Freemasonry. Separating myth from fiction.

[Skip Sampson]

Let's say I have questions about Christianity. Should I seek my answers from an ex-Christian?

If you want to know all sides of the question, yes. I've learned quite a bit from talking to non-Christians. Cordially, Skip.

 

[Skip Sampson]

One Masonic site you were kicked off of was do to your inability to follow their rules.

And which site might that be? And what was their stated reason? Cordially, Skip.

 

[circuitrider]

Let's say I have questions about Christianity. Should I seek my answers from an ex-Christian?

Probably not morningstar. I'd probably also not ask people who have never been Christians but got all their information from ex-Christians. That is where many anti-masons get their information. Most anti-masons have not been Masons so they get info either from a few disgruntled ex-Masons or from conspiracy theorists who talk about black helicopters and world domination.

If you read Anti-Masonry: Points of View you'll find that it is estimated that Mr. Washum and and Mr. Sampson have only a handful of followers. The two make a lot of noise where they can. But they aren't getting many takers.

Also Freemasonry is seeing a resurgence of younger members and revitalization of lodges despite the handful of conspiracists and anti-masonic internet trollers. Most younger Masons are well educated and know a lot about Freemasonry before they join. They've read the anti-masonic stuff, done the research on it and laughed it off for the falsehood it is and are immune to to their further arguments.

 

[Albion]

In addition, Mr. Washum's objection to Masonry is purely personal. He doesn't think that any Christian can in good conscience listen to an invocation, such as all manner of civic organizations use, while in the company of members of other religions or denominations...or if that invocation does not use the name of Jesus.

Yes, Masonry is an organization that allows men of different denominations and (some) different religions to belong. If that cuts against one's own conscience, then don't belong. I might add that I see no reason to call all Christians who are Masons and don't happen to agree with that reasoning by a term like "anti-Christian."

To me, this situation does not pose an impediment to membership in a Masonic lodge, and I'm backed up in that by my own church, which has seen many members in leadership positions in Masonry.

 

[circuitrider]

In addition, Mr. Washum's objection to Masonry is purely personal. He doesn't think that any Christian can in good conscience listen to an invocation, such as all manner of civic organizations use, while in the company of members of other religions or denominations...or if that invocation does not use the name of Jesus.

Yes, and his view is not a very common view among Christians. The Lord's Prayer, Jesus example prayer to us, does not end "in Jesus' name."

I often end a prayer in church "in Jesus name" but I feel no requirement to do so nor do I always end prayer that way. There is no Bible passage which requires it and no orthodox Christian doctrine that does either.

If on lodge night the Master was to ask all Methodists to get up leave from my lodge he would no longer have a quorum.

 

[Simpleman25]

And which site might that be? And what was their stated reason? Cordially, Skip.

Armchair, really? Is your memory failing you.

If this is all about some self righteous indignation, I'll pass.

 

[circuitrider]

I don't suppose there is some way to have a thread here for persons who want to ask Masons questions without our two anti-masonic gadflies seeking to derail the discussion?

 

[Simpleman25]

I don't suppose there is some way to have a thread here for persons who want to ask Masons questions without our two anti-masonic gadflies seeking to derail the discussion?

In a word, no. I sent a private message requesting that they follow the request of the OP and refrain from commenting. You see how well that did.

I even told him to start his own thread and that we would stay out of it. A gentleman's agreement if you will. Unfortunately they have shown they are not gentleman. Not something that should shock any of us that know of them.

 

[duane washum]

In addition, Mr. Washum's objection to Masonry is purely personal. He doesn't think that any Christian can in good conscience listen to an invocation, such as all manner of civic organizations use, while in the company of members of other religions or denominations...or if that invocation does not use the name of Jesus

.
Not totally true. Prayers in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit work for me.

Yes, Masonry is an organization that allows men of different denominations and (some) different religions to belong.

Care to elaborate on "some"? Also, you might run that past Simple. He claims that anybody who is not a Christian is not allowed in his lodge.

To me, this situation does not pose an impediment to membership in a Masonic lodge, and I'm backed up in that by my own church, which has seen many members in leadership positions in Masonry.

I do admit that the church itself is very much to blame for the allowing of Masons to be members of their congregations without first renouncing Freemasonry. How does your church feel about having Mormons, Muslims, etc as members of its congregation?

 

[duane washum]

Yes, and his view is not a very common view among Christians. The Lord's Prayer, Jesus example prayer to us, does not end "in Jesus' name."

Uh, maybe that's because it begins with "Our Father"?

I often end a prayer in church "in Jesus name" but I feel no requirement to do so nor do I always end prayer that way. There is no Bible passage which requires it and no orthodox Christian doctrine that does either.

How about a requirement to NOT pray in the name of Jesus Christ?

[/quote]If on lodge night the Master was to ask all Methodists to get up leave from my lodge he would no longer have a quorum. [/quote]

On the other hand, if a UMC pastor makes known his opposition to Freemasonry, what do you suppose would happen to him?

