Cross or Crucifix

[ViaCrucis]

Did you take exception with my showing the cross was used over 100 years before the crucifix?

Fundamentally this would boil down to whether if the time difference is being used as part of a value judgment. Does this bit of information exist merely as trivia, or does it serve to point toward something else?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

We agree

Did you take exception with my showing the cross was used over 100 years before the crucifix?

Does it matter?
"Mine is earlier than yours" sounds a bit like "my car is faster than yours" or "my (boat or what ever) is bigger than yours".

During the period before Christianity was legitimized, Christians were operating on the "down-low". Overt iconography would have drawn attention to, and been very dangerous. The Tau Cross, fish, Greek Cross, Alpha and Omega, anchor etc. all predate the "Roman Cross". All of these are still in use today; bottom line is that much of Protestantism shies away from the Crucifix because it shows the ultimate effect of the law, and they miss the pure Gospel that is depicted, that Jesus Christ put Himself in my place, and suffered rejection and agony for me.

 

[Always in His Presence]

The timeline was in response to the post saying the crucifix was used before the “Protestants’ stripped it etc.

That statement was factually incorrect as shown.

 

[concretecamper]

This post didn't ring true to me, so I crossed referenced a few sources. Turns out, the below claim is false.

First Century depictions in the Greek catacombs were simple crosses known as Staurogram

Yes, early Christian depictions, particularly the staurogram (a tau-rho ligature, combining Greek 'T' and 'P'), served as simple crosses, representing Jesus on the cross in manuscripts and art from the 2nd-4th centuries, predating more complex crucifixions and signifying the crucifixion itself, showing early Christian reverence for the cross as a core symbol.


The statement is partially accurate but contains some inaccuracies regarding timing and location. The staurogram (⳨ or ) is indeed an early Christian symbol combining the Greek letters tau (Τ) and rho (Ρ). It forms a monogram that abbreviates words like "stauros" (cross) or "stauroō" (to crucify). When superimposed, it creates a looped cross shape that scholars interpret as a pictorial representation of a crucified figure (the tau as the crossbeam and upright, the rho loop as a head). This makes it one of the earliest visual references to the crucifixion of Jesus, appearing in New Testament manuscripts like Papyrus 66, 75, and 45 from around 175–225 CE.


Yes, the staurogram (ΤΡ), formed from Greek Tau (Τ) and Rho (Ρ), was an early Christian symbol, appearing in 2nd-century manuscripts as an abbreviation for stauros (cross) and visually representing Jesus on the cross, predating explicit crucifixion images and appearing in catacomb-era art, though often alongside other symbols like the fish and Good Shepherd, becoming prominent by the 4th century in sarcophagi and inscriptions.

 

[peter2]

Fundamentally this would boil down to whether if the time difference is being used as part of a value judgment. Does this bit of information exist merely as trivia, or does it serve to point toward something else?

Good question !
Another would be, for me : Would they be able to ascertain a hypothetic anteriority of the practices, will it prove something as for which kind of worshipping does please to God ?
May be God 'd rather one form more than another, i can't know that.

But since "Always in His Presence" was just looking for our choices, i'd tell him i choose to believe what matters most (and may be what only matters) when worshipping is in my heart, and not out, on a cross or a crucifix. I hope, yet, not to be wrong

 

[DragonFox91]

As a Protestant, I believe the free cross shows Jesus has risen. I believe it communicates he is not there anymore & we are free. I don't think the idea of lifting him up high seemingly defeated when he's at the right hand of the throne of God is right.

But I feel like Jesus on the cross can be okay too. I feel like it can be forgotten in Protestant teachings, our sin is nailed to it, & we are crucified w/ him. We can't forget the problem of our sin remains. So I think it's okay sometimes

I like this question, it's a good one

 

[prodromos]

If there weren't issues with posting images at the moment, I would post an Eastern Orthodox icon of the crucifix. While it depicts Christ crucified, it does so in a way that teaches a great deal of theology.

• While Christ is dead, He is not hanging limply from the cross, rather He is standing on the cross, showing that death as no power over Him.
• His expression is peaceful, not in agony, as He has completed what He set out to do
• He is depicted with a divine halo rather than the crown of thorns, showing His divinity is ever united with His humanity

 

[peter2]

As a Protestant, (..). I don't think the idea of lifting him up high seemingly defeated when he's at the right hand of the throne of God is right.
(..)
I like this question, it's a good one

I think what lies in your heart is the more important. Yet i also wonder why you think so. Didn't Gabriel speak of him as a contradictive sign for the nations ?
Doesn't his seeming defeat also display a real victory over sin, first ? and over death, yes.. (sorry, you already answered this)

 

[peter2]

If there weren't issues with posting images at the moment, I would post an Eastern Orthodox icon of the crucifix. While it depicts Christ crucified, it does so in a way that teaches a great deal of theology.

