From WOF to simplicity

[now faith]

The WOF error is meant to provide one thing, the overflow of donations to those who preach it. Immense fortunes are still able to be had by such false kingdom builders, those who shout their perceived entitlements and broadcast their beguiling message to the unsuspecting, especially to those in debt and without healthcare insurance. Reach out to the vulnerable, they do, and do it well, and take up offerings from those folks who struggle most. A dollar here, another dollar there, then they move on to other vulnerable masses to fill their heritical coffers with even more filthy lucre. It's a system made by the ambitious and those with a strong love of money. Copeland came in at the right time, as did the others, and there are still those who think the sort of vulnerability those men had all about them still exists today. But, slowly, the church is becoming wise to these serpents, these wolves in sheeps clothing.

Does your church take up a offering?
Every service?
Does anyone question what they do with their money?
How much goes to missions?
Wolves are critics who criticised others for donations,yet there shaking plates every time the church doors are open.
I guess your pastor does not have a house.
Or does he work a job cause he's not worth paying to pastor?

 

[now faith]

All you haters will have to excuse me....... but if someone is following a shyster because of him promising riches, what does that say about the true intent of the one you claim is being duped?

It would seem they are not "seeking first the kingdom of God". So why are you guys getting so upset about birds of a feather flocking together..... unless you think you should be getting some of the birdseed? And I sure hope that isn't the case.

Your right Willie most people who are scammed are trying to get something for nothing and their greed hooks them every time.

 

[now faith]

It takes years for a wof believer to study and grow and SEE the WORD work in their own life in ALL areas.

We are reaching out and helping others in the same way the Lord has helped us.

And they too receive the same good results we do.

Will we be clearing out the VA hospitals ASAP?

YOU BET!!

That's one of the reasons WE study diligently and work continuously on growing in CONSISTENTLY seeing the WORD work for us and our families AND those around us who WANT to do likewise.

What are you doing to help others receive from the LORD?

Whining and complaining and telling people the LORD'S written words DON'T work?

JESUS may NOT want to heal YOU?

What kind of nonsense is that?

The WORD DOES WORK!!!

PRAISE the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY !!!!

We see it daily in our own lives, and the lives of those who believe the LORD JESUS when HE said:
"Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them." - Mark 11:24

"So Jesus answered and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ it will be done." - Matthew 21:21

"Then He touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith let it be to you.” " - Matthew 9:29

Amen the word is truth.
But God has given everyone a race to run,they need to run their own race but they would rather sit back and say it's over now,then blame someone for their lack.

 

[Willie T]

Your right Willie most people who are scammed are trying to get something for nothing and their greed hooks them every time.

It is a shame so many people turn to hating, and refuse to avail themselves of the clear promise and action of speaking words of faith into our lives, simply because there are some who abuse it.

 

[Ajax 777]

Doing without seems like it could be a part of "take up your cross and follow me". Inconvenient but enjoying perfect health and material prosperity doesn't sound like bearing much of a cross to me.

"Reaching forward to the things which are ahead" - it's a bit presumptuous to claim Paul was talking about material prosperity in this life when he spoke of the times he had much and the times he had nothing, the times he had been beaten and imprisoned for his faith. Were those just the times he forgot to stand on the promises, or was he actually talking about an eternal reward?

When Jesus said the world would hate us I don't think he meant the world would burn with jealousy of our great material wealth and perfect health.

^^^ THIS post.

Contango, clearly God speaks through you at His chosen times.
I am not ashamed to call you my brother.

You are a blessing, and may He bless you for it.

 

[Alive_Again]

First I'd like to say that if people stopped worrying about Copelands house, car, or money, you'd have time to worry about yourselves. Let God judge His own servants. You know absolutely nothing about his heart condition, what he gives, what he stewards, etc. He's probably given more than all of us will ever give.

So without the real facts, you make the wrong choices and once again, it's just more bad news that you're publishing.

On another front...

Doing without seems like it could be a part of "take up your cross and follow me". Inconvenient but enjoying perfect health and material prosperity doesn't sound like bearing much of a cross to me.

How did Jesus do it? Did He have to go begging for what He had? He had it all. The cross thing primarily relates to persecution.

We know that we're to lay down our own wants and fleshly desires, but in exchange you get His desires. He doesn't desire you to endure lack. He doesn't want His people to abide in the manna stage either. The land flowing with milk and honey was for His people. But we've got to believe it before we enter in.

