Freemason

[Jester4kicks]

We've been down this road...

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=6809429&page=18

Ok, and if we dismiss your repetitive allegations of the occult and kaballah, we find your point about the symbols and what they meant in ancient egypt.

Based on the link YOU provided: http://www.ancientnile.co.uk/symbols.php

I don't see anything in there about the occult... furthermore, as you said in your own post, the meaning of those symbols has changed over the years, especially during the time of the Roman Empire.

But, if you're going to insist that all symbols must be examined under the original context... are you going to tell me that this user on CF is studying the occult and kaballah? http://christianforums.com/member.php?u=167615 She uses the image of the lotus as her avatar, which was an egyptian symbol of rebirth... so by the same logic you are applying to masonic symbols... doesn't that make her an occultist?


...or maybe she like's the symbols meaning of rebirth as it applies to her own life...


...or maybe she just like the picture of the flower.

If you assume the worst at every possible corner, you'll certainly come to some interesting conclusions... but that doesn't make those conclusions accurate.

 

[Jester4kicks]

LOL! I've got to take a step back here! I pretty much took it for granted that the symbol of the all-seeing eye on top of the pyramid was a masonic symbol!

Turns out... it's not even masonic! The pyramid is certainly a reoccuring symbol in Freemasonry, as is the all-seeing eye... but the combination of the two was never a masonic symbol!

http://www.masonicinfo.com/eye.htm
http://www.masonicinfo.com/greatseal.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_Providence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Seal_of_the_United_States

See what happens when you make assumptions? Even I fell into the trap of defending a symbol because I assumed you were right about it being masonic!

 

[HisdaughterJen]

http://altreligion.about.com/library/texts/bl_symbolismfreemasonry.htm


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"The Symbolism of Freemasonry [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Illustrating and Explaining [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Its Science and Philosophy, its Legends, Myths, and Symbols."[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"The Freemason has no way of reaching any of the esoteric teachings of the Order except through the medium of a legend or a symbol."[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]

It is the legends (oral traditions) that instruct (as well as the symbols) which is why Freemasons often say things like, "there is no evidence" of this or that instead of confirming or denying. It is a kind of OBFUSCATION.



More from the link:

"A legend differs from an historical narrative only in this - that it is without documentary evidence of authenticity. It is the offspring solely of tradition. Its details may be true in part or in whole. There may be no internal evidence to the contrary, or there may be internal evidence that they are altogether false. But neither the possibility of truth in the one case, nor the certainty of falsehood in the other, can remove the traditional narrative from the class of legends. It is a legend simply because it rests on no written foundation. It is oral, and therefore legendary."


"In grave problems of history, such as the establishment of empires, the discovery and settlement of countries, or the rise and fall of dynasties, the knowledge of the truth or falsity of the legendary narrative will be of importance, because the value of history is impaired by the imputation of doubt. But it is not so in Freemasonry. Here there need be no absolute question of the truth or falsity of the legend. The object of the masonic legends is not to establish historical facts, but to convey philosophical doctrines. They are a method by which esoteric instruction is communicated, and the student accepts them with reference to nothing else except their positive use and meaning as developing masonic dogmas. Take, for instance, the Hiramic legend of the third degree. Of what importance is it to the disciple of Masonry whether it be true or false? All that he wants to know is its internal signification; and when he learns that it is intended to illustrate the doctrine of the immortality of the soul, he is content with that interpretation, and he does not deem it necessary, except as a matter of curious or antiquarian inquiry, to investigate its historical accuracy, or to reconcile any of its apparent contradictions. So of the lost keystone; so of the second temple; so of the hidden ark: these are to him legendary narratives, which, like the casket, would be of no value were it not for the precious jewel contained within. Each of these legends is the expression of a philosophical idea. "



But there is another method of masonic instruction, and that is by symbols. No science is more ancient than that of symbolism. At one time, nearly all the learning of the world was conveyed in symbols. And although modern philosophy now deals only in abstract propositions, Freemasonry still cleaves to the ancient method, and has preserved it in its primitive importance as a means of communicating knowledge.

