Freemasonry and Christianity

[Albion]

sorry for late response


“That which we must say to the world is that we worship a god, but it is the god that one adores without superstition. To you, Sovereign Grand Inspectors General, we say this, that you may repeat it to the brethren of the 32nd, 31st and 30th degrees: The masonic Religion should be, by all of us initiates of the higher degrees, maintained in the Purity of the Luciferian doctrine. If Lucifer were not God, would Adonay and his priests calumniate him?”
Albert Pike

(Sigh) If we've read that forgery once we've read it a hundred times, always from someone who thinks this little snippet explains everything.

If you want to pursue it, or be educated about this matter, I'd welcome your thread on the Conspiracy Theories forum to which all discussions of Masonry have been assigned by the Moderators.

 

[jaybird88]

(Sigh) If we've read that forgery once we've read it a hundred times, always from someone who thinks this little snippet explains everything.

If you want to pursue it, or be educated about this matter, I'd welcome your thread on the Conspiracy Theories forum to which all discussions of Masonry have been assigned by the Moderators.

so any and every quote by pike relating to luciferianism is a forgery? lol um ok and all the masons that jumped on the bandwagon to thow him under the bus and distance themselves from him did it because of all the forgeries? see how that makes littltle to no sense.

 

[Albion]

so any and every quote by pike relating to luciferianism is a forgery?

How many did you have in mind. The one your quoted to us is the one that is always quoted.

um ok and all the masons that jumped on the bandwagon to thow him under the bus and distance themselves from him did it because of all the forgeries? see how that makes littltle to no sense.

I don't know what you're talking about there. I just don't know of any "throwing under the bus" going on. However, if you have other quotes that you want to present, of course you can do that and let us see what you have in mind--preferably on the correct forum.

 

[jaybird88]

How many did you have in mind. The one your quoted to us is the one that is always quoted.


I don't know what you're talking about there. I just don't know of any "throwing under the bus" going on. However, if you have other quotes that you want to present, of course you can do that and let us see what you have in mind--preferably on the correct forum.

i apologize for posting in the wrong forum, i thought this topic was about Christianity and freemasonry???

pike wrote lots of things about Lucifer, most masons agree he wrote the stuff but it was his own views and had nothing to do with mason thought. strange no others would share his beliefs when he was one of the biggest masons ever.
ben franklin was a big mason and member of the hellfire club, a luciferian meeting place.He was leader of the seven sisters lodge in france. seven sisters is far from Christian thought.
a statue was made of George Washington with him posing as zeus, its in the Smithsonian today, then theres the painting of Washington in the DC capital, Apotheosis of Washington or George Washington becoming a god. the painting has George and all those greek/roman gods, the ones our bible says dont worship!
these are not quotes you can blow off as hoaxes, you can drive to these places and actually put your hands on them and see them.
these things do not fit with the Christian ways we are told our country is founded on. few thnk about these things, except the washington statue, they actually tried to display it in a high traffic DC area and the people threw a fit cause it creeped them out so they had to move it in the Smithsonian. guess those people needed to be educated.

 

[Albion]

i apologize for posting in the wrong forum, i thought this topic was about Christianity and freemasonry???

The thread is misplaced. That isn't your fault. However, I hoped that since you seemed to want to reignite the criticisms of Freemasonry you would do it the assigned forum. I confess that I'm kind of a crank about discussions being in the forums appropriate for their subject matter, no matter what the topic.

 

[Rev Wayne]

sorry for late response


“That which we must say to the world is that we worship a god, but it is the god that one adores without superstition. To you, Sovereign Grand Inspectors General, we say this, that you may repeat it to the brethren of the 32nd, 31st and 30th degrees: The masonic Religion should be, by all of us initiates of the higher degrees, maintained in the Purity of the Luciferian doctrine. If Lucifer were not God, would Adonay and his priests calumniate him?”
Albert Pike

I thought you were talking about Pike's writings, not Leo Taxil's. What you just quoted has long ago been debunked, I can't believe people are still susceptible to this garbage. This one is famous, known as the Taxil Hoax, perpetrated by Leo Taxil in the 1880's, and thereafter admitted by the author of it to be a hoax.