• While Christ is dead, He is not hanging limply from the cross, rather He is standing on the cross, showing that death as no power over Him.
• His expression is peaceful, not in agony, as He has completed what He set out to do
• He is depicted with a divine halo rather than the crown of thorns, showing His divinity is ever united with His humanity

Hello Promodos,

It' s interesting.
Our catholic Nicene creed speaks of the "invisible universe", as created by God, a universe that i've often been questionning about.

Now, the icon you speak of also displays invisible things, or realities.. As catholic, i 'd then say : why not ?

 

[Always in His Presence]

if they ever fix the forum, I will post pictures showing the first century crosses

 

[ViaCrucis]

I don't think the idea of lifting him up high seemingly defeated when he's at the right hand of the throne of God is right.

That is an interesting perspective.

I'm reminded of a statement by St. Augustine of Hippo: Victor quia Victima. Victor, because a Victim. It highlights the paradox of the Cross: It is Christ in the shame and weakness of His suffering where there is a victory going on.

It is the Lamb of God slain from before the foundation of the world who has conquered the world.

I have many times heard some Christians say, "Jesus was a lamb the first time He came, but when He returns He is a lion". Though I have to highlight that we consistently come across lamb language in the Revelation. The One who is seated on the Throne is the Lamb, it is the Lamb who is worthy to open the scroll, it is the Lamb who conquers. The Lamb, the Victim, the Crucified Victim of Mt. Calvary is the Reigning and Victorious Christ--for He rose and ascended and will come again. But it's not "Jesus was a lamb, but now He's a lion" it's that the Lamb conquers; the Lamb has teeth like a lion because He is a glorified Lamb--but He remains a Lamb.

We don't serve a kingdom of power, strength, and glory--but a kingdom of mercy, weakness, and the cross. God's kingdom is cross-shaped; it's shaped like the Crucified Christ. It is the Crucified Christ who is Lord over all things. By drawing us into the Mystery of His suffering we aren't neglecting His authority as King Messiah; it's that we are beholding God who demonstrates in what way He reigns--not as a caesar seated in a palace, but as the bloodied and crucified Carpenter from Nazareth. This is who God is. The Crucified is King of kings. When He rose He showed Himself, bearing still the wounds of His Passion.

 

[Always in His Presence]

400 years before the Crucifix

There was the Cross of my beloved Savior

 

[concretecamper]

400 years before the Crucifix

View attachment 374730

There was the Cross of my beloved Savior

So 175 BC? You're kidding, right?

This makes it one of the earliest visual references to the crucifixion of Jesus, appearing in New Testament manuscripts like Papyrus 66, 75, and 45 from around 175–225 CE.

 

[concretecamper]

Research yields:

This is an ancient Christian tombstone inscription in Greek. The word "ΕΙΡΗΝΗ" means "peace" and is a common farewell or blessing on early Christian graves (often implying "peace be with you" or "in peace"). The "+" is a cross, a typical Christian symbol. The upper text "ΠΟΥΦΟΙΝΑ Α ΠΟΥΦΟΙΝΑ" likely represents a name, such as "Puph oina daughter of Puphoina" (with "Α" indicating "daughter of" in abbreviated form), or possibly a variant or transcription error for "ΡΟΥΦΟΙΝΑ Α ΡΟΥΦΟΙΝΑ" ("Rufina daughter of Rufina"), as Rufina is a frequent name in ancient Greek and Roman inscriptions from the early Christian era (roughly 2nd-5th centuries AD). Such inscriptions are often found in catacombs or cemeteries in regions like North Africa, Sicily, or Asia Minor, where Greek was used in Christian communities.

So, not 400 years prior to the Crucifix. I've never met someone who fails fact checking as much as you.

 

[Always in His Presence]

The first known public depictions of the Crucifix emerged in the 5th century:

• An ivory panel from the Maskell Passion Ivories (British Museum, ca. 420–430 AD) shows a narrative crucifixion scene.
• The wooden doors of the Basilica of Santa Sabina in Rome (ca. 430–432 AD) include a relief panel widely regarded as the earliest public portrayal of Jesus crucified (flanked by the two thieves, with arms outstretched and no signs of suffering).

So 175 BC? You're kidding, right?

you need a new calculator

 

[concretecamper]

you need a new calculator

No, I just post facts. If they don't agree with what you post, check your sources.

 

[Always in His Presence]

No, I just post facts. If they don't agree with what you post, check your sources.

ditto