Even if you believe, you've got to follow His instructions to literally take it from the enemy. If you don't believe it's yours, you definitely wont' be taking it. Some seem to think you'd be wrestling it from God, but that's not the enemy in your Canaan land.

God seemed to make an example out of Paul, but his needs were met too. He did experience a lot of warfare, and God does permit it. Notice what he says about "you" or the others in his message about those things. He wanted you to reign and be full. Not so you would be lazy or covetous, but so that you'd receive your inheritance.

...it's a bit presumptuous to claim Paul was talking about material prosperity in this life when he spoke of the times he had much and the times he had nothing, the times he had been beaten and imprisoned for his faith. Were those just the times he forgot to stand on the promises, or was he actually talking about an eternal reward?

It's assumed that people (presumably WOF) are "dwelling" on material prosperity. We're talking about meeting the needs of spreading your testimony of the gospel. There is a supernatural provision that God could accomplish a lot with, but He's looking for someone that isn't going to be corrupted by it -- a faithful steward.

How many poor people who can't afford to feed their children really need someone to step up and make a difference. How can you do that if you're barely making your bills? We're not talking about personal kingdom building.

When Jesus said the world would hate us I don't think he meant the world would burn with jealousy of our great material wealth and perfect health.

I personally think there will be many surprises for the world because supernatural provision has to come forth to feed this revival. The question is, will you be one of the ones who is able to handle the prosperity, or will you (I) be one of the ones still in the desert fighting to keep focus and believe the manna will be there in the morning (because times are lean)?

Picture it like it is in Heaven. Off course there is warfare and we'll be tested. Then there is the character tests and the Word speaks too much about blessing and what happens if you actually walk in the some of the wisdom that is available to you.

Paul was looking for the people of God to reign so that he could reign with us.

We've got to believe before we can enter in. For sure, we've got to get our eyes off of others and what we think about their business. Focus on the right things.

 

[now faith]

^^^ THIS post.

Contango, clearly God speaks through you at His chosen times.
I am not ashamed to call you my brother.

You are a blessing, and may He bless you for it.

I wonder what Paul was teaching here?



Philippians 4:14 Notwithstanding ye have well done, that ye did communicate with my affliction.Philippians 4:15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.
Philippians 4:16 For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity.Philippians 4:17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.,Philippians 4:18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.Philippians 4:19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

I do not think it has to do with poverty and taking up the Cross,as a matter of fact it's hard to follow anything in poverty.
You know Paul stated he had a based and abound.

He never said he was in continuous lack,he gives praise to the Philippians for sending him provision.
He states it pleases God.
Would it have pleased God if he suffered do to his followers thinking poverty is taking up the Cross.

Paul said he was glad they gave and the act of giving would abound to their account.
God would supply all their need according to his riches.

Do you think God is less than enough or more than enough?

Doing without is not of God,it is a act of self righteousness,look at my sacrifice for Jesus sake.

It is a deceitful doctrinal hypocrisy passed down from post reformation Calvinism.

It portrays a suffering servant of a God who demands we suffer continuously,Christ never taught that he simply said we would be
Persecuted for his sake.
We are even by fellow Christians who are misguided.

Victory in Jesus has no boundaries,because if it did it wouldn't be victory.

 

[hopeinGod]

Where are all the examples of abounding within the church? Who is abounding? Certainly, most families I've known are getting by just paying their bills, if possible, during this continuing recession. In comparision, the main proponents of the give-your-money-to-me-and-God-will-give-to-you baloney are reaping beyond all they could ask or think.

For God does not ask men to provide to any man any percentage of his income on a regular basis. For it is according to what a man hath that he is to give, not what he doesn't have, and if that means a mere penny, then that's it. And besides, if any man is not a provider for his family, we're told that he is worse than an infidel, so how can a father, who has great responsibilities give to get as prescribed by the WOF leaders?

God wants us to be grateful in whatever state we find ourselves. Just how do you think men and women of God who sacrifice their lives to live among tribes in remote regions of the world live? Are buckets of funds provided to them? No, instead they attempt, as best they can, to draw donations from other believers, not to afford them jet planes or glass cathedrals, but to do the true work of missionaries.

Just how many of these types of missionaries do you find coming out of the WOF groups? I'm not talking about the crusades that reach places like South Africa where healing services are set up, but down in the ditches where the deepest needs exist.