​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But although there are these two modes of instruction in Freemasonry, - by legends and by symbols, - there really is no radical difference between the two methods. The symbol is a visible, and the legend an audible representation of some contrasted idea - of some moral conception produced from a comparison. Both the legend and the symbol relate to dogmas of a deep religious character; both of them convey moral sentiments in the same peculiar method, and both of them are designed by this method to illustrate the philosophy of Speculative Masonry. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]To investigate the recondite meaning of these legends and symbols, and to elicit from them the moral and philosophical lessons which they were intended to teach, is to withdraw the veil with which ignorance and indifference seek to conceal the true philosophy of Freemasonry. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]To study the symbolism of Masonry is the otily way to investigate its philosophy. This is the portal of its temple, through which alone we can gain access to the sacellum where its aporrheta are concealed. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Its philosophy is engaged in the consideration of propositions relating to God and man, to the present and the future life. Its science is the symbolism by which these propositions are presented to the mind.[/FONT] "

 

[Jester4kicks]

http://altreligion.about.com/library/texts/bl_symbolismfreemasonry.htm


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"The Symbolism of Freemasonry [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Illustrating and Explaining [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Its Science and Philosophy, its Legends, Myths, and Symbols."[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"The Freemason has no way of reaching any of the esoteric teachings of the Order except through the medium of a legend or a symbol."[/FONT]

Sorry for trimming it down, but I didn't see any reasoon to make folks scroll past it again.

I'm curious... what exactly did you intend to prove with that? Granted, you made some interesting selections with what you added emphasis to... but I didn't really see the point.

Let me see if I can sum up what you did with your emphasized points:
"Jack and Jill went up the hill
to fetch a pail of water.
Jack fell down
and broke his crown,
and Jill came tumbling after"

Do you see what I mean? The emphasized points really had no bearing on whatever possible point you were trying to make.

Anyway, to address the article as a whole... yes, Freemasonry is based on legends which convey philisophical and moral lessons (a.k.a. allegories). Symbols in Freemasonry are used to convey similar lessons. For example, the symbol of the plumb (an ancient tool used to verify an erect block was perfectly upright) is used to convey the lesson that masons should stand upright toward their fellow man and toward god. The square teaches us to square our actions, and the compass teaches us to circumscribe our desires.

I've confirmed this before... so I don't understand why you bothered posting it again.

Oh, and since you seem to like emphasizing the word "dogma", as if it were somehow sinister... I'll remind you that Webster's says the following:

Dogma (n)
1 a: something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b: a code of such tenets <pedagogical dogma> c: a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds
2: a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church

I even posted both definitions for you... even though I'm betting you'll look at the second definition and proclaim "Egads! Me thinks I have spotted another clue!!"


Oh... and since you also seem to like emphasizing the term "esoteric"....

Esoteric (adj)
1 a: designed for or understood by the specially initiated alone <a body of esoteric legal doctrine — B. N. Cardozo> b: requiring or exhibiting knowledge that is restricted to a small group <esoteric terminology>; broadly : difficult to understand <esoteric subjects>
2 a: limited to a small circle <engaging in esoteric pursuits> b: private, confidential <an esoteric purpose>3: of special, rare, or unusual interest <esoteric building materials>


See, it's easy to make things sound spooky when you spin them enough... but the "spookiness" fades quickly when you just bring it out into the open, only to discover that the truth is far more simple (and usually more boring) than you've made it out to be.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Obfuscate, Obfuscate, Obfuscate...the highlighted text proves that Freemasons learn their "esoteric/occultic knowledge" through legend and symbolism because there is plausible deniability... It's a "nothing written so nothing confirmed, after all symbols can mean anything" kind of thinking.



Then pull out a 3rd degree Masonic Tracing board, Jester, and tell us what it means.


