Freemasonry

[LastSeven]

Who seeks wisdom from a serpent?

Fair enough. It was obviously a bit of a premature inference on her part. Although the fact that you believe the serpent even represents wisdom is anti-biblical in itself.

As you know the serpent in the garden offered Adam and Eve wisdom via the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which means that since the beginning of time, the serpent, especially one representing wisdom has been associated with evil. So to honour a "serpent of wisdom" the way the masons have by carving its image into the headquarters building, at the very least will raise a few eyebrows and at worst is a public display of where Freemasonry's true loyalties lie.

Don't get me wrong. I am not accusing you personally. Your personal loyalties clearly do not lie with the serpent in the garden, as you have stated your Christian faith, but to deny that there is a hint of Luciferianism in Freemasonry is really shortsighted, and dangerous, on your part. I believe you're fooling yourself, or allowing yourself to be fooled.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could leave it at that?

And why can't we?

The reason I started this thread was to have an honest discussion with Freemasons. I hope to hear first hand what Freemasons believe and don't believe. Most of us who are familiar with Freemasonry have learned what we know from books, which is not first hand information. I did promise to keep it civil, as we all should, but I do have more questions.

 

[americanvet]

Albert Pike quote:

"That which we must say to the world is that we worship a god, but it is the god that one adores without superstition. To you, Sovereign Grand Inspectors General, we say this, that you may repeat it to the brethren of the 32nd, 31st and 30th degrees: The masonic Religion should be, by all of us initiates of the higher degrees, maintained in the Purity of the Luciferian doctrine. If Lucifer were not God, would Adonay and his priests calumniate him?

Yes, Lucifer is God, and unfortunately Adonay is also god. For the eternal law is that there is no light without shade, no beauty without ugliness, no white without black, for the absolute can only exist as two gods; darkness being necessary for light to serve as its foil as the pedestal is necessary to the statue, and the brake to the locomotive….

Thus, the doctrine of Satanism is a heresy, and the true and pure philosophical religion is the belief in Lucifer, the equal of Adonay; but Lucifer, God of Light and God of Good, is struggling for humanity against Adonay, the God of Darkness and Evil."

The Pope & The Pornographer - Leo Taxil

 

[Defensor Christi]

The Pope & The Pornographer - Leo Taxil

Good find!

 

[Albion]

Fair enough. It was obviously a bit of a premature inference on her part. Although the fact that you believe the serpent even represents wisdom is anti-biblical in itself.

That's one opinion.

As you know the serpent in the garden offered Adam and Eve wisdom via the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which means that since the beginning of time, the serpent, especially one representing wisdom has been associated with evil.

Among other things. By the way, this is all about what she saw in some picture. The serpent has virtually no place in Masonic imagery. Actually, none that I know of other than this mention concerning the Shriners, which most Masons do not belong to.

So to honour a "serpent of wisdom" the way the masons have by carving its image into the headquarters building, at the very least will raise a few eyebrows and at worst is a public display of where Freemasonry's true loyalties lie.

As I said, there's no known place of honour involved, but I'll accept the idea that this emblem might be used along with dozens of others in a building that is supposed to look like an Egyptian temple. It's very Egyptian, isn't it?

Don't get me wrong. I am not accusing you personally. Your personal loyalties clearly do not lie with the serpent in the garden, as you have stated your Christian faith, but to deny that there is a hint of Luciferianism in Freemasonry is really shortsighted, and dangerous,

That's just silly, to put it politely. It's really slander, if you want to know the truth, and you are repeating information that you have no way of verifying. Better to follow the Command not to bear false witness if you are unsure, don't you think?

The reason I started this thread was to have an honest discussion with Freemasons. I hope to hear first hand what Freemasons believe and don't believe.

you've already decided, haven't you? You said you aren't buying anything you've been hearing that doesn't jibe with these scurrilous lies you've been reading somewhere. You aren't a Mason yourself, so it's an elementary truth that you do not know personally what you are claiming.

Most of us who are familiar with Freemasonry have learned what we know from books, which is not first hand information. I did promise to keep it civil, as we all should, but I do have more questions.

Go ahead. Every Mason on CF has offered to answer anything asked, and from all that I've seen, that's been done. But at the same time calling Masons Luciferian is hard to square with a claim of wanting to be civil. Imagine if someone said that the Rotary or a labor union or the Country Club that you belong to is secretly Luciferian?