Had I been able to join New Tribe Mission when I was in my twenties, I would have, but my health issues were far too much in the way. All of my life, I have suffered with one ailment after the other, much of it genetic and as the result of a poor childhood beginning. Lack was always among us, so there was no room to talk on any other plane than mere survival.

I'm in a much better place today. Still, pain issues plague me. Thankfully, I have more than just another prayer line to stand in after landing employment that provides me impressive healthcare. How many healing services have I attended in my 40 years of being saved? They are countless. So, I'm sure the reason for my lack of healing, by any WOF adherent, would be that I lack(ed) faith.

No, not at all; instead, I lacked a healthcare package that gave me half a chance to live a normal life.

Still, even while I struggled, I alone, and without a bit of assistance, set up my own evangelistic outreach to the people on the streets through which I led many people to the Lord. Did I promise them the sky? No. Did I exaggerate what would happen for them immediately upon accepting the Lord? No. Rather, I told them that what should be built is a day-by-day walk with the Lord whereby they are to seek a deep relationship with Him, and wherever that journey took them, they would have to be armoured, and fight the good fight of faith, to lay hold of promises of inward change, that they were to give their bodies as living sacrifices, which is their reasonable service, and allow the Lord to build in them character, lovingkindness, and brotherly love.

Ambition, I told them, would lead only to a trap of self-serving, while charity would lead to lives that seek not one's own, but rather the betterment of others.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

I wonder what Paul was teaching here?



Philippians 4:14 Notwithstanding ye have well done, that ye did communicate with my affliction.Philippians 4:15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.
Philippians 4:16 For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity.Philippians 4:17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.,Philippians 4:18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.Philippians 4:19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

I do not think it has to do with poverty and taking up the Cross,as a matter of fact it's hard to follow anything in poverty.
You know Paul stated he had a based and abound.

He never said he was in continuous lack,he gives praise to the Philippians for sending him provision.
He states it pleases God.
Would it have pleased God if he suffered do to his followers thinking poverty is taking up the Cross.

Paul said he was glad they gave and the act of giving would abound to their account.
God would supply all their need according to his riches.

Do you think God is less than enough or more than enough?

Doing without is not of God,it is a act of self righteousness,look at my sacrifice for Jesus sake.

It is a deceitful doctrinal hypocrisy passed down from post reformation Calvinism.

It portrays a suffering servant of a God who demands we suffer continuously,Christ never taught that he simply said we would be
Persecuted for his sake.
We are even by fellow Christians who are misguided.

Victory in Jesus has no boundaries,because if it did it wouldn't be victory.

You do remember at the beginning of Phillipians Paul was in a dark hole prison, chained and sitting in his own feces right? Cold, dark, poop, stench, germs, darkness.

You do remember when the earthquake came, the doors flew open and Paul did NOT flee, right? He stayed with the guard who was going to kill himself because he lost the prisoners? He shared the good news of Christ ....

Did God not love Paul when he was in the dark, cold, poop-ridden prison? Probably rats and all sorts of pets for him to fellowship with. But Paul was right in Spirit, he sang hymns of praise to the Lord. That's faith, not word of faith, but the real faith.

 

[Alive_Again]

Did God not love Paul when he was in the dark, cold, poop-ridden prison? Probably rats and all sorts of pets for him to fellowship with. But Paul was right in Spirit, he sang hymns of praise to the Lord. That's faith, not word of faith, but the real faith.

People want to confuse creature comforts with God's blessing. God didn't put prosperity in the gospel so we'd be able to kick back all comfortable while they world is dying in ignorance.

It is completely scriptural to endure some things.There are many persecutions to endure, that we seldom see in this country. In the process of growth and character building, He allows us to be know lack and to have our faith tested in fiery trials. So it seems, the idea behind that is not to see if you'll be broken and just vainly hoping things will change. Some in their lack curse God and find something else to do.

The ideal, is that no matter what is going on around you, that you'll maintain a spirit of thanksgiving, freely praising and worshipping the Lord in the fire... you not even having the smell of smoke on you because you're "in Christ". So the flesh man puts his wants down, and submits to God in resurrection power.

It's a testimony to others (especially believers) if you can do this. BUT, it's not God's best to abide in a devilish, testing fire. But if you do not change your witness in it, coming forth as pure gold, then you passed the test. I know life is not just one test. It's a series of them, and you get rewarded as you go through and passing them.

But you'd have itching ears to just find the fiery trial scriptures, because the example of God in the Word is abundance. Along the way, the drama we know in the world might take place.