 

[Albion]

Care to elaborate on "some"? Also, you might run that past Simple. He claims that anybody who is not a Christian is not allowed in his lodge.

Yes. As you know, monotheists who are NOT Christians are eligible for membership, although most Masons are Christians and the themes of Masonry very Christian. But it's equally true that people who cannot say that of their religious belief system are not eligible. Ergo, "some." I don't remember what Simpleman wrote about this.

I do admit that the church itself is very much to blame for the allowing of Masons to be members of their congregations without first renouncing Freemasonry. How does your church feel about having Mormons, Muslims, etc as members of its congregation?

Freemasonry is not my church.

 

[Simpleman25]

Care to elaborate on "some"? Also, you might run that past Simple. He claims that anybody who is not a Christian is not allowed in his lodge.



What it goes to prove is that this concept that every lodge follows every rule set forth in GL documentation. It's just not an accurate account of masonry. Strawman himself has admitted to rules not being enforced in his own lodge.

My home lodge has always been a Christian only lodge. The good men that started this lodge felt they were not breaking any rules. The rule states that we CAN admit those of other faiths. It does not state that we have to.

If armchair had ever applied all of his knowledge he would have known this.

 

[morningstar2651]

If you want to know all sides of the question, yes. I've learned quite a bit from talking to non-Christians. Cordially, Skip.

Given this statement, do you believe that including non-Christians makes masonry anti-Christian?

 

[duane washum]

Here are a couple of interesting statements from the website of the Grand Lodge of Oklahoma:

No atheist can be a Mason. Masons do not care what your individual faith is -- that is a question between you and your God -- but we do require that a that a man believe in a Supreme Being.

Sounds like it is saying that if a person claiming to be a Mason cares what another individual's faith is, he isn't really a Mason.

Masonry insists on toleration -- on the right of each person to think for himself in religious, social and political matters.

Unless, of course, a persons lodge doesn't WANT to be tolerant??

 

[duane washum]

Yes. As you know, monotheists who are NOT Christians are eligible for membership, although most Masons are Christians and the themes of Masonry very Christian. But it's equally true that people who cannot say that of their religious belief system are not eligible. Ergo, "some." I don't remember what Simpleman wrote about this.

Freemasonry is not my church.

Non-responsive.

 

[Simpleman25]

Here are a couple of interesting statements from the website of the Grand Lodge of Oklahoma:



Sounds like it is saying that if a person claiming to be a Mason cares what another individual's faith is, he isn't really a Mason.



Unless, of course, a persons lodge doesn't WANT to be tolerant??

Just when I think I've seen it all.

So basically your complaints against masonry have to do with the exclusion of Jesus. So I come in and disprove your theory. You then come back and agree with masonry.

Pick a side strawman!

That's one of the biggest issues I have with you emfj cultist. You can't have it both ways!

 

[circuitrider]

Just when I think I've seen it all.

So basically your complaints against masonry have to do with the exclusion of Jesus. So I come in and disprove your theory. You then come back and agree with masonry.

Pick a side strawman!

That's one of the biggest issues I have with you emfj cultist. You can't have it both ways!

I actually don't know what the faith is of many men in my lodge because we don't ask that. We ask he the person believes in God. If the answer is yes that is where the questions stop. The ones do know I know because they've told me or because they attend the church I pastor.

 

[duane washum]

Just when I think I've seen it all.

So basically your complaints against masonry have to do with the exclusion of Jesus. So I come in and disprove your theory. You then come back and agree with masonry.

Pick a side strawman!

That's one of the biggest issues I have with you emfj cultist. You can't have it both ways!

Not taking both sides of the issue, simply pointing out the hypocrisy of your own position regarding the inclusion of heathens in Freemasonry. I think your compression problem has resurfaced.

Thought I saw something on a forum somewhere, indicating that you are a pastor. Is that correct?

 

[Simpleman25]

Not taking both sides of the issue, simply pointing out the hypocrisy of your own position regarding the inclusion of heathens in Freemasonry. I think your compression problem has resurfaced.

Thought I saw something on a forum somewhere, indicating that you are a pastor. Is that correct?

No I am not a pastor. Although a number of family members heard the calling, I never did. To listen to my uncle in particular, one would know if God chose them to speak the gospel. At 74 he can tell you everything about the day he was called to the pulpit.

My comprehension is just fine. What I can't comprehend is how you can't choose a side.

Yes, one of us is a pastor. Just isn't me.

 

[circuitrider]

No I am not a pastor. Although a number of family members heard the calling, I never did. To listen to my uncle in particular, one would know if God chose them to speak the gospel. At 74 he can tell you everything about the day he was called to the pulpit.

My comprehension is just fine. What I can't comprehend is how you can't choose a side.

Yes, one of us is a pastor. Just isn't me.

At least in my case the calling is very distinct and undeniable. So I'd have to agree with your uncle.