"On the Third Degree Tracing Board, the grave probably does not refer to physical death. During the Renaissance there was much discussion about "the Fall of man" and its effect. "The Fall" seems to refer to some event by which human beings, who were at one time conscious of the Divine Presence, lost that consciousness. After "the Fall," ordinary human life, as we live it on a day-to-day basis, is "like death" when compared to human potential and to a life lived in the conscious awareness of Divine presence. The grave suggests such a "death" to be our present state. The acacia growing at the top of the grave suggests that there is a spark of life which can be encouraged to grow and refers to the possibility of regaining our original Divine connection. The view of the Temple in the center of the Third Degree Board shows "King Solomon&#8217;s Porch," the entrance to the "Holy of Holies." The veil is drawn back a little offering a glimpse into that chamber where the Deity was said to reside. This suggests that at the end of the journey from West to East some process analogous to death enables the individual to experience the Divine presence. After this process has occurred, he lives once more at his full potential. Again, I think that this refers neither to a resurrection after physical death nor to a life after physical death; both of which are the domain of religion, not Masonry. Rather, it refers to a psychological/spiritual process which can occur, if it be God&#8217;s will, within any devout individual who seeks it earnestly and which I believe it to be the business of Freemasonry to encourage. After all, we claim to be Freemasons, and this is that Truth, the knowing of which "make you free." "

http://srjarchives.tripod.com/1998-10/MACNULTY.HTM


This is the modern version of BABEL! It is an attempt to raise humanity to the level of God of their own power. The tower of Babel was not just a tall building, by the way. They thought they could unseat God.


The reason that you don't understand the significance of the things I highlighted in the previous post is that you don't believe in GOD on understand TRUTH that the Bible teaches. YOU are seeking "truth" and "spiritual illumination" by false means as a Freemason.

 

[Jester4kicks]

Obfuscate, Obfuscate, Obfuscate...the highlighted text proves that Freemasons learn their "esoteric/occultic knowledge" through legend and symbolism because there is plausible deniability... It's a "nothing written so nothing confirmed, after all symbols can mean anything" kind of thinking.

You realize that sentence made no sense, whatsoever... right? You basically said, "it proves the masons are occultic because they can deny being in a cult". You might as well say "it proves masons believe in pink pandas that live on clouds because they can deny that they believe in it".

... and yes, it sounds rediculous, because it IS rediculous.

Then pull out a 3rd degree Masonic Tracing board, Jester, and tell us what it means.

You seem to think there's only one. Like I said earlier, tracing boards were originally used as visual aides to assist in giving the various degree lectures. Since then, there have been many artistic reditions of the various degrees which generally utilize images of the working tools of that degree (such as the square, plumb, and compass) along with representations of the three key components of King Solomon's temple that are associated with each degree. The third degree tracing board also usually includes references to the legend of Hiram Abiff, usually with an image representing his death, such as a coffin.

I tried pulling up the site you linked to, but couldn't get it to load... so I'll just have to go off of what you posted. (Seriously, you're drawing your critical information from a tripod site? You might as well write a research paper on the US Court System based on references from Myspace!)

"On the Third Degree Tracing Board, the grave probably does not refer to physical death. During the Renaissance there was much discussion about "the Fall of man" and its effect. "The Fall" seems to refer to some event by which human beings, who were at one time conscious of the Divine Presence, lost that consciousness. After "the Fall," ordinary human life, as we live it on a day-to-day basis, is "like death" when compared to human potential and to a life lived in the conscious awareness of Divine presence. The grave suggests such a "death" to be our present state. The acacia growing at the top of the grave suggests that there is a spark of life which can be encouraged to grow and refers to the possibility of regaining our original Divine connection. The view of the Temple in the center of the Third Degree Board shows "King Solomon’s Porch," the entrance to the "Holy of Holies." The veil is drawn back a little offering a glimpse into that chamber where the Deity was said to reside. This suggests that at the end of the journey from West to East some process analogous to death enables the individual to experience the Divine presence. After this process has occurred, he lives once more at his full potential. Again, I think that this refers neither to a resurrection after physical death nor to a life after physical death; both of which are the domain of religion, not Masonry. Rather, it refers to a psychological/spiritual process which can occur, if it be God’s will, within any devout individual who seeks it earnestly and which I believe it to be the business of Freemasonry to encourage. After all, we claim to be Freemasons, and this is that Truth, the knowing of which "make you free." "

http://srjarchives.tripod.com/1998-10/MACNULTY.HTM


This is the modern version of BABEL! It is an attempt to raise humanity to the level of God of their own power. The tower of Babel was not just a tall building, by the way. They thought they could unseat God.