Picture how Jesus had it. He didn't even take thought to having to carry a burden. God provided people to take care of certain aspects of the ministry, including collections. God always had someone selected to provide lodging, they ate. God multiplied available food, so what's the worry?

But Paul was right in Spirit, he sang hymns of praise to the Lord. That's faith, not word of faith, but the real faith

It's Word of faith because it is the Word.

But slights only serve to divide. So people speak out of their understanding of what they understand things (like WOF) to be like. They don't resemble the truth.

The reality is, whatever the Word says in perfect balance is true Word of Faith. It's still being discovered. The Word of faith ideal is to be one who fulfills the Word, just as it set forth. And just like you in your walk, you have to adjust your doctrine as necessary. And going forward, not considering the past or the mistakes of others, just like your walk, you don't get credited for other people's mistakes or perceptions of what you believe.

But the foundation for WOF, is knowing that the promises of God are for you right now. There is a prophetic word that came forth a few years ago, where He keeps saying, "It is done!" This means, the work is already accomplished, and He's waiting for someone to act like it's so.

 

[now faith]

You do remember at the beginning of Phillipians Paul was in a dark hole prison, chained and sitting in his own feces right? Cold, dark, poop, stench, germs, darkness.

You do remember when the earthquake came, the doors flew open and Paul did NOT flee, right? He stayed with the guard who was going to kill himself because he lost the prisoners? He shared the good news of Christ ....

Did God not love Paul when he was in the dark, cold, poop-ridden prison? Probably rats and all sorts of pets for him to fellowship with. But Paul was right in Spirit, he sang hymns of praise to the Lord. That's faith, not word of faith, but the real faith.

As I posted Paul a based and abound,God performed a mighty work from this event it gave God glory.
You know Paul did not stay in that prison,

We do not deny affliction,we deny its right.
We proclaim the victory in Christ,by faith in God our light afflictions are but for a moment.

Why must you give glory to poop and rats,when you could Give God the Glory for the souls
Saved by this event.

Are your afflictions any different than mine?
Am I on easy street and your on tobacco road?

What separates us is I know it's not God's will for torment in my life.
I know we have a mutual enemy,I deny his right to touch my health,my joy and my finances.
I will not give Satan glory by living in defeat,then blaming God for what Satan has taken.

Paul indeed mentions he wanted to visit in person but Satan held him back.
Yet Paul abounded giving us a great teaching in his legacy.

So are you going to be held back or move forward?

What is God's will for your life?

I have to speak in metaphor but once you realize who and what you are in Christ,poop and rats are not God's best for those sons and daughters who cry Abba.

 

[now faith]

Where are all the examples of abounding within the church? Who is abounding? Certainly, most families I've known are getting by just paying their bills, if possible, during this continuing recession. In comparision, the main proponents of the give-your-money-to-me-and-God-will-give-to-you baloney are reaping beyond all they could ask or think.

For God does not ask men to provide to any man any percentage of his income on a regular basis. For it is according to what a man hath that he is to give, not what he doesn't have, and if that means a mere penny, then that's it. And besides, if any man is not a provider for his family, we're told that he is worse than an infidel, so how can a father, who has great responsibilities give to get as prescribed by the WOF leaders?

God wants us to be grateful in whatever state we find ourselves. Just how do you think men and women of God who sacrifice their lives to live among tribes in remote regions of the world live? Are buckets of funds provided to them? No, instead they attempt, as best they can, to draw donations from other believers, not to afford them jet planes or glass cathedrals, but to do the true work of missionaries.

Just how many of these types of missionaries do you find coming out of the WOF groups? I'm not talking about the crusades that reach places like South Africa where healing services are set up, but down in the ditches where the deepest needs exist.

Had I been able to join New Tribe Mission when I was in my twenties, I would have, but my health issues were far too much in the way. All of my life, I have suffered with one ailment after the other, much of it genetic and as the result of a poor childhood beginning. Lack was always among us, so there was no room to talk on any other plane than mere survival.

I'm in a much better place today. Still, pain issues plague me. Thankfully, I have more than just another prayer line to stand in after landing employment that provides me impressive healthcare. How many healing services have I attended in my 40 years of being saved? They are countless. So, I'm sure the reason for my lack of healing, by any WOF adherent, would be that I lack(ed) faith.

No, not at all; instead, I lacked a healthcare package that gave me half a chance to live a normal life.