Unfortunately, the critics of Masonry are a persistent bunch, and when one falsehood gets exposed, they have a way of inventing ten more to take the place of each one shot down. I see you've already engaged in this further with Albion. I have no reservations about responding to as much as you care to discuss, but I'd prefer one at a time rather than respond to your throwing the whole gamut of accusations at once with the assumption that something is bound to stick.

For starters, do you have anything of substance regarding Pike? 90% of what I've seen in accusations regarding Pike was totally made up, the remainder of it simply rendered from the imaginations of those who didn't understand what they thought they read in Pike to begin with.

A good response to the one you posted can be found here: The Leo Taxil Hoax | Masonic Dictionary | www.masonicdictionary.com

 

[jaybird88]

I thought you were talking about Pike's writings, not Leo Taxil's. What you just quoted has long ago been debunked, I can't believe people are still susceptible to this garbage. This one is famous, known as the Taxil Hoax, perpetrated by Leo Taxil in the 1880's, and thereafter admitted by the author of it to be a hoax.
For starters, do you have anything of substance regarding Pike? 90% of what I've seen in accusations regarding Pike was totally made up, the remainder of it simply rendered from the imaginations of those who didn't understand what they thought they read in Pike to begin with.

"Yes, lucifer is god, and unfortunately Adonay is also God, for the eternal law is that there is no light without shade, no beauty without ugliness, no white without black, for the absolute can only exist as two gods. darkness being necessary for light to serve as its foil, as the pedestal is necessary to the statue, and the brake to the locomotive."

if all of these quotes are a conspiracy against albert pike what is the motive? did these conspiracy groups put the upside down stars, pyrimids and eye of horuses everywhere?

 

[Albion]

"Yes, lucifer is god, and unfortunately Adonay is also God, for the eternal law is that there is no light without shade, no beauty without ugliness, no white without black, for the absolute can only exist as two gods. darkness being necessary for light to serve as its foil, as the pedestal is necessary to the statue, and the brake to the locomotive."

if all of these quotes are a conspiracy against albert pike what is the motive

You were referred to the career of Leo Taxil. Why not read about it before thinking up other possible explanations?

 

[Rev Wayne]

"Yes, lucifer is god, and unfortunately Adonay is also God, for the eternal law is that there is no light without shade, no beauty without ugliness, no white without black, for the absolute can only exist as two gods. darkness being necessary for light to serve as its foil, as the pedestal is necessary to the statue, and the brake to the locomotive."

if all of these quotes are a conspiracy against albert pike what is the motive? did these conspiracy groups put the upside down stars, pyrimids and eye of horuses everywhere?

"ALL of these quotes?" Where do you come from with that comment. You cited ONE quote, not several, and the one quote you DID cite, apparently you got it from "conspiracy groups" and NOT from Albert Pike.

Why don't you do this for me: if you are so certain that what you quoted came from Albert Pike, why not locate the source, provide me a title of the Pike work from which it originates, including page number, and a link if it's an online source, so I can see it for myself? That way I can rejoice with you that you have discovered what no one else knows, that the Taxil Hoax, which has been so well documented, was actually not a hoax. The fact is, you CAN'T cite a Pike writing from which this came, because it did NOT.

Sounds like you believe everything you read, which is never a good proposition. As for the rest of your comments, the pentagram was a Christian symbol before it was ever perverted and used as anything satanic. It was representative of the five wounds of Christ, and in its upside-down form, has even been described as symbolic of the incarnation, of Christ coming down to earth, thus pointing downward. The pyramid was never a Masonic symbol. And the "all-seeing eye" has been used by a number of groups, including Christianity, to symbolize the fact that God is ever watchful over all His creation.

Ultimately, no symbol is locked into any one air-tight interpretation. It means what it means to the beholder, and it is only because some people see no good in something that it becomes an accusational focal point.

 

[Archivist]

How many of the people on here who are attacking the Masons would refuse to send their child to a Shriner's Hospital for care?

 

[jaybird88]

"ALL of these quotes?" Where do you come from with that comment. You cited ONE quote, not several, and the one quote you DID cite, apparently you got it from "conspiracy groups" and NOT from Albert Pike.

