From what law did Paul set us free?

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Please answer this one question (it is ok if you just say you don't know what it means): How does being under grace and not under law prevent sin from having dominion over you/us?

I will give you a hint: "Sin shall not have dominion (future tense) over you, for you are not (present tense) under law but under grace".

 

[Gary K]

Please answer this one question (it is ok if you just say you don't know what it means): How does being under grace and not under law prevent sin from having dominion over you/us?

Sorry, I missed this.

How can someone not be under the control of sin if it is continually causing them to sin? It doesnt matter if they confess it and are forgiven if they keep on sinning. They are still under the control of sin.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Sorry, I missed this.

How can someone not be under the control of sin if it is continually causing them to sin? It doesnt matter if they confess it and are forgiven if they keep on sinning. They are still under the control of sin.

Did you mean this to be the answer to my question? I don't see how your response explains how being under grace and not law prevents sin from having dominion over us.

 

[guevaraj]

Did you mean this to be the answer to my question? I don't see how your response explains how being under grace and not law prevents sin from having dominion over us.

Brother, the grace of having many forgivenesses through our High Priest Jesus is not the answer to sin, but the means to gain "dominion" over sin by growing in obedience through practice of God's Eleven Commandments that remove sin when obeyed. We grow out of sin like a child who learns to walk by getting up again and again until he no longer falls. The "law" Paul speaks of that we are no longer under is the human "law" of Judaism that sabotaged God's "order" through the prophets to not remove sin. For example, Judaism is cursed because instead of obeying God by learning to use His name properly, Judaism replaced God's Third Commandment with their own human "law" to not utter God's name at all, thus disobeying to learn to use God's name properly. We do the same thing Judaism did by replacing the Sabbath in the Fourth Commandment with Sunday, started by the bishops of Rome, replacing what God asks with human tradition that does not remove the sin that leads to death. The translators always attributing "law" alone to God is a misrepresentation of Paul's message and Jesus' words in the second passage. Most "law" comes from humans and not from God, who uses different words for what comes from Him, so as not to confuse his "order" through the prophets with the "law" of Judaism that mainly comes from humans.

Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law(nomos, of humans in Judaism), does that mean we can go on sinning (disobeying the Eleven Commandments)? Of course not (don't misunderstand God's grace in the Father putting Jesus as our High Priest)! Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey (sin or God)? You can be a slave to sin (disobeying the Eleven Commandments), which leads to death (like Judaism's sabotage of not obeying "all" of God's Ten Commandments), or you can choose to obey God (Eleven Commandments that remove sin), which leads to righteous living (freedom from sin). Thank God (Jesus' many forgivenesses as our High Priest allowing us to grow in obedience through practice of the Eleven Commandments that remove sin)! Once you were slaves of sin (disobeying the Eleven Commandments), but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you (Eleven Commandments). Now you are free from your slavery to sin (when you obey Jesus' Eleven Commandments), and you have become slaves to righteous living (obeying the Eleven Commandments). (Romans 6:15-18 NLT overlaid with commentary)​

Paul does not use the word "law" the way the translators force its use, as they also do with Jesus in the following passage. When Jesus is clearly referring to one of the Ten Commandments, the translators replace the word "commandment" with the word "law", which Jesus did not use in the following passage. Similarly, Paul uses the word "law" differently than the translators to refer to the "law" of human origin in Judaism, made clear when Paul compares Judaism to Hagar. Humans replaced Sarah with Hagar to give a son to Abraham when that is not what God wanted and did with the birth of Isaac through Sarah.

Jesus replied, “You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote, ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commandments from God.’ For you ignore God’s law/commandment and substitute your own tradition.” Then he said, “You skillfully sidestep God’s law(nomos)/commandment(entolé) in order to hold on to your own tradition. For instance, Moses gave you this law(nomos)/commandment(entolé) from God: ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and ‘Anyone who speaks disrespectfully of father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say it is all right for people to say to their parents, ‘Sorry, I can’t help you. For I have vowed to give to God what I would have given to you.’ In this way, you let them disregard their needy parents. And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition. And this is only one example among many others.” (Mark 7:6-13 NLT fixed)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Gary K]

Did you mean this to be the answer to my question? I don't see how your response explains how being under grace and not law prevents sin from having dominion over us.