Still, even while I struggled, I alone, and without a bit of assistance, set up my own evangelistic outreach to the people on the streets through which I led many people to the Lord. Did I promise them the sky? No. Did I exaggerate what would happen for them immediately upon accepting the Lord? No. Rather, I told them that what should be built is a day-by-day walk with the Lord whereby they are to seek a deep relationship with Him, and wherever that journey took them, they would have to be armoured, and fight the good fight of faith, to lay hold of promises of inward change, that they were to give their bodies as living sacrifices, which is their reasonable service, and allow the Lord to build in them character, lovingkindness, and brotherly love.

Ambition, I told them, would lead only to a trap of self-serving, while charity would lead to lives that seek not one's own, but rather the betterment of others.

So tithe is not your belief?
And your church is barely getting by.

You believe God heals sometimes but not always.

Just reading between the lines but are we to live in a state of fighting the good fight.

A good fight is one you win.

You may want to think about obedience in God because disobedience will hinder your prayers.


I don't believe your I led people.
If any are won for Christ it is the Holy Spirit doing the winning.

Yep you say we are self-serving and care only for wealth.
If your not tithing your holding on to money a lot tighter than we are.

Turn it loose see what God will do.

Myself I can do nothing but in Christ I can do all things.

To some it is about what I did,for others it's about what God does.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"We know if a person will trust in what provisions the Bible has set fourth,they will live in the fullness God intended for them."

But the need still remains to explain WHY the practitioners of "Popular WoF" aren't MORE "Prosperous", "Healthy", or "Victorious" than the "Other NON-WoF churches" around them. There doesn't seem to be any discernible difference at all in the way their people Live, and prosper.

IF there were, then there would be no "Controversy" over whether WoF Practices/methodology/Theology are actually viable, or not. The wasn't any QUESTION about the Church in Acts 4 -

SO far, I've watched God Heal, Deliver, Provide for, and bless folks in my NON-WoF church environment. I've been blessed, and my salary has risen every year for the last decade without BOTHERING with WoF "Methodology".

TO me it's exceedingly simple - PS 37:5
Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.

No "Positive profession" no "Claiming" this or that, no presumption no "Magic words" about what God will do. Just REST in Him, and do what HE guides you into.

Simple as that. HE knows more about what's good for us than WE do.

 

[contango]

First I'd like to say that if people stopped worrying about Copelands house, car, or money, you'd have time to worry about yourselves. Let God judge His own servants. You know absolutely nothing about his heart condition, what he gives, what he stewards, etc. He's probably given more than all of us will ever give.

So without the real facts, you make the wrong choices and once again, it's just more bad news that you're publishing.

What's Copeland got to do with my post? I don't recall even mentioning him. I know of his name and have heard stuff (good and bad) about him but I can't say I'm really interested in him as an individual. I don't remember saying anything about his heart condition either.

On another front...

How did Jesus do it? Did He have to go begging for what He had? He had it all. The cross thing primarily relates to persecution.

Jesus did have a slight advantage over us in that he was divine. It does open a few doors that don't open quite so quickly when you're a mere mortal like you and I.

We know that we're to lay down our own wants and fleshly desires, but in exchange you get His desires. He doesn't desire you to endure lack. He doesn't want His people to abide in the manna stage either. The land flowing with milk and honey was for His people. But we've got to believe it before we enter in.

It's a bit presumptuous to argue that God doesn't want us to endure anything when we look at the way some of his children are treated on earth. We can see John exiled to the island of Patmos, the tail end of Hebrews 11 talking of some people who saw miracles through faith and others who were slain, sawn in two, destitute and afflicted. Crucially the writer of Hebrews says that the world was not worthy of people such as these.

Even if you believe, you've got to follow His instructions to literally take it from the enemy. If you don't believe it's yours, you definitely wont' be taking it. Some seem to think you'd be wrestling it from God, but that's not the enemy in your Canaan land.

God seemed to make an example out of Paul, but his needs were met too. He did experience a lot of warfare, and God does permit it. Notice what he says about "you" or the others in his message about those things. He wanted you to reign and be full. Not so you would be lazy or covetous, but so that you'd receive your inheritance.

I'm not going to dispute that if God wants us to pray for something specific and we don't pray, we shouldn't assume we're going to get it all anyway. In Phillipians 4 Paul talks of how he has learned to be full and to be hungry, to abound and to suffer need. So clearly he is familiar with times when God isn't providing him with what he thinks he needs - he is left hungry and suffering need at times. Did he forget to just take what he needed from the enemy when he was bound in chains?

