would not be used to prove any particular doctrine.
I have often thought how different the eschatological views might have been if it had not been included.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by Evergreen48
What is MAD's?
Mid Acts Dispensationalists
Interesting.

I call futurist Dispensationlism the "spider web" doctrine and of course they fight tooth and nail against both the AMILL and PRETERIST doctrines...............

http://www.christianforums.com/t7795514/
The BASICS of Mid-Acts Dispensationalism


The following provides an excellent overview of Mid-Acts Dispensationalism. If you can get through it, bias on hold til then (Acts 17:11) you will at least have a picture of why we approach our study of Scripture from the perspective that we do...

The Basics of Mid-Acts Dispensationalism

Anyway, to your edification...

http://web.archive.org/web/20131207...y.org/category/eschatology/dispensationalism/


No evaluation of Dispensational Premillennialism may ignore its teaching of a two-phased return of Christ, the first phase of which is commonly known as the rapture.
This feature is its most widely known aspect. Popularized by such best-selling books as Hal Lindsey&#8217;s The Late Great Planet Earth, the film The Return,

.........Dispensationalism has a pervasive influence not only extensively, but also intensively. It is usually the case that those who embrace its teachings as a system are affected in almost every area of their theological thinking.

So pervasive is its effect on those who have become its pupils, that even those who have come to see the error of its basic presuppositions testify that dispensational cobwebs have remained in their thinking for a long time after the initial sweeping took place. My own experience bears witness to the truth of what I say.............


.
 
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Der Alte

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You are discussing those who know/knew the original languages and how important that is to knowing truth. That is your entire premise! Didn't those in the first century who persecuted and killed God's people know the original languages? Knowledge of the original languages does not equal knowledge of the truth which is what you advocate. Your point is false and therefore meaningless!

Thank you for telling me what my premise is. I guess without you telling me I would never have known. Unfortunately you have it wrong even after I explained it. What those in the 1st century did or did not know is irrelevant to anything. I have never said or implied that knowledge of the original languages equals knowledge of the truth. Your attempt to tell me what I meant is false therefore meaningless.

I'm not telling you what the Bible says any more than you are telling me what it says. We discuss what we have found in Scripture and test it against what others have found. If we are humble and open minded we may learn something.

It is possible that if we are humble and open minded we may learn something. The problem is that most folks who think they are humble and open minded learn something, they learn exactly what their denomination teaches.

You seem to think that if one can understand the original languages in which Scripture was written they would agree with you. You think the 'real' truth can only be obtained by the comprehension of the original languages.

Wrong again! Repeating your false assumptions and accusations does not make them true.

My point is, the first century scribes and Pharisees knew the original languages yet they were blind to truth. With all their knowledge of the languages they missed the truth and killed God's Son and his chosen people. No, our goal should not be to learn the original languages.

Irrelevant! What the scribes and Pharisees did or did not know is irrelevant to my point. There aren't any scribes and Pharisees around here.

Despite the fact that some well meaning scholars have deluded themselves in thinking their contributions are indespensible to the survival of the church, God has preserved His Word in the native languages of Christians. Surely you believe there are reliable English translations that accurately represent the original languages. Don't you think the NKJV and the NASB are God's Word?

The NASB and NKJV may be good translations. But I am not talking about what those or any other version says. I learned to read when FDR was president and I have no problem reading and understanding any version. The problem arises when people with less than honorable intentions start telling me "what the Bible really means" and surprise, surprise their explanation just happens to fit the doctrine of their particular group and it just happens to contradict what the original languages "really say."

Are there many who misinterpret Scripture? Yes. Do those who only know English misinterpret Scripture? Yes.

Yes they do and more often than not it is deliberate, because so many times they are only repeating what their leaders and teachers taught them. Present company not excepted!

Do scholars who have dedicated many years learning the original languages misinterpret Scripture? Yes.

Very rarely! Scholars don't translate scripture in a vacuum. While Greek and Hebrew scholars may have an agenda they stake their professional reputations on their work. Scholars don't just write something and put it in bookstores. Professional writing is peer reviewed by other scholars knowledgable in the field. If there are errors in professional writing, other professionals will find it and make it known. No professional wants his/her work being shown to have significant errors. Therefore such errors are very rare, and deliberate errors even rarer. And if they do make translational errors, those errors will be caught by other professionals not amateurs with no scholastic credentials on a forum like this.

On the other hand denominational leaders and teachers have no such motivation. They can and do say anything they want to and if someone says a certain scholar says something different, do they acknowledge their error? Oh no! They say something like "scholars who have dedicated many years learning the original languages misinterpret Scripture!" Anonymous posters on forums like this usually follow exactly what their denominational leaders and teachers tell them and if someone like me quotes from an accredited scholar guess what happens? Just read your post to find out.
 