 

[LastSeven]

So the literature that Masons are given that emphasizes all these things I've mentioned is just a lie? Is that your contention?

It's a distinct possibility.

And "Forefathers." Let's talk about Masonry as it is, please. Speculation about what was in the mind of someone a thousand years ago is worth little. Catholics don't have to defend the Spanish Inquisition at every turn and Republicans don't have to explain U. S. Grant at every turn, so why are Masons supposed to defend something said by a single Masonic writer from long ago?

Right. Although it's interesting that you mention Catholics as I believe they are in much the same boat as you. Well intentioned people who do not understand the roots of their institution. And that is where I think the real problems lie. The roots.

If you were the big kahoona with full dictatorial authority in charge of Freemasonry would you have approved the carving of a giant serpent into the front of the headquarters building? I don't think you would have, but correct me if I'm wrong.

If you answer is no, then that's part of the point I'm trying to make. You may be a perfectly innocent Christian involved in Freemasonry, but those who are in charge of Freemasonry at the very top do not share your beliefs. They believe things that would shock you. Nevertheless it's interesting to get your perspective from the inside.

You've heard it and said you aren't buying it.

Right. So let's leave that part alone for now.

I mean that Manly P. Hall spoke for Manly P. Hall. There is nothing official about his writings, nor did he have absolute answers anyway, since no one, friend or foe, knows what the origins of Masonry are.

I suspected you would say that. Just as Harold Camping does not speak for Christianity, Manly P Hall does not speak for Freemasonry. Fair enough.

Doesn't it bother you though that a guy like him, as well as Aleister Crowley, Albert Pike, Madame Blavatsky and others have had such a great influence on your institution? And that masons with great power such as Presidents and generals and bankers follow their teachings? Doesn't it make you wonder how many masons do actually believe and cherish what they taught?

Masonry doesn't have dangerous beliefs. Nice try, though.

Isn't it true that the name Jesus Christ is forbidden to be spoken in a Masonic Lodge?

 

[Albion]

It's a distinct possibility.

Well, then, you say you are interested in a discussion, but you begin by concluding that nothing you are told is true. What kind of an invitation to a discussion is that?

Right. Although it's interesting that you mention Catholics as I believe they are in much the same boat as you. Well intentioned people who do not understand the roots of their institution. And that is where I think the real problems lie. The roots.

All right. Let's switch it to the founders of your denomination or some other association. The point is the same.

If you were the big kahoona with full dictatorial authority in charge of Freemasonry

There ISN'T any big kahoona with any powers, let alone "doctatorial" authority. Does that disappoint you? There is no international headquarters or leadership, not even a national headquarters and leaders. Each state has it's own organization governed by elected officials and a Constitution and annual convention of delegates, just like a political party or most other social organizations.

would you have approved the carving of a giant serpent into the front of the headquarters building? I don't think you would have, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Probably not because I personally am creeped out by snakes, but I don't see the point.

Doesn't it bother you though that a guy like him, as well as Aleister Crowley, Albert Pike, Madame Blavatsky and others have had such a great influence on your institution?

They haven't had particular influence on Masonry, but they sure excite the conspiracy theorists, don't they? Meanwhile, you could have mentioned Norman Vincent Peale, the Archbishop of Canterbury, George Washington, Gerald R. Ford, Harry S Truman and Henry Ford.

Isn't it true that the name Jesus Christ is forbidden to be spoken in a Masonic Lodge?

Absolutely untrue.

 

[LastSeven]

As I said, there's no known place of honour involved, but I'll accept the idea that this emblem might be used along with dozens of others in a building that is supposed to look like an Egyptian temple. It's very Egyptian, isn't it?

The ties between freemasonry and ancient Egypt alone should send up a red flag for any Christian considering Freemasonry.

That's just silly, to put it politely. It's really slander, if you want to know the truth, and you are repeating information that you have no way of verifying. Better to follow the Command not to bear false witness if you are unsure, don't you think?

Books written by high level Freemasons as well as art work commissioned and created by Freemasons all tell the story. So when I say there is a hint of Luciferianism in Freemasonry that is not slander. That is verified.

Don't take it personally. We've already established the disconnect between masons such as yourself and the dangerous masons that I've been talking about, but answer me the following question:

If one of the elders at your church wrote a book that stated his ultimate goal of eradicating Christianity and openly promoted the institution of Lucifer worship and you had reason to believe that other high ranking members of your church had similar beliefs, would you not leave that church?