It's interesting that you highlighted one certain section, and then failed to continue reading... you might have come across the part a few sentences later that said: (emphasis of my own added)

"Again, I think that this refers neither to a resurrection after physical death nor to a life after physical death; both of which are the domain of religion, not Masonry. Rather, it refers to a psychological/spiritual process which can occur, if it be God’s will, within any devout individual who seeks it earnestly and which I believe it to be the business of Freemasonry to encourage."

To things I'd like to point out here... first, masons are not trying to "unseat god". The author even says that the process of "rebirth" that he is speaking of can only occur "if it be god's will". Secondly, the author clearly states that it's just his opinion! ("I think") Obviously he's not try to make it sound like he is the ultimate authority on the subject.

You really need to work on these citations... the stuff you used to post was on the wacky side... but at least it supported what you were trying to make people think. These citations are not only hurting your case, they're actually showing how you try to twist things to make your point.

The reason that you don't understand the significance of the things I highlighted in the previous post is that you don't believe in GOD on understand TRUTH that the Bible teaches. YOU are seeking "truth" and "spiritual illumination" by false means as a Freemason.

Where did I say I didn't believe in god? Sorry to break it to you, but I've read the bible, cover to cover, several times and I studied it for years. I was raised in a christian home, was confirmed, and served as an acolyte in the church I attended. I think I even still have the copy of the bible that I took with me to every youth convention, renewal conference, retreat, lock-in, youth group, and mission trip I attended. It's full of all sorts of little crafts I created on those trips, highlighted passages, notes in the margins and everywhere else I could fit them. (speaking of which, I really should see if I can find it... I've moved several times over the years... hope I didn't lose it)

So anyway, my point is that I'm very familiar with christianity... and I still think the stuff you emphasized is rediculous.

 

[Carey]

I love muslims and masons too.

I find masons easier to like than the Fraternal order of Police actually.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

You realize that sentence made no sense, whatsoever... right? You basically said, "it proves the masons are occultic because they can deny being in a cult". You might as well say "it proves masons believe in pink pandas that live on clouds because they can deny that they believe in it".

... and yes, it sounds rediculous, because it IS rediculous.

You seem to think there's only one. Like I said earlier, tracing boards were originally used as visual aides to assist in giving the various degree lectures. Since then, there have been many artistic reditions of the various degrees which generally utilize images of the working tools of that degree (such as the square, plumb, and compass) along with representations of the three key components of King Solomon's temple that are associated with each degree. The third degree tracing board also usually includes references to the legend of Hiram Abiff, usually with an image representing his death, such as a coffin.

I tried pulling up the site you linked to, but couldn't get it to load... so I'll just have to go off of what you posted. (Seriously, you're drawing your critical information from a tripod site? You might as well write a research paper on the US Court System based on references from Myspace!)




It's interesting that you highlighted one certain section, and then failed to continue reading... you might have come across the part a few sentences later that said: (emphasis of my own added)

"Again, I think that this refers neither to a resurrection after physical death nor to a life after physical death; both of which are the domain of religion, not Masonry. Rather, it refers to a psychological/spiritual process which can occur, if it be God&#8217;s will, within any devout individual who seeks it earnestly and which I believe it to be the business of Freemasonry to encourage."

To things I'd like to point out here... first, masons are not trying to "unseat god". The author even says that the process of "rebirth" that he is speaking of can only occur "if it be god's will". Secondly, the author clearly states that it's just his opinion! ("I think") Obviously he's not try to make it sound like he is the ultimate authority on the subject.

You really need to work on these citations... the stuff you used to post was on the wacky side... but at least it supported what you were trying to make people think. These citations are not only hurting your case, they're actually showing how you try to twist things to make your point.




Where did I say I didn't believe in god? Sorry to break it to you, but I've read the bible, cover to cover, several times and I studied it for years. I was raised in a christian home, was confirmed, and served as an acolyte in the church I attended. I think I even still have the copy of the bible that I took with me to every youth convention, renewal conference, retreat, lock-in, youth group, and mission trip I attended. It's full of all sorts of little crafts I created on those trips, highlighted passages, notes in the margins and everywhere else I could fit them. (speaking of which, I really should see if I can find it... I've moved several times over the years... hope I didn't lose it)

So anyway, my point is that I'm very familiar with christianity... and I still think the stuff you emphasized is rediculous.