My answer isn't hard to understand. I'm in agreement with you on that.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Brother, the grace of having many forgivenesses through our High Priest Jesus is not the answer to sin, but the means to gain "dominion" over sin by growing in obedience through practice of God's Eleven Commandments that remove sin when obeyed.

You certainly are a solid proponent of obedience to the law through grace. I'm going to leave you to it.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

My answer isn't hard to understand. I'm in agreement with you on that.

To me it is hard to understand. How does not being under law prevent sin from having dominion over a person?

 

[pasifika]

Did you mean this to be the answer to my question? I don't see how your response explains how being under grace and not law prevents sin from having dominion over us.

Cos you belong to a new man i.e. the ONE that raised from the grave. You are under Him now. Romans 7:4

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Ok, I’ll give you all the answer, which those who fervently hold on to rightness with God through obedience to the law will be obligated to reject:

Sin’s ability to adversely affect our future relationship with God is destroyed because we are not currently under law, but under grace. We are free now to serve God in the newness of the Spirit, and not the oldness of the letter.

 

[guevaraj]

To me it is hard to understand. How does not being under law prevent sin from having dominion over a person?

Brother, when the "law" referred to keeps people in "sin" by making them disobey God! No longer being under that human "law" in Judaism allows people to obey God, who does take away sin, as we practice the correct use of God's name. Doing what God asked instead of the human "law" of Judaism that prevents people from obeying God. Those who still follow the human "law" of Judaism, instead of obeying God by not uttering God's name at all, disobey to learn to use God's name correctly and gain "dominion" over the sin that is prevalent among the disobedient.

Jesus replied, “You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you, for he wrote, ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commandments from God.’ For you ignore God’s law/commandment and substitute your own tradition.” Then he said, “You skillfully sidestep God’s law(nomos)/commandment(entolé) in order to hold on to your own tradition. For instance, Moses gave you this law(nomos)/commandment(entolé) from God: ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and ‘Anyone who speaks disrespectfully of father or mother must be put to death.’ But you say it is all right for people to say to their parents, ‘Sorry, I can’t help you. For I have vowed to give to God what I would have given to you.’ In this way, you let them disregard their needy parents. And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition. And this is only one example among many others.” (Mark 7:6-13 NLT fixed)​

Sin’s ability to adversely affect our future relationship with God is destroyed because we are not currently under law, but under grace. We are free now to serve God in the newness of the Spirit, and not the oldness of the letter.

Paul is not referring to the Holy Spirit as the translators force by adding the word holy before the word Spirit not found in the original. Jesus is the model "Spirit" to follow Paul speaks of in obedience to the Ten Commandments when compared to Judaism's sabotage to not remove the sin that the Ten Commandments were written in "letters" in stone to remove. Judaism prevented the removal of sin in God's "order" through the prophet Moses by substituting God's Ten Commandments with their own human "law", that Jesus has freed us from in Paul's message and not from God's "order" through the prophet Moses like our sinful human nature wants. For example, Judaism is cursed because instead of obeying God by learning to use His name properly, Judaism replaced God's Third Commandment for those who would be the sons of Sarah, with their own human "law" to not utter God's name at all in the resulting sons of Hagar, thus disobeying to learn to use God's name properly. Like them, the human excuse today for disobeying the Ten Commandments is to say that we now follow the Holy Spirit, in a misunderstanding of Paul's use of the word "Spirit" in the following passage, where Jesus is the model Spirit to follow in obedience to the Ten Commandments, instead of Judaism's human tradition replacing the letters written in stone. Paul is not referring to the Holy Spirit as a substitute to disobey Jesus’ Eleven Commandments, forced by the translators by adding the word holy before the word “Spirit”, when the word holy is not found in the original. Paul tells us the word "Spirit" is Jesus and not the Holy Spirit by saying in the passage: "the Lord—who is the Spirit—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image". Following Jesus as the model "Spirit" who obeyed the Ten Commandments as the example for the sons of Sarah, rather than Judaism's replacement of human law in the resulting sons of Hagar, will result in obeying "all" the Ten Commandments that Judaism did not obey. Judaism, like us today, did not obey the Ten Commandments by instead replacing what God asked with human traditions, like us replacing the Sabbath with Sunday. People use the word "Spirit" in this passage to refer to the Holy Spirit instead of Jesus, because they want to do away with the Ten Commandments when that is not Paul's message but what our sinful human nature wants. Paul's message wants us to obey "all" the Ten Commandments by having us follow Jesus as the model "Spirit" in the following passage instead of Judaism's tradition of not obeying "all" the Ten Commandments when they replaced the Ten Commandments with human "law".