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Der Alte

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Eusebius was a Preterist. He co-authored and co-signed the Nicene Creed.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7789162/#post64542862

That's one. How about the others closer to the events?

The Epistle Of Ignatius To The Magnesians [ca. 98 AD]

Ignatius was a disciple of John the apostle. John certainly would have taught him, if Jesus had returned 28 years earlier.


These things[I address to you], my beloved, not that I know any of you to be in such a state;[17] but, as less than any of you, I desire to guard you beforehand, that ye fall not upon the hooks of vain doctrine, but that you may rather attain to a full assurance in Christ, who was begotten by the Father before all ages, but was afterwards ye attain to full assurance in regard to the birth, and passion, and resurrection which took place in the time of the government of Pontius Pilate, being truly and certainly accomplished by Jesus Christ, who is our hope,[1] from which may no one of you ever be turned aside. Born of the Virgin Mary without any intercourse with man. He also lived a holy life, and healed every kind of sickness and disease among the people, and wrought signs and wonders for the benefit of men; and to those who had fallen into the error of polytheism He made known the one and only true God, His Father, and underwent the passion, and endured the cross at the hands of the Christ-killing Jews, under Pontius Pilate the governor and Herod the king. He also died, and rose again, and ascended into the heavens to Him that sent Him, and is sat down at His right hand, and shall come at the end of the world, with His Father's glory, to judge the living and the dead, and to render to every one according to his works.[2] He who knows these things with a full assurance, and believes them, is happy; even as ye are now the lovers of God and of Christ, in the full assurance of our hope, from which may no one of us[3] ever be turned aside!

Chap. X.--Beware Of Judaizing.

Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity.[7] For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be ye changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be ye salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour ye shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess[12] Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace[13] Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believeth might be gathered together to God.

The Epistle Of Ignatius To The Philadelphians
Chap. VI.--Do Not Accept Judaism.

But if any one preach the Jewish law(9) unto you, listen not to him. For it is better to hearken to Christian doctrine from a man who has been circumcised, than to Judaism from one uncircumcised.
But if either of such persons do not speak concerning Jesus Christ, they are in my judgment but as monuments and sepulchres of the dead, upon which are written only the names of men. Flee therefore the wicked devices and snares of the prince prophets, but denies Christ to be the Son of God, he is a liar, even as also is his father the devil,(10) and is a Jew falsely so called, being possessed of(11) mere carnal circumcision.​

The late date, for the writing of Revelation, by John, ca. 96 AD, has been argued against because it mentions Judaizers, which according to Preter. sources, “would be ridiculous after the temple was destroyed..” Yet, If the “Day of the Lord” and Jesus’ return occurred in 70 AD then Justin Martyr writing about 150 AD knew nothing about it. Justin specifically states that God “has still delayed” Jesus return, following His ascension.

The First Apology Of Justin [110-165 AD]

For in the Jewish war which lately raged, Barchochebas, the leader of the revolt of the Jews, gave orders that Christians alone should be led to cruel punishments, unless they would deny Jesus Christ and utter blasphemy. In these books, then, of the prophets we found Jesus our Christ foretold as coming, born of a virgin, growing up to man's estate, and healing every disease and every sickness, and raising the dead, and being hated, and unrecognised, and crucified, and dying, and rising again, and ascending into heaven, and being, and being called, the Son of God. We find it also predicted that certain persons should be sent by Him into every nation to publish these things, and that rather among the Gentiles [than among the Jews] men should believe on Him. And He was predicted before He appeared, first 5000 years before, and again 3000, then 2000, then 1000, and yet again 800; for in the succession of generations prophets after prophets arose.

Chap. XLV.--Christ's Session In Heaven Foretold.

And that God the Father of all would bring Christ to heaven after He had raised Him from the dead, and would keep Him there(2) until He has subdued His enemies the devils, and until the number of those who are foreknown by Him as good and virtuous is complete, on whose account He has still delayed the consummation--hear what was said by the prophet David. These are his words: "The Lord said unto My Lord, Sit Thou at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool. The Lord shall send to Thee the rod of power out of Jerusalem; and rule Thou in the midst of Thine enemies. With Thee is the government in the day of Thy power, in the beauties of Thy saints: from the womb of morning(3) hare I begotten Thee."(4) That which he says, "He shall send to Thee the rod of power out of Jerusalem," is predictive of the mighty, word, which His apostles, going forth from Jerusalem, preached everywhere; and though death is decreed against those who teach or at all confess the name of Christ, we everywhere both embrace and teach it. And if you also read these words in a hostile spirit, ye can do no more, as I said before, than kill us; which indeed does no harm to us, but to you and all who unjustly hate us, and do not repent, brings eternal punishment by tire.​

One last church father, for a third witness. Irenaeus writing also about 150 AD, also writes of the crucifixion, resurrection and ascension and also mentions only a future manifestation from heaven. Note, none of these early church fathers mention the “Day of the Lord”, the return of Jesus with all of his angels, which supposedly occurred in 70 AD.