Definitions of obfuscate on the Web:

• [SIZE=-1]
• make obscure or unclear [/SIZE]
  [SIZE=-1]wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn[/SIZE]
  [SIZE=-1]
• Obfuscation is the concealment of meaning in communication, making it confusing and harder to interpret. [/SIZE]
  [SIZE=-1]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obfuscate[/SIZE]
  [SIZE=-1]
• To make dark; overshadow; To deliberately make more confusing in order to conceal the truth; To alter code while preserving its behavior but conceal its structure and intent [/SIZE]
  [SIZE=-1]en.wiktionary.org/wiki/obfuscate[/SIZE]

Instead of laying the facts on the table, you continue to obfuscate.

And, you did indeed say that you don't believe in God! I'll locate it and post it...hold on...

Here's one...from your post #95 on this thread.

Furthermore, I'm not a christian (gasp!),

Here's another one...

I'll keep my comments about your god to myself... you can thank freemasonry for that. As for my understanding of your god's "word"... you don't know my background any better than I know yours.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=6809429&page=25


So, if you are admittedly NOT Christian, and refer to God as "your god", then you aren't Jewish because we serve the same God, but you might be muslim or hindu or an agnostic. You can't be an atheist because you have to believe in a god in order to be a Freemason.

 

[Jester4kicks]

Instead of laying the facts on the table, you continue to obfuscate.

Where? Where have I not been clear? If you need me to be more clear, just ask a clarifying question. Ok, maybe you're not good at that... let me give you an example and you can work from there:

Q: Teacher, why is the sky blue?
A: Because of how light gets filtered through our atmosphere.

Now, if the student is still confused, he might ask...
Q: Teacher, how can light be filtered?
A: Well different colors of light come from slightly different frequencies. For example, see how this prism seperates light that passes through it into different colors, well the different particles in our atmosphere do something similar... (on and on)

The first question is basic, the second question is a follow-up and clarifying question. See how that works?

Now, what you've done is stopped after the first answer, and proclaimed "Obfiscater! You're hiding the real truth! I know your lies!" (On second thought, if I ever have a kid, I'm gonna make sure he does that in his science class... should be good for a laugh)

And, you did indeed say that you don't believe in God! I'll locate it and post it...hold on...

Here's one...from your post #95 on this thread.

Here's another one...

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=6809429&page=25

So, if you are admittedly NOT Christian, and refer to God as "your god", then you aren't Jewish because we serve the same God, but you might be muslim or hindu or an agnostic. You can't be an atheist because you have to believe in a god in order to be a Freemason.

So, when you said "you did indeed say that you don't believe in god!"... what you meant to say was "I'm sorry, I was mistaken, you said you were not a christian and you seem to believe in a god other than the god I believe in".... right?

Regardless, wasn't your point that you thought I didn't understand christianity and therefore couldn't understand the point you were trying to make? I believe I provided plenty of biographical information to substantiate my position that I do, in fact, understand the points you are attempting to make.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Where? Where have I not been clear? If you need me to be more clear, just ask a clarifying question. Ok, maybe you're not good at that... let me give you an example and you can work from there:

Q: Teacher, why is the sky blue?
A: Because of how light gets filtered through our atmosphere.

Now, if the student is still confused, he might ask...
Q: Teacher, how can light be filtered?
A: Well different colors of light come from slightly different frequencies. For example, see how this prism seperates light that passes through it into different colors, well the different particles in our atmosphere do something similar... (on and on)

The first question is basic, the second question is a follow-up and clarifying question. See how that works?

Now, what you've done is stopped after the first answer, and proclaimed "Obfiscater! You're hiding the real truth! I know your lies!" (On second thought, if I ever have a kid, I'm gonna make sure he does that in his science class... should be good for a laugh)



So, when you said "you did indeed say that you don't believe in god!"... what you meant to say was "I'm sorry, I was mistaken, you said you were not a christian and you seem to believe in a god other than the god I believe in".... right?