It's assumed that people (presumably WOF) are "dwelling" on material prosperity. We're talking about meeting the needs of spreading your testimony of the gospel. There is a supernatural provision that God could accomplish a lot with, but He's looking for someone that isn't going to be corrupted by it -- a faithful steward.

What resources does it take to talk to our friends and associates about our faith in Christ? What resources do we need to display the hope that is within us?

How many poor people who can't afford to feed their children really need someone to step up and make a difference. How can you do that if you're barely making your bills? We're not talking about personal kingdom building.

Maybe those who are poor aren't called to step in and make a difference to those particular people, or maybe they are called to give sacrificially so the recipient can see the level of giving. If a family in need is thrown a few crumbs by a millionaire it's easy to see how it could look patronising. If that same family is given something they need by a family who is just as hard up but who decided to go without so they could give, that speaks much more loudly.

I personally think there will be many surprises for the world because supernatural provision has to come forth to feed this revival. The question is, will you be one of the ones who is able to handle the prosperity, or will you (I) be one of the ones still in the desert fighting to keep focus and believe the manna will be there in the morning (because times are lean)?

Which revival are you talking about here? And why does anyone have to "handle the prosperity" when God could provide what is needed as and when it is needed? It's a bit presumptuous to decide that God must work in a particular way and we're going to have to deal with lots of material wealth in the process. Maybe some will, maybe some will not, but let's let God decide that rather than assuming.

If God wants a huge meeting in a conference centre that costs $500,000 to book there's no reason why God shouldn't provide the $500,000 and there's also no reason why God shouldn't pull strings behind the scenes such that the conference centre has a cancellation and ends up offering it to a group of God's people for a nominal fee.

Picture it like it is in Heaven. Off course there is warfare and we'll be tested. Then there is the character tests and the Word speaks too much about blessing and what happens if you actually walk in the some of the wisdom that is available to you.

Heaven is a great picture, but we aren't there yet. Until we get to heaven we live in an imperfect world.

Paul was looking for the people of God to reign so that he could reign with us.

I'm not sure how this interpretation fits with "take up your cross and follow me". If the world hates us (as Jesus said it would) it's unlikely to accept us as its rulers. Jesus had more right than any man who ever lived to reign on this earth and yet he chose to humble himself in just about every way. How presumptuous do we need to be to assume we can expect a better life than the King of Kings had when he walked the earth as a man?

We've got to believe before we can enter in. For sure, we've got to get our eyes off of others and what we think about their business. Focus on the right things.

We also need to be more specific than just "enter in". If we're going to "enter in" we'd do well to be sure just what it is we're about to "enter into".

 

[contango]

So tithe is not your belief?
And your church is barely getting by.

Looking at churches that I attend and churches that friends attend I've seen a number of churches that teach tithing that seem to be in a constant state of shortage, and churches that teach giving as a general concept rather than a precise amount that do very well.

You believe God heals sometimes but not always.

I think it's pretty obvious from looking around that God heals some of the time. I've seen a few people make what can only be described as miraculous recoveries, and I also know a few people who have struggled with illnesses for literally decades.

Just reading between the lines but are we to live in a state of fighting the good fight.

A good fight is one you win.

A good fight is one that is undertaken for a good cause. If a good fight is one that we win then Hitler invading Poland was a good fight.

 

[now faith]

"We know if a person will trust in what provisions the Bible has set fourth,they will live in the fullness God intended for them."

But the need still remains to explain WHY the practitioners of "Popular WoF" aren't MORE "Prosperous", "Healthy", or "Victorious" than the "Other NON-WoF churches" around them. There doesn't seem to be any discernible difference at all in the way their people Live, and prosper.

IF there were, then there would be no "Controversy" over whether WoF Practices/methodology/Theology are actually viable, or not. The wasn't any QUESTION about the Church in Acts 4 -

SO far, I've watched God Heal, Deliver, Provide for, and bless folks in my NON-WoF church environment. I've been blessed, and my salary has risen every year for the last decade without BOTHERING with WoF "Methodology".

TO me it's exceedingly simple - PS 37:5
Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.

No "Positive profession" no "Claiming" this or that, no presumption no "Magic words" about what God will do. Just REST in Him, and do what HE guides you into.

Simple as that. HE knows more about what's good for us than WE do.

