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Freewill?
- Thread starter hairettic
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I'm sure that's probably not the first time that analogy has be use for us, if you get my drift.We're like coackroaches crawling out from everywhere
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Evergreen48
Senior Member
marty, because it is told what God didn't have in his mind concerning burning children as a sacrifice to baal does not explain or tell what God does have in mind for the 5 year old who dies before he is old enough to be accountable to God for his actions. (though I believe in my heart that no pain or harm will come to that child) But the point was that the Bible does not say what God's mind is concerning this particular thing.
Your answer to this was:
So, that is why I think you do not know what you are talking about.martymonster said:
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Hello,
Deadly serious, I believe that the second death is an eternal death, eternal separation from God (Rev 20:6,13-15) Not eternal torture. (PS, I am a sister, not a brother lol)
Well, I am not part of any "freewill group" as such, and I do not believe that God brings about punishment just because He gave us freewill.
What I do believe is that we reap what we sow, if we use the talents God has given us for evil, then that is what we will reap and if we use them for good, then that too is what we will reap. God isn't some tyrant sitting up there on His throne waiting to punish those who are disobedient. God is like a loving Father, chastising and teaching His children to fashion them after His own character and the character of His Son. However, if they persist in their disobedience to the point that they will not be reproved, and repent, the consequences are that God will eventually leave them to their own devices. That is when Satan steps in and destroys them, and uses those disobedient children to influence others too.
Yes, we are in bondage to sin, and yes, even though we might want to do those good things ourselves, we know we can't, it is through the strength of Christ alone that we can become conquerors.
It is obvious though, that we still have the will to actually want to do those things, we want to go against our natural carnal flesh, which is saying otherwise, and want to choose to follow the way of good, but can't in our own strength, but, in our great insufficiency we can reach out to Christ and He will give us the strength to put action to those wants. We choose to respond to the drawing process of God, even though our whole being is saying otherwise, we want to have our hearts of stone changed to hearts of flesh, God doesn't do this without our wanting to have it done.
"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." Rom 8:7-8
We are told to "seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness....." not to let God drag us to Him because we cannot freely decide for ourselves to "seek" for Him.
Part of God drawing us to Him, gives us the opportunity to make a moral judgement, to taste and see that the Lord is good. We are not compelled against our will, or forced to search for God and see His goodness, He reveals it to us as we continue to search for Him. We are free at any moment to stop searching, and to cease building our side of the relationship with God.
Satan went to present himself to the Lord, scripture tells us what he does that for:
"....for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night" Rev 12:10
Satan was there accusing the brethren, then God says:
"Hast though considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in all the earth, a perfect and upright man, one that feareth God and escheweth evil?" Job 1:8
Satan then states in a round about way that the reason Job fears the Lord is because God has protected him on all sides, and has blessed him greatly. Satan tells God to take away all he has and Job will then curse God.
God then allows, not causes Satan to take away all that belongs to Job, but tells him that he is not to touch his person. If God had not stopped Satan from touching Job, Satan would have totally destroyed him.
The lesson is, God did NOT cause that destruction, it was only when His protection was removed that Satan was permitted to cause any destruction to Job. Yes, God did not interpose, Job was sorely afflicted, and his friends sought to make him acknowledge that his suffering was the result of sin, and cause him to feel under condemnation. They represented his case as that of a great sinner; but the Lord rebuked them for their judgement of Job.
I do not agree with their mentality.
Not for a moment, because when Jesus comes a second time, His reward is with Him, to give every man according as his work shall be. Rev 22:12 Plus, why would God wait until the judgement to remove mans sins when He can do that now?
"And ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free" John 8:32
If Christ had not made atonement for mankind, after the fall Satan would have forever held them under the bondage of sin. However, since Jesus has come to set us free, freewill has been restored to mankind again, and we are free from the bondage of sin we are able to willfully through Christ keep the perfect law of liberty.
God Bless,
Harlin
Deadly serious, I believe that the second death is an eternal death, eternal separation from God (Rev 20:6,13-15) Not eternal torture. (PS, I am a sister, not a brother lol)
Well, I am not part of any "freewill group" as such, and I do not believe that God brings about punishment just because He gave us freewill.
What I do believe is that we reap what we sow, if we use the talents God has given us for evil, then that is what we will reap and if we use them for good, then that too is what we will reap. God isn't some tyrant sitting up there on His throne waiting to punish those who are disobedient. God is like a loving Father, chastising and teaching His children to fashion them after His own character and the character of His Son. However, if they persist in their disobedience to the point that they will not be reproved, and repent, the consequences are that God will eventually leave them to their own devices. That is when Satan steps in and destroys them, and uses those disobedient children to influence others too.
Yes, we are in bondage to sin, and yes, even though we might want to do those good things ourselves, we know we can't, it is through the strength of Christ alone that we can become conquerors.
It is obvious though, that we still have the will to actually want to do those things, we want to go against our natural carnal flesh, which is saying otherwise, and want to choose to follow the way of good, but can't in our own strength, but, in our great insufficiency we can reach out to Christ and He will give us the strength to put action to those wants. We choose to respond to the drawing process of God, even though our whole being is saying otherwise, we want to have our hearts of stone changed to hearts of flesh, God doesn't do this without our wanting to have it done.
"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." Rom 8:7-8
We are told to "seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness....." not to let God drag us to Him because we cannot freely decide for ourselves to "seek" for Him.