We are confident of all this because of our great trust in God through Christ (as the model "Spirit" to follow). It is not that we think we are qualified to do anything on our own (like excusing our disobedience of the Ten Commandments as coming from the Holy Spirit). Our qualification comes from God (sending us Jesus as the model "Spirit" to follow). He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to follow). This is a covenant not of the letter (Ten Commandments), but of the Spirit (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to follow and not the Holy Spirit used as an excuse to disobey the Ten Commandments when Jesus obeyed them). The letter ends in death (sabotaged by Judaism to not remove sin); but the Spirit (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to follow) gives life (the removal of sin). The old way (God's "order" by the prophet Moses), with letters etched in stone (Ten Commandments), led to death (sabotaged by Judaism to not remove sin), though it began with such glory (leading to righteousness) that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses’ face. For his face shone with the glory of God (which is His righteousness expressed in the Ten Commandments), even though the brightness was already fading away (Judaism's unwillingness to obey "all" the Ten Commandments). Shouldn’t we expect far greater glory under the new way (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to follow), now that the Holy (added by the translators) Spirit (not the Holy Spirit but Jesus as the model "Spirit" to follow) gives life? If the old way (written letters etched in stone), which brings condemnation (Judaism not fully obeying "all" the Ten Commandments by replacing them with human "law"), was glorious (leading to righteousness), how much more glorious (leading to righteousness) is the new way (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to follow), which makes us right with God (removes sin)! In fact, that first glory (which led to righteousness) was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory (leading to righteousness) of the new way (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to follow). So if the old way (written letters etched in stone), which has been replaced, was glorious (led to righteousness), how much more glorious (leading to righteousness) is the new (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to follow), which remains forever! Since this new way (of following the model "Spirit" of Jesus, rather than Judaism's human "law") gives us such confidence, we can be very bold (learning to use God's name properly, which Judaism does not). We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory (of God's righteousness), even though it was destined to fade away (by Judaism's unwillingness to obey all the Ten Commandments). But the people’s minds were hardened (to not obey all the Ten Commandments), and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth (of the failure of replacing God's Commandments with their own human law). And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ (as the model "Spirit" to follow). Yes, even today when they read Moses’ writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand (they failed to obey all of God's Ten Commandments by substituting them with human "law"). But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. For the Lord is the Spirit (Jesus is the model "Spirit" to follow who obeyed the Ten Commandments as our example and Paul is not referring to the Holy Spirit as an excuse to disobey the Ten Commandments), and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (from sin and not from God's Ten Commandments). So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord (in obeying the Ten Commandments). And the Lord—who is the Spirit (Jesus is the model "Spirit" Paul is telling us to follow and not the Holy Spirit, whose job is to tell us things through prophets and remind us of Jesus as the model "Spirit" to follow)—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image. (2 Corinthians 3:4-18 NLT fixed and overlaid with commentary)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Gary K]

To me it is hard to understand. How does not being under law prevent sin from having dominion over a person?

Ok. Scripture says exactly that.

Joh_8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

I don't know how scripture can make it any clearer that to be overcome by sin is to be controlled by sin and lasds to death.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Ok. Scripture says exactly that.