Isn't the Bible full of warnings about associating with evil doers?

 

[americanvet]

The ties between freemasonry and ancient Egypt alone should send up a red flag for any Christian considering Freemasonry.



Books written by high level Freemasons as well as art work commissioned and created by Freemasons all tell the story. So when I say there is a hint of Luciferianism in Freemasonry that is not slander. That is verified.

Don't take it personally. We've already established the disconnect between masons such as yourself and the dangerous masons that I've been talking about, but answer me the following question:

If one of the elders at your church wrote a book that stated his ultimate goal of eradicating Christianity and openly promoted the institution of Lucifer worship and you had reason to believe that other high ranking members of your church had similar beliefs, would you not leave that church?

Isn't the Bible full of warnings about associating with evil doers?

The Pope & The Pornographer - Leo Taxil

The entire Lucifer worship idea was a hoax. A disservice done to the RCC and to Masonry, by a greedy man.

 

[Albion]

The ties between freemasonry and ancient Egypt alone should send up a red flag for any Christian considering Freemasonry.

Well, there aren't any actual ties, and Masonry doesn't claim to have any historic connection to the ancient Egyptyians. There is a lot of talk about Solomon, David, the Israelites, and other Bible figures, however, many of whom figure prominently in Masonic ritual.

Books written by high level Freemasons as well as art work commissioned and created by Freemasons all tell the story. So when I say there is a hint of Luciferianism in Freemasonry that is not slander. That is verified.

Other than one building you have seen pictures of, it's been verified that that literature is a forgery. And the forger is known. The only reference to Lucifer that I am aware of is one mistranslation, and in any case, it's just that person's thought about light. Nothing that relates to Masonry itself. Meanwhile, I can show you some hair-raising comments made by prominent Christian preachers. Are you or your church responsible for them?? You consider yourself to be a Christian, don't you?

We've already established the disconnect between masons such as yourself and the dangerous masons that I've been talking about, but answer me the following question:

I appreciate not being called names, but we've certainly not established the names or nature of anyone that I'd agree are dangerous. LOL

If one of the elders at your church wrote a book that stated his ultimate goal of eradicating Christianity and openly promoted the institution of Lucifer worship and you had reason to believe that other high ranking members of your church had similar beliefs, would you not leave that church?

Yes, I would. But none of that has happened in Masonry.

Isn't the Bible full of warnings about associating with evil doers?

Yes.

 

[LastSeven]

There ISN'T any big kahoona with any powers, let alone "doctatorial" authority. Does that disappoint you? There is no international headquarters or leadership, not even a national headquarters and leaders. Each state has it's own organization governed by elected officials and a Constitution and annual convention of delegates, just like a political party or most other social organizations.

Probably not because I personally am creeped out by snakes, but I don't see the point.

Yes, I realize there is no one big kahoona. The point is, the people who are making big important decisions for Freemasonry are doing things that you as a Christian would not do. You would stay away from the snake carvings, not because you're creeped out by them, but because you don't see the point in having them. Yet the leadership in Washington DC thought the snake was important enough to give him a place of honour.

Again, use the church analogy. If your church paid thousands of dollars for a giant snake carving above its main entrance wouldn't that cause you to at least think twice about this church?

Look here's another example of Freemasons honouring the serpent.

This is a picture of the elevator inside the Washington monument. The Washington monument as you know is an obelisk which is representative of the Egyptian god Osiris. This monument was dedicated to George Washington and its construction began exactly 72 years after independence. (Remember 72 is the number of fallen angels, and the number of stars that surround the painting The Apotheosis of George Washington).

Notice the two snakes above the elevator, forming a prominent element of the ancient Egyptian winged disc which is the symbol for the Egyptian god Thoth who was the god of wisdom.

The fact that ancient Egyptian gods are being honoured in Masonic architecture, does that not make you question?

 

[Albion]

Yes, I realize there is no one big kahoona. The point is, the people who are making big important decisions for Freemasonry are doing things that you as a Christian would not do.

So you say, but I haven't seen any of that.

You would stay away from the snake carvings, not because you're creeped out by them, but because you don't see the point in having them.

That's not what I said.

Yet the leadership in Washington DC thought the snake was important enough to give him a place of honour.

What "place of honour?" It's one little part of a Egyptian-look building, and you have no idea what you mean by "leadership."

