From what law did Paul set us free?

[Gary K]

Yes. As it is written,

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 4:23-24 - New Living Translation

And when God counted him as righteous, it wasn’t just for Abraham’s benefit. It was recorded for our benefit, too, assuring us that God will also count us as righteous if we believe in him, the one who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

www.biblegateway.com

That is not what I meant. If God asked you right now to kill one of your kids could you do it?

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I hear what you're saying. My sense is that we believe that God raised Jesus from the dead

I agree, but I don't think Gary wasn't referring to that. Well, no sooner does he confirm it. He thinks obedience to God's commands is an act of faith.

 

[Gary K]

I agree, but I don't think Gary wasn't referring to that. Well, no sooner does he confirm it. He thinks obedience to God's commands is an act of faith.

You hit that nail on the head the very first time.

 

[All Becomes New]

The Law of sin and death.

Next question, please.

 

[Leaf473]

That is not what I meant. If God asked you right now to kill one of your kids could you do it?

Yes, if I were sure it was God.

Which brings up a great question,
Would God ask us to do something that goes against the scriptures?

 

[Leaf473]

I agree, but I don't think Gary wasn't referring to that. Well, no sooner does he confirm it. He thinks obedience to God's commands is an act of faith.

You hit that nail on the head the very first time.

Well, yes, obeying God is an act of faith.

But when Abraham was declared righteous, the thing he is believing is a prophecy, not a command.

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 15:5-6 - New Living Translation

Then the LORD took Abram outside and said to him, “Look up into the sky and count the stars if you can. That’s how many descendants you will have!” And Abram believed the LORD, and the LORD counted him as righteous because of his faith.

www.biblegateway.com

So, two different things going on in this subject imo:

Abraham is declared righteous because he believes what God told him about the future.

Some of the Israelites are performing an act of faith when they stay in their place on the sixth day instead of going out to look for manna.

A key difference: the Israelites who remain in their place aren't declared righteous for doing that.
_______________
Edit: "stay in their place on the sixth day" should be seventh day.

 

[Leaf473]

Maybe "demonstration of faith" would be closer to what I mean than "act of faith"

The famous passage in James talks about "show me your faith". Demonstrate it to me.

Bible Gateway passage: James 2:18 - New Living Translation

Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.”

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Gary K]

Well, yes, obeying God is an act of faith.

But when Abraham was declared righteous, the thing he is believing is a prophecy, not a command.

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 15:5-6 - New Living Translation

Then the LORD took Abram outside and said to him, “Look up into the sky and count the stars if you can. That’s how many descendants you will have!” And Abram believed the LORD, and the LORD counted him as righteous because of his faith.

www.biblegateway.com

So, two different things going on in this subject imo:

Abraham is declared righteous because he believes what God told him about the future.

Some of the Israelites are performing an act of faith when they stay in their place on the sixth day instead of going out to look for manna.

A key difference: the Israelites who remain in their place aren't declared righteous for doing that.

Where do you get that idea? It certainly isn't found in scripture? Why would anyone be declared righteous for not doing what God didn't forbid.

You expressed a very strange belief right there.

 

[Leaf473]

Where do you get that idea? It certainly isn't found in scripture?

Why would anyone be declared righteous for not doing what God didn't forbid.

Are you talking about the Israelites not going out to look for manna on the 7th day?

You expressed a very strange belief right there.

 

[Leaf473]

Where do you get that idea? It certainly isn't found in scripture? Why would anyone be declared righteous for not doing what God didn't forbid.

You expressed a very strange belief right there.

Are you talking about the Israelites not going out to look for manna on the 7th day?

I see what happened, I meant to say seventh day in post 306

 

[Gary K]

I see what happened, I meant to say seventh day in post 306

I figured you did but didn't feel I had the right to not accept your words at face value.

I find the way you read scripture to be really odd.

Exo 16:27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.
Exo 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
Exo 16:29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.
Exo 16:30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

Exo 31:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Exo 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

 

[Leaf473]

I figured you did but didn't feel I had the right to not accept your words at face value.

I find the way you read scripture to be really odd.

Well, we were talking about Abraham being counted as righteous. Was he counted as righteous when he believed what God said about the future?

Were the Israelites who stayed in their tents on the seventh day counted as righteous?

 

[Gary K]

Well, we were talking about Abraham being counted as righteous. Was he counted as righteous when he believed what God said about the future?

Were the Israelites who stayed in their tents on the seventh day counted as righteous?

Why do you think God gave Abraham such a severe test? Abraham had failed morally twice. He lied about Sarah being his wife rather than trusting God, anf he had taken Hagar as his wife rather than trusting God's word on making of him a great nation. Two major moral failures.

Yes. Why? Because God is the one who sanctifies us.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Well, yes, obeying God is an act of faith.

So, two different things going on in this subject imo:

Abraham is declared righteous because he believes what God told him about the future.

Some of the Israelites are performing an act of faith when they stay in their place on the sixth day instead of going out to look for manna.

A key difference: the Israelites who remain in their place aren't declared righteous for doing that.

Bingo! No one is declared righteous on the basis of his obedience to God unless he is obedient 100% of the time. Are angels righteous? Not the fallen ones. But yes, the obedient ones never sinned even one time, so they are righteous on the basis of their obedience. What about us? Both Testaments say, "There is none righteous, no, not one". So our path to righteousness through obedience is cut off, just as is true for the fallen angels. Why are we not all going to Hell then? One simple answer: Jesus paid the price for our sins and offers reconciliation in exchange for our trust in Him. Now, after being reconciled with God, thinking (or claiming, or pretending, or acting as if, or preaching) that we righteous because of our obedience is... I can't write what I'm thinking because it is too harsh. Just go read Galatians and focus on the "turning so soon from Him", "bewithched", "fallen from grace", "under the curse", and "cut themselves off" parts.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Which brings up a great question,
Would God ask us to do something that goes against the scriptures?

Did Abraham say to God, "Child sacrifice is an abomination to the Lord"?

 

[Gary K]

Did Abraham say to God, "Child sacrifice is an abomination to the Lord"?

Excellent answer. I would not have thought of that.

 

[Leaf473]

Why do you think God gave Abraham such a severe test?

So Abraham could demonstrate his faith

Abraham had failed morally twice. He lied about Sarah being his wife rather than trusting God, anf he had taken Hagar as his wife rather than trusting God's word on making of him a great nation. Two major moral failures.

Yes. Why? Because God is the one who sanctifies us.

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 4:6 - New Living Translation

David also spoke of this when he described the happiness of those who are declared righteous without working for it:

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Leaf473]

Did Abraham say to God, "Child sacrifice is an abomination to the Lord"?

No, he doesn't say that.

Then again, it doesn't look like Abraham had written communications from God.

 

[Gary K]

So Abraham could demonstrate his faith

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 4:6 - New Living Translation

David also spoke of this when he described the happiness of those who are declared righteous without working for it:

www.biblegateway.com

I can't disagree with that.

 

[Gary K]

No, he doesn't say that.

Then again, it doesn't look like Abraham had written communications from God.

So even though God spoke face to face with Abraham you don't think he knew what God's commands are?

Gen 18:17 And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
Gen 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.