Why don't you do this for me: if you are so certain that what you quoted came from Albert Pike, why not locate the source, provide me a title of the Pike work from which it originates, including page number, and a link if it's an online source, so I can see it for myself? That way I can rejoice with you that you have discovered what no one else knows, that the Taxil Hoax, which has been so well documented, was actually not a hoax. The fact is, you CAN'T cite a Pike writing from which this came, because it did NOT.

i thought i posted 2 quotes.
pike lived in arkansas and i am from arkansas and there are way to many odd stories about the man for every single one of them to be fake stories. if they are all fake crazy talk conspiracy theories then what in the world did this guy do to get so many people coming after him with fake stories.

Sounds like you believe everything you read, which is never a good proposition. As for the rest of your comments, the pentagram was a Christian symbol before it was ever perverted and used as anything satanic. It was representative of the five wounds of Christ, and in its upside-down form, has even been described as symbolic of the incarnation, of Christ coming down to earth, thus pointing downward. The pyramid was never a Masonic symbol. And the "all-seeing eye" has been used by a number of groups, including Christianity, to symbolize the fact that God is ever watchful over all His creation.

no i question everything that does not add up. we are told our country is founded on Christian values yet all the symbolism is greek/roman pagen. and people are ok with this, no one seems to question it. i dont get it.
the masons say they haad nothing to do with the statue of semiramis, egyptian obilisk, owl and pentagram in the DC street plan, yet i thought the masons were the "builders". so what other builders would have the influence to make these things happen?
strange that satanist would take a cross and invert it, yet take the "Christian" pentagram and not change it.
when egypt fell into its dark occult is when the all seeing eye starts popping up as well as egypt inverting everything which was their way of copying the heavens here on earth which scripture says not to do.
you also have the all seeing eye in native american belief systems. anazazi, aztec and inca (not 100% sure on inca) but the eye is almost nowhere to be found in north america tribes. the north american tribes, most but not all, believed in one creator, and for the most part pretty peacefull, the others believed in conquest, adult and child sacrifice. their systems of belief was very similar to Phoenician / canaanite beliefs.

 

[MJFlores]

Idk the best place to put this, but here I go.

What is your thoughts on Freemasonry?

I have a relative who is a Freemason and I considered joining after he told me what they do. After some exploration into their beliefs and how many Chrisrians are against it, I'm now reconsidering.

They do not show preference towards any religion and accept all as truth. I can see why this would concern Christians, but it seems that the Freemasons are trying to avoid showing favor towards any religion and respecting all equally.

I guess this is only an issue when you consider the verse "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers."

I've read that they have their own plan for salvation, but Idk how true or accurate that is.

Imo, I think one can be a Christian and a Freemason, but there are definitely things one should be careful about.

Also, just about every organization, even churches has believers mixed in with unbelievers.

They are just like an exclusive organization like
the Lion's Club
the Rotary Club

It is a fraternity - in simplest of terms

Well if a person likes to join, it is really up to him.
I won't on my case, because I have a different belief compared to you guys.
But if you are civic minded and like to donate - well this is a frat
and you should expect activities like that.

I could sometimes see their stickers at the back of their car

they have buildings where they hold meetings
Frat club for businessmen, I should say.

The Catholic Church once banned them because
Some of them are revolutionaries
Even films sometimes depict them as evil men
All are just work of imaginative zealots

But to me - they are just frat men.

 

[Archivist]

I would not join the Masons because many Masonic lodges are segregated. Otherwise I have nothing against the organization.

It is worth noting that a great many famous Americans were Masons including George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Andrew Jackson, William McKinley, Theodore Roosevelt and Harry Truman.

 

[Albion]

i thought i posted 2 quotes.
pike lived in arkansas and i am from arkansas and there are way to many odd stories about the man for every single one of them to be fake stories. if they are all fake crazy talk conspiracy theories then what in the world did this guy do to get so many people coming after him with fake stories.

...for the very reason that you're here on this thread. It's more about Masonry than Pike. But you are willing to believe a lie about Masonry because you are persuaded, wrongly, that if Pike wrote X then it must be what every one of the millions of Masons believe or do or are expected by the fraternity to believe or do.

no i question everything that does not add up. we are told our country is founded on Christian values yet all the symbolism is greek/roman pagen. and people are ok with this, no one seems to question it.