Look here's another example of Freemasons honouring the serpent.

This is a picture of the elevator inside the Washington monument. The Washington monument as you know is an obelisk which is representative of the Egyptian god Osiris. This monument was dedicated to George Washington and its construction began exactly 72 years after independence. (Remember 72 is the number of fallen angels, and the number of stars that surround the painting The Apotheosis of George Washington).

Masons didn't build the Washington Monument, nor was the architect a Mason!!

The fact that ancient Egyptian gods are being honoured in Masonic architecture, does that not make you question?

This is a NATIONAL monument! It is not a Masonic creation, possession, or design.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Are you claiming Masonry is a thousand years old?
I looked on wikipedia and the UGLE one built in 1717 in Great Britan claims to be the oldest Grand Lodge in the world, deriving its origin from 1717.

There is just not one Masonic lodge in the world older than that one, so why would you claim Freemasonry began a thousand years ago?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

 

[LastSeven]

Albion, I think your defensive posture is keeping you from objectively assessing the facts. The signs of Masonry are all over the Washington Monument, and in fact the entire city of Washington DC.

 

[LastSeven]

That's not what I said.

Oh come on. Don't pretend you would adorn your building with snakes if you weren't creeped out by them. No Christian in his right mind would do that, whether snakes are creepy or not.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

So you say, but I haven't seen any of that.


That's not what I said.


What "place of honour?" It's one little part of a Egyptian-look building, and you have no idea what you mean by "leadership."


Masons didn't build the Washington Monument, nor was the architect a Mason!!


This is a NATIONAL monument! It is not a Masonic creation, possession, or design.

Why do you say that? It is not true.
Freemasons are proud that the Washington Monument was designed by a Freemason.
From Masonic Charities: Saving History

[FONT=arial, Arial, Helvetica]

Washington Monument​

For American Freemasons, one such example is their involvement with the building as well as the current refurbishing of the U.S. Washington Monument (not to be confused with the George Washington Masonic National Memorial).​

Authorized by Congress in 1833, construction was not begun until 1848. Architect Robert Mills (a Mason) was hired by the privately funded Washington National Monument Society to design a great column with a colonnade at its base. It was intended that the colonnade would have heroic statues of Washington and other revolutionary heroes and founding fathers. Financial considerations forced the abandonment of the colonnade and statues.​

[/FONT]

 

[LastSeven]

you have no idea what you mean by "leadership."

What do you mean? Do masons not have leadership?

 

[Albion]

Oh come on. Don't pretend you would adorn your building with snakes if you weren't creeped out by them. No Christian in his right mind would do that, whether snakes are creepy or not.

I disagree. If I were copying an ancient Egyptian temple look, I might well, just as I'd probably use a rifle if I were a Civil War re-enactor. I realize that the snake and most other animals have stood for many different ideas in art and literature, and that's all there is to this. Why don't you move onto something else if you want to learn about Masonry instead of talk about snakes all the time? BTW, Masons also use the beehive, plumb bobs, gavels, stones, the Christian cross, candles, grain, and stairs, among other emblems. Are they Satanic, too?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Originally Posted by Albion

...
Masons didn't build the Washington Monument, nor was the architect a Mason!!


This is a NATIONAL monument! It is not a Masonic creation, possession, or design.
​

Why do you say that? It is not true.
Freemasons are proud that the Washington Monument was designed by a Freemason.
From Masonic Charities: Saving History

Authorized by Congress in 1833, construction was not begun until 1848. Architect Robert Mills (a Mason) was hired by the privately funded Washington National Monument Society to design a great column with a colonnade at its base. It was intended that the colonnade would have heroic statues of Washington and other revolutionary heroes and founding fathers. Financial considerations forced the abandonment of the colonnade and statues.

Wikipedia.orghttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Washington_Monument

Excavation for the foundation of the Monument began in early 1848.[25] The cornerstone was laid as part of an elaborate Fourth of July ceremony hosted by the Freemasons, an organization to which Washington belonged. Speeches that day showed the country continued to revere Washington. ..

 

[Albion]

What do you mean? Do masons not have leadership?

You said the "leadership" designed that building. Whom did you have in mind?

 

[Albion]

Wikipedia.orghttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Washington_Monument

President Washington was invited to dedicate the laying of the cornerstone. Masons did not build the monument, own it, or have any other part in the project as we know it. Mills design was not used.