Regardless, wasn't your point that you thought I didn't understand christianity and therefore couldn't understand the point you were trying to make? I believe I provided plenty of biographical information to substantiate my position that I do, in fact, understand the points you are attempting to make.

OK, Jester, for the 2nd time...pull out a 3rd degree tracing board (or any degree tracing board) and tell us the legend and the meaning of all the symbolism in it. Do not obfuscate.

 

[Jester4kicks]

OK, Jester, for the 2nd time...pull out a 3rd degree tracing board (or any degree tracing board) and tell us the legend and the meaning of all the symbolism in it. Do not obfuscate.

Ok, I'll give it my best shot. I'll try to keep it objective, but my opinion of meaning might slide in from time to time. Let's use the following tracing board that I simply looked up on google:

Ok, let's see if I can break this down...

The border: You'll notice that along the border are the letters "N, S, E, and W". These represent the directions North, South, East, and West. In Freemasonry, "travelling" west to east is symbolic of seeking light (knowledge) since the sun rises in the east.

Now then, going from top to bottom...

Acacia plant: The Acacia plant is mentioned in the legend of Hiram Abiff as growing above his grave. Symbolically, it represents to purity and endurance of the soul, as well as resurrection and immortality. (note: nowhere in the legend of Hiram Abiff is there any suggestion that he was resurrected to life. As far as I know, the resurrection and immortality meaning refers only to the soul)

Below the acacia, we see a coffin with various symbols on it, once again referring to the legend of Hiram Abiff. In the legend, Hiram Abiff was the master mason of King Solomon's temple. He refused to give all of his knowledge of masonry to three fellowcraft masons, and they killed him for it.

Going from top to bottom on the coffin itself:

The common gavel: Symbolizes governance and teaches masons to hammer their rough edges smooth (basic metaphor for correcting our flaws).

The compass: Multiple meanings; teaches masons to circumscribe their desires, also reminds masons the keep themselves connected to the center of their lives.

The trowel: (at least, I think that's what it is... it's the only working tool not clearly found elsewhere on the coffin, and I can't think of what else that symbol could be) Reminds masons to spread the cement of brotherly love and friendship.

Page of Hebrew writing(?): I'm not as familiar with hebrew, I've read a couple explanations, but I don't have enough of a grasp of it to provide a simple explanation. I'm pretty sure it relates to Hiram Abiff's name, and the year that he died. Not sure on this one, if it's important, let me know and I'll try to find out more.

Skull and crossbones: Another symbol of the death of Hiram Abiff. I'm not sure if they are meant to have additional meaning. I've always thought they were part of the coffin with the symbols of freemasonry added around them.

The number "5" (at three places on the coffin): This represents the 5 points of fellowship. In masonry, these points are the foot, knee, breast, back, and mouth-to-ear. I've heard that there are lessons behind each point, like the foot represeting how far we are willing to travel to help our fellow man, or the mouth-to-ear represeting how we should not speak poorly of our fellow man in his absence... but I don't know these stories well enough to fully explain them. I can research them further if you like. As far as I know, the three occurences of the number 5 refers to the three degrees of masonry, and that the 5 points of fellowship apply to each degree equally.

The arch, columns, and floor: These are a representation of the sanctum santorum (sp?), which was the highest chamber in King Solomon's temple. According to the legend, Hiram Abiff died before completing it. When a masonic lodge is opened on the third degree, it is done so in a place representing the sanctum santorum (sp?).

The common gavel: Same meaning as above, not sure if there is additional meaning to it's second appearance above the other working tools.

The level: As I believe I mentioned earlier, the level (along with the plumb line) teaches masons to meet "on the level" (treat each other as equals), and the plumb line that is attached to the level reminds masons to be upright before man and toward god (upright used as a metaphor for honesty and integrity... the opposite being hunched over - ever seen a movie with a villain that is always hunching over and sneaking around?

The 24" guage: Symbolizes the day, broken up into 24 hours, and reminds masons to divide their time between work and rest, service to god and service to their fellow man.

The square: Reminds masons to square their actions before god, and toward their fellow man.