Joh_8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire

I don't know how scripture can make it any clearer that to be overcome by sin is to be controlled by sin and lasds to death.

What you said and quoted is literally the opposite of Romans 6:14.

 

[Gary K]

What you said and quoted is literally the opposite of Romans 6:14.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

You've never heard of proving something by saying the opposite just to make a point? Sin has dominion over you if we sin because .we are under grace Jesus grace enables us to obey just as Matthew tells us.

Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Jesus saves us from our sins, not in our sins.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

You've never heard of proving something by saying the opposite just to make a point? Sin has dominion over you if we sin because .we are under grace Jesus grace enables us to obey just as Matthew tells us.



Jesus saves us from our sins, not in our sins.

I don't think you said the opposite on purpose to make a point. I think you said the opposite because you believe the opposite.

It is true that Jesus said, "whoever commits sin is a slave of sin" (Jn 8:34). But that is not what Romans 6:14 is about. It is about sin not having dominion over us because we are not under law (which convicts us as sinners) but we are under grace (under which our failures to obey the law are forgiven). John 8:34 paints the desparate situation that all human beings face prior to salvation in Christ. And Jesus' point was not to condemn all sinners to hell, it was to let them know that "if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed". (Jn 8:36). That is the point of Romans 6:14 -- we are free indeed because Jesus set us free from the law and it's condemation for our sin.

Likewise, your quotes from 2 Peter have nothing to do with being under grace and not under law resulting in no conedmnation for sin. They have to do with unrighteousness leading to eternal judgment.

Again, you are not saying the opposite on purpose to prove a point. You're saying the opposite because you believe the opposite. You do not believe that we are not under law. You do not believe grace is greater than all our sins (as the old hymn says). You believe grace is the means by which we obey the law (because we are under law), and if we sin in spite of the grace given to us resist sin, then we are not saved. Again, this is the opposite of what Romans 6:14 says. Maybe you can show me how my reading of your posts is wrong. I hope so.

 

[Gary K]

I don't think you said the opposite on purpose to make a point. I think you said the opposite because you believe the opposite.

It is true that Jesus said, "whoever commits sin is a slave of sin" (Jn 8:34). But that is not what Romans 6:14 is about. It is about sin not having dominion over us because we are not under law (which convicts us as sinners) but we are under grace (under which our failures to obey the law are forgiven). John 8:34 paints the desparate situation that all human beings face prior to salvation in Christ. And Jesus' point was not to condemn all sinners to hell, it was to let them know that "if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed". (Jn 8:36). That is the point of Romans 6:14 -- we are free indeed because Jesus set us free from the law and it's condemation for our sin.

Likewise, your quotes from 2 Peter have nothing to do with being under grace and not under law resulting in no conedmnation for sin. They have to do with unrighteousness leading to eternal judgment.

Again, you are not saying the opposite on purpose to prove a point. You're saying the opposite because you believe the opposite. You do not believe that we are not under law. You do not believe grace is greater than all our sins (as the old hymn says). You believe grace is the means by which we obey the law (because we are under law), and if we sin in spite of the grace given to us resist sin, then we are not saved. Again, this is the opposite of what Romans 6:14 says. Maybe you can show me how my reading of your posts is wrong. I hope so.

I'll just respond this way to this as I figured I would probably have to.

Back in 2001 or 2002 I went back to school and took a class in logic. In one of the first papers we had to write the proff read my paper in class. He prefaced what he said by saying when I first read Gary's paper I was really puzzled by what he wrote. I had to think on it quite a while before I understood what he was doing. He started off by addressing the weakness of the position he had to defend and then moved on to actually defending the position he was supposed to defend. He said he'd never seen it done before and I had a very strong defense of my position.

So my logic often escapes people. You're not the first one this has happened to. nor will you be the last.

God gave me a remarkable mind so that I able to pick out logical inconsistencies. I got whipped as a 2nd through 4th grade kid because my old man didn't like his little kid pointing out the obvious flaws in his logic. It infuriated him.

I started out to point out the obvious mistakes in your reasoning but decided it wasn't worth infuriating you so I'll just bow out of this discussion and you can say I was too much of an idiot to understand you.

