Frozen embryos are ‘children,’ Alabama Supreme Court rules in couples’ wrongful death suits

[Hans Blaster]

are you suggesting a human in suspended animation, if we knew how to do it, would be only a clump of cells, and legally to be discarded?

Suspended animation is a fantasy.

 

[Bradskii]

are you suggesting a human in suspended animation, if we knew how to do it, would be only a clump of cells, and legally to be discarded?

So we have your son in suspended animation and your frozen zygote in a container. Darn it, the power is going out. You can only save one. Quick! Which one is it?

 

[Derf]

Are these children 31 (and change) years old?

I don't understand your question. Which children are you asking about?

 

[Derf]

So we have your son in suspended animation and your frozen zygote in a container. Darn it, the power is going out. You can only save one. Quick! Which one is it?

Both.

 

[Derf]

Suspended animation is a fantasy.

So was freezing an embryo not too long ago. Are you saying we only have to deal with moral issues after the technology is already in place?

 

[Hans Blaster]

So was freezing an embryo not too long ago. Are you saying we only have to deal with moral issues after the technology is already in place?

While I would agree that freezing people would be morally dubious. (why would you do it? what about the risk of shatter?)

No one is working on freezing people to thaw them back alive. What would be the point? The "moral implications" are of such are not worth wasting time exploring.

 

[jayem]

Getting in late here. It's an interesting discussion of a really weird incident. How in the world did a hospital patient gain access to a cryopreservation lab? I can only assume that someone forgot to lock the doors. But this patient, who dropped the frozen blastocysts, would clearly seem to be the proximate cause of this mess. And if AL law recognizes a blastocyst as a child (which is also bizarre,) then this patient should be charged with negligent homicide.

 

[Derf]

While I would agree that freezing people would be morally dubious. (why would you do it? what about the risk of shatter?)

Good. That's the same kind of thing we should think about freezing very small people. We have a reason to do so, and we shouldn't let them shatter (or thaw, apparently) without the proper safeguards.

No one is working on freezing people to thaw them back alive. What would be the point? The "moral implications" are of such are not worth wasting time exploring.

What would have been the point of freezing an embryo 100 years ago? now we do it, because it helps couples that can't have children naturally. I don't know how future technology will be justified. (Though one option that has been suggested is that a person with a terminal disease can be cryogenically preserved in hopes that their disease will be curable in the future.)

 

[Hans Blaster]

Good. That's the same kind of thing we should think about freezing very small people. We have a reason to do so, and we shouldn't let them shatter (or thaw, apparently) without the proper safeguards.

It's a good thing we aren't freezing people then.

What would have been the point of freezing an embryo 100 years ago? now we do it, because it helps couples that can't have children naturally. I don't know how future technology will be justified. (Though one option that has been suggested is that a person with a terminal disease can be cryogenically preserved in hopes that their disease will be curable in the future.)

To quote Mr. Data: Cryogenics was a fad in the late 20th century. Nothing became of it.

 

[Bradskii]

Both.

Again, the refusal to answer the question tells us all we need to know. It's an answer in itself.

Why don't some of you guys understand that..?

 

[Bradskii]

Good. That's the same kind of thing we should think about freezing very small people.

'It's not a zygote...It's a tiny, tiny baby!'

Seems it's not even that. Now it's 'small people'.

 

[truthpls]

Interesting legal wrinkle.

Divorce lawyers in Alabama are wondering if divorce proceedings that call for embryos to be destroyed are now invalid in the state. All signs point to yes.

If legislators don't clarify things soon, it looks like the IVF industry in Alabama really will be altered unrecognizably or vanish.

Shock, anger, confusion grip Alabama after court ruling on embryos​

labama doctors are puzzled over whether they will have to make changes to in vitro fertilization procedures. Couples have crammed into online support groups wondering if they should transfer frozen embryos out of state. And attorneys are warning that divorce settlements that call for frozen embryos to be destroyed may now be void.

If no concessions to the court ruling are made, McLean said it could cost Alabama women more money because some doctors might only be willing to retrieve a limited number of eggs.

“If we are to say, ‘Okay, I can fertilize two eggs instead of 10,’ we may not end up with any embryos or end up with an unhealthy embryo, so patients may need multiple egg retrievals to achieve the same pregnancy rate that we were trying to achieve with one retrieval,” McLean said. “Multiple attempts at retrieval will cost more money.”

[Likewise, they may be pressured to implant multiple embryos, so there are none 'left over', increasing the chances of multiple births, which have health risks for all involved.]

It costs about $1,500 to mail the embryos to labs in Georgia or another state, but Dunham noted that many labs elsewhere are already facing strains on their storage capacities.