Part of God drawing us to Him, gives us the opportunity to make a moral judgement, to taste and see that the Lord is good. We are not compelled against our will, or forced to search for God and see His goodness, He reveals it to us as we continue to search for Him. We are free at any moment to stop searching, and to cease building our side of the relationship with God.
Satan went to present himself to the Lord, scripture tells us what he does that for:
"....for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night" Rev 12:10
Satan was there accusing the brethren, then God says:
"Hast though considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in all the earth, a perfect and upright man, one that feareth God and escheweth evil?" Job 1:8
Satan then states in a round about way that the reason Job fears the Lord is because God has protected him on all sides, and has blessed him greatly. Satan tells God to take away all he has and Job will then curse God.
God then allows, not causes Satan to take away all that belongs to Job, but tells him that he is not to touch his person. If God had not stopped Satan from touching Job, Satan would have totally destroyed him.
The lesson is, God did NOT cause that destruction, it was only when His protection was removed that Satan was permitted to cause any destruction to Job. Yes, God did not interpose, Job was sorely afflicted, and his friends sought to make him acknowledge that his suffering was the result of sin, and cause him to feel under condemnation. They represented his case as that of a great sinner; but the Lord rebuked them for their judgement of Job.
I do not agree with their mentality.
Not for a moment, because when Jesus comes a second time, His reward is with Him, to give every man according as his work shall be. Rev 22:12 Plus, why would God wait until the judgement to remove mans sins when He can do that now?
"And ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free" John 8:32
If Christ had not made atonement for mankind, after the fall Satan would have forever held them under the bondage of sin. However, since Jesus has come to set us free, freewill has been restored to mankind again, and we are free from the bondage of sin we are able to willfully through Christ keep the perfect law of liberty.
God Bless,
Harlin
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Evergreen48
Senior Member
2Thessalonians 1: 7. "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,martymonster said:
8. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9. Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; . . ."
Your turn.
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That does not mean away form His presence, but in fact that it is from His presence the destruction comes.
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Originally Posted by martymonster
Pray for Him that his eyes may be opened!
well look at it this way Elman, if God opened your eyes to see UR would it not be against your will?
Pray for Him that his eyes may be opened!
well look at it this way Elman, if God opened your eyes to see UR would it not be against your will?
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Evergreen48
Senior Member
Pneuma
Good grief! Take a look at some other versions of that scripture.
-- Darby's Bible
2 Thessalonians 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,
-- Weymouth's New Testament
2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, being banished from the presence of the Lord and from His glorious majesty,
-- Webster's Bible
2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
-- International Standard Version
2 Thessalonians 1:9 Such people will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction by being separated from the Lord's presence and from his glorious power
-- William's NewTestament
2 Thessalonians 1:9 These will receive the punishment of eternal destruction as exiles from the presence of the Lord and His glorious might,
-- Montgomery New Testament
2 Thessalonians 1:9 They shall suffer punishment, even an eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the brightness of his glorious majesty,
How is it that you seem to set yourself above these learned ones with your own reading of that scripture?
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Soul Searcher
The kingdom is within
1: Rev 14:10 Indicates "in the presence of"
2: It is not possible to be seperated from an omnipresence.
2: It is not possible to be seperated from an omnipresence.
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With God things are possible that are impossibe with man. God is able to give us limited life. I think that is what He did when He created us as mortals. He is also able to give us unlimited life, and that is what I hope He will do for those who love Him.
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Originally Posted by martymonster
Pray for Him that his eyes may be opened!
So you think God forces us to be loving to each other?
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Evergreen48
Senior Member
All things are possible with God. He is not limited or hindered in any way. If He chooses to withdraw His presence from a person or a place, then He is no longer there. Or, if one is totally destroyed - body and soul- (see Matthew 10:28 ) - there would be nothing there to entertain His presense.
Nothing can be proven concerning this subject, (or any other subject for that matter) by anything written in the book of Revelation. It is all symbolic, and not to be taken literally.
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Soul Searcher
The kingdom is within
All things that are possible are possible with God. It is not however possible to exist outside the presence of something that is ever present. This is like creating a square circle, can not be done.
Now if they are as some of you belief utterly wiped out of existance then they would no longer be in his presence as they would not exist at all but to say this means eternal seperation is far from accurate.
Now if they are as some of you belief utterly wiped out of existance then they would no longer be in his presence as they would not exist at all but to say this means eternal seperation is far from accurate.
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It would be accurate if they are left in their state on non existence. I think however God is able to be whereever He wants to be and He is also able to not be somewhere if He wishes to not be there.
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Soul Searcher
The kingdom is within
The problem is the statement "To be left in thier state of non existance" in nonsense. Something that does not exist does not exist it is not a state of being, it is not being over there rather than over here. It is non existance. Once something no longer exists it does not exist.
If it is true that God is omni present then he is everywhere at all times. Nothing that exists could be outside his presence.
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Evergreen48
Senior Member
Soul Searcher said:
(KJV) - Matthew 19:26. But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
(SSV) - Matthew 19:26 But Jesus beheld them and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things that are possible are possible to Him.
(KJV) - Mark 14: 36. And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
(SSV) - And He said, Abba, Father, all things that are possible , are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
And BTW, God could create a square circle if He chose to do so.
Soul Searcher said:
I really don't think that if something's existence is dependent on God, and it became non existant, for whatever the reason, it would be that inaccurate to say that it became separated from God.
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Soul Searcher
The kingdom is within
EG.. The scriptures that you have posted in context are talking about who then can be saved. The meaning is that all men can be saved not that God can make square circles.
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