Just a minute there. Our country was founded during a period of time when what's called neo-Classicism or Classical Revival in art and architecture was in vogue. And the reason it was in vogue is because we were seeking freedom from a tyrannical monarchy. We, therefore, admired those free men, democrats and republicans from the Classical Age, i.e. the Greeks and Romans, that Western Civilization in general admired.

We patterned almost everything that was visual on them and their style, including almost all the great buildings in Washington that tourists still visit, the manner of dress and grooming, political structure, terminology, and much more. It's all around you, but you want to think an emblem here or there is uniquely Masonic when this style is all around us as Americans and for a very sensible reason, if you only knew.

masons say they had nothing to do with the statue of semiramis, egyptian obilisk, owl and pentagram in the DC street plan, yet i thought the masons were the "builders". so what other builders would have the influence to make these things happen?

Freemasons are Masons only to the extent that they continue, in ceremonial form, some of the ideals of the builders of history and their professional associations or guilds. You do not think, I hope, that Freemasons are actual bricklayers or sculptors, either today or during our country's early years?? If it is the case that you DO think that, however, I have to wonder what you think the members of the Elks and Moose lodges actually are??

 

[jaybird88]

...for the very reason that you're here on this thread. It's more about Masonry than Pike. But you are willing to believe a lie about Masonry because you are persuaded, wrongly, that if Pike wrote X then it must be what every one of the millions of Masons believe or do or are expected by the fraternity to believe or do.


Just a minute there. Our country was founded during a period of time when what's called neo-Classicism or Classical Revival in art and architecture was in vogue. And the reason it was in vogue is because we were seeking freedom from a tyrannical monarchy. We, therefore, admired those free men, democrats and republicans from the Classical Age, i.e. the Greeks and Romans, that Western Civilization in general admired.

We patterned almost everything that was visual on them and their style, including almost all the great buildings in Washington that tourists still visit, the manner of dress and grooming, political structure, terminology, and much more. It's all around you, but you want to think an emblem here or there is uniquely Masonic when this style is all around us as Americans and for a very sensible reason, if you only knew.

Freemasons are Masons only to the extent that they continue, in ceremonial form, some of the ideals of the builders of history and their professional associations or guilds. You do not think, I hope, that Freemasons are actual bricklayers or sculptors, either today or during our country's early years?? If it is the case that you DO think that, however, I have to wonder what you think the members of the Elks and Moose lodges actually are??

pike was a mason, he was one of the most influential powerful masons of the last few hundred years. it would only make sense that many look to him as a leader.

strange that at the common man level there is no pagan god influence, death of Socrates is a very famous painting in this style and again no pagan gods. guess the leaders of our country had no interest unless it had some pagan gods thrown in there.

so masons have nothing to do with building? the fact they call themselves masons and builders are just names picked randomly out of a hat? the folklore of hiram and the connection to Solomons temple is just a coincidence?
there were some other builders mentioned in the bible, they built the tower of babel, made war on the Most High and brought down divine judgment on themselves. i always wondered what happened to those guys, but im sure no one like that would cause trouble today.

 

[Albion]

pike was a mason, he was one of the most influential powerful masons of the last few hundred years. it would only make sense that many look to him as a leader.

That would have been true a hundred years ago. No one but the conspiracy theorists seems to make anything big of him these days, especially outside of Arkansas. Even so, the quote you offered us was a forgery, so we're not really dealing with Pike anyway!

so masons have nothing to do with building? the fact they call themselves masons and builders are just names picked randomly out of a hat?

C'mon now. I'm sure you know that that isn't the case. Freemasons call themselves "Speculative Masons" as opposed to "Operative Masons" -- those who built the cathedrals and other great structures of another era. Think of this as similar to Civil War re-enactors that you probably have some knowledge of. They are not warring against anyone, but they do want to perpetuate a certain spirit of patriotism and dedication to duty, etc., don't they?

Those Masons are famous in many ways, and it's that commitment to excellence and idealism, as well as the knowledge of mathematics, geometry, and physics that made possible their beautiful and durable work which makes them and their work be admired even today.

the folklore of hiram and the connection to Solomons temple is just a coincidence?