I think that about covers it... apart from the sections that I'm not familiar with enough to adequately cover. If you want to know more, I'll try to research them further.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Ok, I'll give it my best shot. I'll try to keep it objective, but my opinion of meaning might slide in from time to time. Let's use the following tracing board that I simply looked up on google:

Ok, let's see if I can break this down...

The border: You'll notice that along the border are the letters "N, S, E, and W". These represent the directions North, South, East, and West. In Freemasonry, "travelling" west to east is symbolic of seeking light (knowledge) since the sun rises in the east.

Now then, going from top to bottom...

Acacia plant: The Acacia plant is mentioned in the legend of Hiram Abiff as growing above his grave. Symbolically, it represents to purity and endurance of the soul, as well as resurrection and immortality. (note: nowhere in the legend of Hiram Abiff is there any suggestion that he was resurrected to life. As far as I know, the resurrection and immortality meaning refers only to the soul)

Below the acacia, we see a coffin with various symbols on it, once again referring to the legend of Hiram Abiff. In the legend, Hiram Abiff was the master mason of King Solomon's temple. He refused to give all of his knowledge of masonry to three fellowcraft masons, and they killed him for it.

Going from top to bottom on the coffin itself:

The common gavel: Symbolizes governance and teaches masons to hammer their rough edges smooth (basic metaphor for correcting our flaws).

The compass: Multiple meanings; teaches masons to circumscribe their desires, also reminds masons the keep themselves connected to the center of their lives.

The trowel: (at least, I think that's what it is... it's the only working tool not clearly found elsewhere on the coffin, and I can't think of what else that symbol could be) Reminds masons to spread the cement of brotherly love and friendship.

Page of Hebrew writing(?): I'm not as familiar with hebrew, I've read a couple explanations, but I don't have enough of a grasp of it to provide a simple explanation. I'm pretty sure it relates to Hiram Abiff's name, and the year that he died. Not sure on this one, if it's important, let me know and I'll try to find out more.

Skull and crossbones: Another symbol of the death of Hiram Abiff. I'm not sure if they are meant to have additional meaning. I've always thought they were part of the coffin with the symbols of freemasonry added around them.

The number "5" (at three places on the coffin): This represents the 5 points of fellowship. In masonry, these points are the foot, knee, breast, back, and mouth-to-ear. I've heard that there are lessons behind each point, like the foot represeting how far we are willing to travel to help our fellow man, or the mouth-to-ear represeting how we should not speak poorly of our fellow man in his absence... but I don't know these stories well enough to fully explain them. I can research them further if you like. As far as I know, the three occurences of the number 5 refers to the three degrees of masonry, and that the 5 points of fellowship apply to each degree equally.

The arch, columns, and floor: These are a representation of the sanctum santorum (sp?), which was the highest chamber in King Solomon's temple. According to the legend, Hiram Abiff died before completing it. When a masonic lodge is opened on the third degree, it is done so in a place representing the sanctum santorum (sp?).

The common gavel: Same meaning as above, not sure if there is additional meaning to it's second appearance above the other working tools.

The level: As I believe I mentioned earlier, the level (along with the plumb line) teaches masons to meet "on the level" (treat each other as equals), and the plumb line that is attached to the level reminds masons to be upright before man and toward god (upright used as a metaphor for honesty and integrity... the opposite being hunched over - ever seen a movie with a villain that is always hunching over and sneaking around?

The 24" guage: Symbolizes the day, broken up into 24 hours, and reminds masons to divide their time between work and rest, service to god and service to their fellow man.

The square: Reminds masons to square their actions before god, and toward their fellow man.



I think that about covers it... apart from the sections that I'm not familiar with enough to adequately cover. If you want to know more, I'll try to research them further.

THANK YOU!

Now, let me try to fill in some gaps for you....

"sanctum santorum" means "Holy of Holies"

Notice that there is a curtain or veil in the image. The curtain is lifted...and who is that behind the curtain? Is it the Ark?

That section, in particular, is the most disturbing to me as a Christian.

The Holy of Holies, according to scripture, was the innermost part of the temple where God would meet with a priest once a year. There was a curtain between the Holy of Holies and another inner area in the temple in Jerusalem. When Jesus was killed, the curtain was torn in two, representing the fact that He is the Way to God.


Hbr 6:19 We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain,
Hbr 6:20where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.