Amen,you are right Bob.
I know of a Baptist Church that every week someone comes to the Lord
They have had the same Pastor for 35 years and he was going to retire a few years ago.

Something wonderful happened a joy came over the Church the Pastor has decided God is not done with him.

The only major change I see is his view on receiving has changed.
Someone gave him a brand new pickup deluxe,instead of turning it back he drives it.

He has learned to receive and it's ok to have something nice,God has blessed his giving.

It's not a WOF thing it's a Bible thing,give and it shall be given unto you.

I go to a nondenominational Church if I ever leave there I will go to the Bapist Church filled with joy.

My Church is filled with joy and is using music as a means for Evangelism.

I can't play anything but I can witness in the crowd.

Anyone can live a joyful life in Christ and have no lack of anything.

 

[hopeinGod]

What separates us is I know it's not God's will for torment in my life.

Not everyting that feels bad in this life comes to us by way of the devil. So many misinterpretations have been made by WOF adherents regarding the incidents and circumstances in their lives, since, as they see it, there are only two sources through which they are challenged: it's either the devil -- which is the prefered choice in most instances -- personal sin, or the world. Suffering cannot, by their own admission, come from God.

However, there are three avenues through which a believer is led to suffer: the devil, one's own self will and sin, and God Himself. Yes, God has appointed to each believer trials, tribulations, persecutions, and even the very destruction of a nation's livelihood if need be. Such an act would be called judgment.

The Lord has, in times past, used whatsoever He felt necessary to accomplish His purposes. "For thus saith the Lord God; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?" He did this to bring about a remnant, a committed people most willing to seek Him and walk in obedience.

Today, the Lord still continues to cause shakings, which, as we've seen has been taking place within Christian circles for several decades now. Why? To deliver His people from false teachings and teachers, and to, finally, get believers to place the Lord Himself as first in their lives, not merchandise, not success, not fame, not kingdom building, but God Himself.

But this cannot take place without there being a sifting out of what it was that took the hearts away from God's intent, to establish His people in the truth, not some fabrication of the truth that is being used to create great self serving kingdoms that we see existing even to this day.

This is why folks are hearing the voice to separate themselves from these heretical teachings and to come together in small groups where they will lay aside the prescribed notions of giving to gain. Instead, they should be learning and be led to serve the saints and downtrodden. Anything else is merely a game that believers get sucked into, thinking in themselves that "gain is godliness," which it isn't, and never will be.

 

[Alive_Again]

Which revival are you talking about here? And why does anyone have to "handle the prosperity" when God could provide what is needed as and when it is needed?

I'm referring to this great end time harvest that is surely coming.

From what I've seen is that God needs people who won't be ruined by it. You can tell by lottery winners that money can corrupt. God is working to take covetouness out of His people. Those are the people He can trust with great wealth. He could supernaturally bring about a great prosperity and move it the way He desires if our hearts were pure and we had His precepts built into us about what its for. In short, He wants to train His people to prosper His kingdom (not ours).

It's a bit presumptuous to decide that God must work in a particular way and we're going to have to deal with lots of material wealth in the process. Maybe some will, maybe some will not, but let's let God decide that rather than assuming.

I believe He's been speaking about this for some time.

If God wants a huge meeting in a conference centre that costs $500,000 to book there's no reason why God shouldn't provide the $500,000 and there's also no reason why God shouldn't pull strings behind the scenes such that the conference centre has a cancellation and ends up offering it to a group of God's people for a nominal fee.

The pattern has been to use His own people. Many aren't in the habit of forking over large sums of money. With the stuff I've been hearing about finance, He wants to train certain (willing) people who will give at the slightest tug (any amount). This is without any thought of the consequence. It's the steward's heart. It's not his money anyway.

Most people's minds are geared toward tithing, so it's a new kind of training. It's actually very exciting. The foundation of this is hearing and doing. When He tells you to fill the pitchers full of water, you don't stop to figure out why.

The main teaching of all this is profoundly what you'd call "word of faith". It means spending time in the presence of the Lord, ministering to Him, speaking the Word of God in your heart (like a farmer, not someone whimsical), someone who prays in the Spirit a LOT. From this pattern and lifestyle of renewal, the voice of the Lord is more clearly heard until as I believe He once said, "My voice will be the most clear voice you will hear.".

The idea is to hear the preaching of the Word along these lines, and then getting the revelation of it in your spirit, and stalking it out like a hunter. Over time, this "ripening of the spirit" takes place. He reshapes you on the inside and builds up a greater degree of trust (in Him). The more He trusts you to be a do'er, the more hearing you get. You're accountable for what you hear so it's important to follow through.