Not a coincidence, but it's not as though Freemasons gather to construct any monuments with their own hands, either.

 

[jaybird88]

That would have been true a hundred years ago. No one but the conspiracy theorists seems to make anything big of him these days, especially outside of Arkansas. Even so, the quote you offered us was a forgery, so we're not really dealing with Pike anyway!

we dont have giant statues of him here in arkansas, you have to go to washington DC to find those.

 

[Rev Wayne]

"if they are all fake crazy talk conspiracy theories then what in the world did this guy do to get so many people coming after him with fake stories. "

He joined the Masons. For some reason, that seems to go with the territory for some people.

 

[Rev Wayne]

"i thought i posted 2 quotes."


Okay, let me check:


“That which we must say to the world is that we worship a god, but it is the god that one adores without superstition. To you, Sovereign Grand Inspectors General, we say this, that you may repeat it to the brethren of the 32nd, 31st and 30th degrees: The masonic Religion should be, by all of us initiates of the higher degrees, maintained in the Purity of the Luciferian doctrine. If Lucifer were not God, would Adonay and his priests calumniate him?”
Albert Pike


"Yes, lucifer is god, and unfortunately Adonay is also God, for the eternal law is that there is no light without shade, no beauty without ugliness, no white without black, for the absolute can only exist as two gods. darkness being necessary for light to serve as its foil, as the pedestal is necessary to the statue, and the brake to the locomotive."


Okay, there were two. So your claim of “all these quotes” must have been referring to all two of them. But in reality, it’s no different which one you “quoted,” since neither of them constitutes an actual quote of Pike. Two quotes, one source, and neither one true.


Don’t get me wrong, I’m not defending Pike, and I’m not a member of any Pike Fan Club. I’m speaking up for Masonry in defense against the false use of Pike by so many accusers who try to vilify Masonry falsely with totally fabricated claims based either on (a) the Taxil Hoax or (b) misunderstanding what they (think they) read in Pike.


So far your comments fit the (a) category, since the Taxil Hoax is the source of your “quotes” and not Pike himself. I seriously doubt you’ve ever even read anything by Pike that didn’t come pre-packaged by some conspiratorial webpage.


If you wish to continue any discussion of Pike, please provide something actually written by Pike, cite the source, tell us why you have a problem with it, and maybe we can go from there.

 

[mcg1102]

The problem being is that in trying to not put any religion above others, you must then end up denying the fact that only through Jesus is one saved. As a Freemason, you can never say test. In other words, eventually, you must deny that Jesus is the way the truth and the life and that He alone died for our sins. Are you willing to do that?? Even if everything else they did would be great and very humanitarian, are you willing to deny Christ to be with them? Or would you end up hearing these words:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

As a former Mason, I must agree with you to a certain extent. The key issue in the Christian case against Freemasonry is that it teaches that the gods of all religions are essentially one in the same, just having different names. So in the Masonic Lodge, they satisfy those different names, for all Masons regardless of their faith, with one name the "Great Architect of the Universe" or GAOTU.

"You have learned that Freemasonry calls God, 'The Great Architect of the Universe" (G.A.O.T.U.). This is the Freemason's special name for God, because he is universal. He belongs to all men regardless of their religious persuasion. All wise men acknowledge His authority. In his private devotions a Mason will pray to Jehovah, Mohammed, Allah, Jesus or the Deity of his choice. In a Masonic Lodge, however, the Mason will find the name of his Deity within the G.A.O.T.U." - Page 6, The Craft and Its Symbols by Allen E. Roberts
​

While there are many other reasons why Freemasonry is incompatible with biblically Christianity, this syncretistic view of God is the crux of the matter. So any Mason who professes to be a Christian must ask themselves, if I truly believe solely in the God of the Bible as the one and only True Living God (agreeing with Him that all others are false gods), and that Jesus Christ is the only way to be with Him based on John 14:6, then how can I confidently remain a Mason and not feel any discomfort for being a member of a religious organization that compromises this biblical truth by teaching otherwise?

For more information on the Masonic View of God and the other irreconcilable differences in the Christian case against Freemasonry visit www.formermasons.org.