Irenaeus Against Heresies [120-202 AD]

1. The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations(6) of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father "to gather all things in one,"(7) and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, "every knee should bow, of things in heaven,, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess"(8) to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send "spiritual wickednesses,"​

Should you feel inclined to check my sources here is the link to the early church fathers at CCEL, online.

Early Church Fathers - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
 
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Der Alte

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The Pharisees are an interesting study.

If you look at the greek word for it, it is a combination of "pharao and poison".

5330. Pharisaios of Hebrew origin (c a separatist, i.e. exclusively religious; a Pharisean, i.e. Jewish sectary:--Pharisee.
5328. Pharao of foreign origin (6547); Pharao (i.e. Pharoh), an Egyptian king:--Pharaoh.
2447. ios perhaps from eimi (to go) or hiemi (to send); rust (as if emitted by metals); also venom (as emitted by serpents):--poison, rust. AV - poison 2, rust 1; 3
5331. pharmakeia from 5332; medication ("pharmacy"), i.e. (by extension) magic (literally or figuratively):--sorcery, witchcraft.

This is the etymological fallacy. Just because words are similar in appearance does not mean they are related or that one is derived from the other. Jews would hardly use the title of a pagan king to designate one of their sects. Pharisaios of Hebrew origin (c a separatist, i.e. exclusively religious; a Pharisean, i.e. Jewish sectary:--Pharisee. is from the Hebrew word for separate &#1508;&#1468;&#1512;&#1513;&#1473;/parash.

Kindgdom Bible Studies Template Page

The story of the rich man and Lazarus is without doubt one of the most misunderstood of all the stories in the Bible. Is it a parable, or an actual statement of facts concerning life beyond the grave?..........]

Usually, when the story of the rich man and Lazarus is considered, its setting is ignored. At the time the story was told Jesus had just eaten dinner with a Pharisee...........

The scribes and Pharisees complained openly and bitterly against Jesus, condemning Him because He received sinners into His company and ate with them. Against this background of biting criticism Jesus stood and gave the teachings found in chapters fifteen and sixteen of Luke...............

What? Think about it! If he is in a literal, raging flame.......
What then is TORMENTING the rich man? Why, what he SEES! Notice: It says he “lift up his EYES............

Shocked realization comes to the rich man’s mind. According to the parable, he instantly recognizes Lazarus, and Abraham.
He sees them as if in a glorious state; perhaps even engaged in partaking of a sumptuous banquet, not unlike the hundreds of banquets the rich man enjoyed during his life, all the while offering only the leavings of his table for Lazarus!........

Actually the rich man did not even let Lazarus eat the crumbs from his table. Again I wonder why/how every church father who refers to the story of the rich man and Lazarus considers it to be factual.

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.

1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1

On the Resurrection. But he figuratively designates the vulgar rabble, attached to ephemeral pleasure, flourishing for a little, loving ornament, loving praise, and being everything but truth-loving, good for nothing but to be burned with fire. “There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.

Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]

In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.

The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics

A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.” Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.

Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah (A.D. 260-312)

But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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This is the etymological fallacy. Just because words are similar in appearance does not mean they are related or that one is derived from the other. Jews would hardly use the title of a pagan king to designate one of their sects. Pharisaios of Hebrew origin (c a separatist, i.e. exclusively religious; a Pharisean, i.e. Jewish sectary:--Pharisee. is from the Hebrew word for separate &#1508;&#1468;&#1512;&#1513;&#1473;/parash.

Actually the rich man did not even let Lazarus eat the crumbs from his table. Again I wonder why/how every church father who refers to the story of the rich mnan and Lazarus considers it to be factual.
Perhaps because actual people from the Bible are mentioned ;)
I view it as a "covenantle" parable concerning the NC and OC........

LUKE 16:
26 " 'And besides all this, between us[NC/JESUSLIFE] and ye[OC/MOSES/DEATH] there is a great gulf fixed,
so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there ferry to us.' "
30 "And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

fishing-with-moses.jpg




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