It's something we all desperately need to fully enter into and not let slip. It's more fully entering into the rest of God (where hearing comes). It's a fight to put everything else aside and not get turned away.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

I'm referring to this great end time harvest that is surely coming.

From what I've seen is that God needs people who won't be ruined by it. You can tell by lottery winners that money can corrupt. God is working to take covetouness out of His people. Those are the people He can trust with great wealth. He could supernaturally bring about a great prosperity and move it the way He desires if our hearts were pure and we had His precepts built into us about what its for. In short, He wants to train His people to prosper His kingdom (not ours).

I don't believe their is a coming great end time harvest either.

The end times are said to be 'like the times of Noah'. During the times of Noah, it is said the world was so wicked that He could find only a few that were not wicked. Then He wiped out the world in the flood, leaving only Noah and his family as survivors.

I hope this is not dominion/NAR theology on your part. Where in the bible are you getting the text that their will be and end time harvest?

 

[contango]

I'm referring to this great end time harvest that is surely coming.

What end time harvest would that be? The Bible seems to suggest the exact opposite:

2Th 2:3-4 NKJV Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, (4) who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

From what I've seen is that God needs people who won't be ruined by it. You can tell by lottery winners that money can corrupt. God is working to take covetouness out of His people. Those are the people He can trust with great wealth. He could supernaturally bring about a great prosperity and move it the way He desires if our hearts were pure and we had His precepts built into us about what its for. In short, He wants to train His people to prosper His kingdom (not ours).

Why does God need to give people great wealth at all? It's no secret that money can corrupt, that much has been clear since the time Jesus walked the earth if not longer still. When God owns the cattle on a thousand hills why does he need to concentrate wealth into the hands of a few?

I believe He's been speaking about this for some time.

He has? Can you indicate where?

The pattern has been to use His own people. Many aren't in the habit of forking over large sums of money. With the stuff I've been hearing about finance, He wants to train certain (willing) people who will give at the slightest tug (any amount). This is without any thought of the consequence. It's the steward's heart. It's not his money anyway.

Where are you hearing this from? I don't doubt for a minute that God may use people who will give at a moment's notice but it's a bit presumptuous to assume that God needs a small number of inconceivably wealthy people so they can do all the giving. What of stories like the widow's mite, what's stopping God from using lots of people all giving to the same cause? It's worked perfectly well for a long time.

Most people's minds are geared toward tithing, so it's a new kind of training. It's actually very exciting. The foundation of this is hearing and doing. When He tells you to fill the pitchers full of water, you don't stop to figure out why.

Tithing is an Old Testament construct, although I'll agree that a lot of people seem to like the nice clean answer to "how much do I have to give?" (in other words, "what's the minimum I have to do to tick the give box?"). If God tells a group to fill the pitchers there's no reason why one person has to fill it themselves - why can't God call a dozen people, or a hundred people, to give such that the total is what is needed?

The main teaching of all this is profoundly what you'd call "word of faith". It means spending time in the presence of the Lord, ministering to Him, speaking the Word of God in your heart (like a farmer, not someone whimsical), someone who prays in the Spirit a LOT. From this pattern and lifestyle of renewal, the voice of the Lord is more clearly heard until as I believe He once said, "My voice will be the most clear voice you will hear.".

Sounds fine in theory but why is it needed by the masses if God is only going to choose a select few to do all the work? Perhaps you could also clarify just how you go about "spending time in the presence of the Lord" and how we "minister to Him". It sounds good and spiritual but unless you can explain what it means it sounds more like gnosticism.

The idea is to hear the preaching of the Word along these lines, and then getting the revelation of it in your spirit, and stalking it out like a hunter. Over time, this "ripening of the spirit" takes place. He reshapes you on the inside and builds up a greater degree of trust (in Him). The more He trusts you to be a do'er, the more hearing you get. You're accountable for what you hear so it's important to follow through.

I'm not sure what lines you're talking about here. Since you started with a presumption that there will be "a great harvest" when the Bible says there will be "a great falling away" some clarification would be good.

It's something we all desperately need to fully enter into and not let slip. It's more fully entering into the rest of God (where hearing comes). It's a fight to put everything else aside and not get turned away.

Perhaps you could also clarify how one goes about "fully entering into the rest of God"?