The decision could also have implications for genetic testing of embryos, she said. Many patients rely on screening embryos to identify and prevent passing along genetic conditions. [But these tests have a risk of 'killing' the embryo... and suppose you did find a chromosomal abnormality? It's a person now.]

Are we supposed to have to accept that freezing embryos is good or acceptable? Because of all the complications involved in freezing them, we are supposed to no longer value the life God creates in a woman? That seems a bit like 'Gee, we can't treat sperm or frozen embryos like people, so we therefore can't treat little people in the womb as people either'

It seems to me God can work with anything man comes up with. If man freezes a little person before they are formed or fully formed, and one day unfreezes them and allows the process to continue, so what?

 

[o_mlly]

What you will find is that people who don't believe in God will ignore arguments based on what you think God wants.

Your problem here is not so much your atheism but your lurch to emotionalism as a response to a rational question. Children do that sort of thing quite often.

Yes, the feelings of the mother. Who better to ask than the woman who conceived them?

Nonsense.

Judge to the accused: "What do you have to say in your defense?"
Accused to the judge: "Your honor, I didn't feel that the person I murdered was a human being."

I put to you essentially the same question that another professed atheist unartfully tried to dodge:

So, exactly when should a mother (and father) begin to love their child?​

 

[BCP1928]

Getting in late here. It's an interesting discussion of a really weird incident. How in the world did a hospital patient gain access to a cryopreservation lab? I can only assume that someone forgot to lock the doors. But this patient, who dropped the frozen blastocysts, would clearly seem to be the proximate cause of this mess. And if AL law recognizes a blastocyst as a child (which is also bizarre,) then this patient should be charged with negligent homicide.

Not until after a Coroner's inquest. Every human death is subject to a Coroner's inquest to determine the cause of the death. If the death is attended by a physician then the inquest is pro forma based on a death certificate issued by the physician. When no death certificate is provided then the Coroner must determine cause of death. If the Corner determines that death was not due to natural causes then the police start looking for a perp.

 

[MotoToTheMax]

'It's not a zygote...It's a tiny, tiny baby!'

Seems it's not even that. Now it's 'small people'.

Absolutely rich coming from the side of "wHaT iS a WoMaN?" Do we have to start asking them what is a child now?

 

[RaymondG]

Those who believe abortion is murder...have to agree with this ruling as well. Only we who believe that the breathe of life is important, can argue against it.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Are we supposed to have to accept that freezing embryos is good or acceptable?

Nobody requires you to accept anything as good. However, the procedure is legal as a factual matter.

 

[essentialsaltes]

If legislators don't clarify things soon, it looks like the IVF industry in Alabama really will be altered unrecognizably or vanish.

Some Alabama clinics pause IVF services amid scramble for next steps​

By Wednesday, the fallout was clear: At least two of the state’s eight IVF clinics, the University of Alabama at Birmingham’s IVF division and Alabama Fertility, said they were pausing some parts of IVF treatment. They canceled appointments with patients as they navigated a court decision that has sent shock waves through the world of reproductive medicine.

“My patients were crying and upset, as I expected them to be,” Malizia said. “It felt absolutely terrible.”
The four patients will now have to wait at least a month, for their next ovulation, to start an embryo transfer.

“The significance of this decision impacts all Alabamians and will likely lead to fewer babies — children, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, and cousins — as fertility options become limited for those who want to have a family,” the Medical Association of the State of Alabama said in a statement Wednesday.

So far, [the clinics'] supporters have outweighed the detractors, though some clinics have received hateful messages since the ruling, accusing IVF providers of “playing God.”

After Alabama ruling, Nikki Haley says ‘embryos, to me, are babies’​

GOP presidential candidate Nikki Haley said Wednesday that she agreed with the Alabama Supreme Court’s ruling that frozen embryos are people, but she did not directly address the ruling’s finding that clinics can be sued for disposing of embryos.

“I mean, I had artificial insemination. That’s how I had my son,” she said. “… One thing is to have to save sperm or to save eggs. But when you talk about an embryo, you are talking about, to me, that’s a life.”

 

[Whyayeman]

Them being children is in the specific context of The Wrongful Death of a Minor Act, not a statement that they count as children in every single instance of any law.

So, when does a child under this definition not count as a child?

 

[Derf]

Getting in late here. It's an interesting discussion of a really weird incident. How in the world did a hospital patient gain access to a cryopreservation lab? I can only assume that someone forgot to lock the doors. But this patient, who dropped the frozen blastocysts, would clearly seem to be the proximate cause of this mess. And if AL law recognizes a blastocyst as a child (which is also bizarre,) then this patient should be charged with negligent homicide.

The weirder part is they described the patient was described as "eloped" from his room. That probably means he was supposed to be restrained or locked in.