Talk to you later some time.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I'll just respond this way to this as I figured I would probably have to.

Back in 2001 or 2002 I went back to school and took a class in logic. In one of the first papers we had to write the proff read my paper in class. He prefaced what he said by saying when I first read Gary's paper I was really puzzled by what he wrote. I had to think on it quite a while before I understood what he was doing. He started off by addressing the weakness of the position he had to defend and then moved on to actually defending the position he was supposed to defend. He said he'd never seen it done before and I had a very strong defense of my position.

So my logic often escapes people. You're not the first one this has happened to. nor will you be the last.

God gave me a remarkable mind so that I able to pick out logical inconsistencies. I got whipped as a 2nd through 4th grade kid because my old man didn't like his little kid pointing out the obvious flaws in his logic. It infuriated him.

I started out to point out the obvious mistakes in your reasoning but decided it wasn't worth infuriating you so I'll just bow out of this discussion and you can say I was too much of an idiot to understand you.

Talk to you later some time.

I am sorry for hurting your feelings. That was not my intention. I wanted to help you see past the law to the Savior who died on the cross with all our sins laid on Him. There is no gospel without the forgiveness of sins, and I don't want you to miss that point.

 

[Gary K]

I am sorry for hurting your feelings. That was not my intention. I wanted to help you see past the law to the Savior who died on the cross with all our sins laid on Him. There is no gospel without the forgiveness of sins, and I don't want you to miss that point.

You didn't hurt my feelings. I was afraid I would hurt yours with what I said.

Where would you get the idea that I think that. I have made it abundantly clear in everything I have ever said here that salvation is by grace. It's this that tells me you're so convinced your position is correct that anyone who disagrees with you has to not believe in the grace of God. That is what makes it impossible for you to understand my position.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

You didn't hurt my feelings. I was afraid I would hurt yours with what I said.

Where would you get the idea that I think that. I have made it abundantly clear in everything I have ever said here that salvation is by grace. It's this that tells me you're so convinced your position is correct that anyone who disagrees with you has to not believe in the grace of God. That is what makes it impossible for you to understand my position.

Maybe we have more in common than I think. I think we agree that God giving birth to us by His Spirit creates in us a "new man" that is wed to Him and is a slave of righteousness. I could be wrong, but I don't think we agree that the new man we became in Christ must live in the same physical body with the completely corrupt old man whose death we were an integral part of before Jesus gave us His life. I'm not sure we agree that all the past present and future sins and sinfulness of the flesh is completely forgiven. And I could be wrong about your position on the call to godly living, but I disagree with the notion that living out the new lives we have in Christ is a death sentence for those who do not always fulfil that calling.

 

[Gary K]

Maybe we have more in common than I think. I think we agree that God giving birth to us by His Spirit creates in us a "new man" that is wed to Him and is a slave of righteousness. I could be wrong, but I don't think we agree that the new man we became in Christ must live in the same physical body with the completely corrupt old man whose death we were an integral part of before Jesus gave us His life. I'm not sure we agree that all the past present and future sins and sinfulness of the flesh is completely forgiven. And I could be wrong about your position on the call to godly living, but I disagree with the notion that living out the new lives we have in Christ is a death sentence for those who do not always fulfil that calling.

We don't disagree on a single belief you listed. The only possible things I can think of might be Judas where we can grieve away the HS and thus lose our salvation, and the seventh day Sabbath.

One of my favorite preachers was an Irish guy by the name of James Macconnell who was an Episcopalian minister at the Belfast. Ireland Whitewell Memorial Tabernacle. He taught righteousness by faith as well as any SDA minister I've ever heard. God used him to take a small membership church in a rented room of 10 people and before he retired that church had grown to a church of 3500 people of whom the vast majority really loved the Lord. Their enthusiasm for God comes through in their congregational singing. Here is a sample video of it. This is probably my favorite video and two of my favorite hymns they sing. I think you'll see why.

 

[Lost4words]

Paul didnt set us free. Jesus did..