Furthermore, I believe that the temples were built facing East which the tracing board also shows.

I see the symbolism in the tracing board as leading to a false "way" to God, to look "behind the curtain".

The fact that the Holy of Holies is placed on a coffin beneath a scull and cross-bones, beneath dirt where a tree is growing is disturbing. The Holy of Holies is where God would come to the earth within the temples of Jerusalem. Why is it being associated with death?

The black and white squares, I've read, represent light/dark or good/evil on an even playing field, so to speak.

Your descriptions of the meaning of this tracing board are interesting but coupled with the legend of Hiram Abiff, it doesn't really make sense as a "be a good person" type of lesson. It's more about death and entering into the Holy of Holies, where God "dwelt" when on earth. If you travel from West to East, seeking knowledge, ....hmmm...."life" (acacia leaf) to "death" (foot of the coffin)...hmmm... by the way, Jesus, when He returns, will appear in the Eastern sky...essentially "traveling" East to West, not West to East... Many graves face East in Jerusalem as does the coffin in this tracing board.

Eze 43:1 Then the man brought me to the gate facing east,
Eze 43:2 and I saw the glory of the God of Israel coming from the east. His voice was like the roar of rushing waters, and the land was radiant with his glory.
Eze 43:3 The vision I saw was like the vision I had seen when he came to destroy the city and like the visions I had seen by the Kebar River, and I fell facedown.
Eze 43:4 The glory of the LORD entered the temple through the gate facing east.
Eze 43:5 Then the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court, and the glory of the LORD filled the temple.


Here's the other guys description:

"On the Third Degree Tracing Board, the grave probably does not refer to physical death. During the Renaissance there was much discussion about "the Fall of man" and its effect. "The Fall" seems to refer to some event by which human beings, who were at one time conscious of the Divine Presence, lost that consciousness. After "the Fall," ordinary human life, as we live it on a day-to-day basis, is "like death" when compared to human potential and to a life lived in the conscious awareness of Divine presence. The grave suggests such a "death" to be our present state. The acacia growing at the top of the grave suggests that there is a spark of life which can be encouraged to grow and refers to the possibility of regaining our original Divine connection. The view of the Temple in the center of the Third Degree Board shows "King Solomon&#8217;s Porch," the entrance to the "Holy of Holies." The veil is drawn back a little offering a glimpse into that chamber where the Deity was said to reside. This suggests that at the end of the journey from West to East some process analogous to death enables the individual to experience the Divine presence. After this process has occurred, he lives once more at his full potential. Again, I think that this refers neither to a resurrection after physical death nor to a life after physical death; both of which are the domain of religion, not Masonry. Rather, it refers to a psychological/spiritual process which can occur, if it be God&#8217;s will, within any devout individual who seeks it earnestly and which I believe it to be the business of Freemasonry to encourage. After all, we claim to be Freemasons, and this is that Truth, the knowing of which "make you free." "

http://srjarchives.tripod.com/1998-10/MACNULTY.HTM





It is sort of like a pseudo-Christianity kind of teaching/understaniding ...without Christ.

I'd be interested in seeing what a 30-33 degree tracing board looks like.

Edit to add:

YOU cannot tell me that a temple in Jerusalem is NOT important to the Freemasons. It will be important to the anti-christ who will stand in the temple and proclaim that he is God. (2 Thess 2/Daniel 11)
There hasn't been a temple standing in nearly 2000 years. What would the Freemasons do, who base their legends and symbolism on the temple, when one is actually standing? Do you think they'd want control of it?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

One other thing that I am compelled to mention, Jester, is the fact that Freemasons, Jews, Christians, and even the anti-christ ALL associate the Jewish Temple, the Holy of Holies, even God with absolute Truth.

Whether Freemasons are good or evil, it seems clear that Judeo-Christian beliefs hold the TRUTH which should tell you something rather important about "our God" and "our Word of God".

 

[Jester4kicks]

THANK YOU!

Now, let me try to fill in some gaps for you....

"sanctum santorum" means "Holy of Holies"

Notice that there is a curtain or veil in the image. The curtain is lifted...and who is that behind the curtain? Is it the Ark?

I've never heard the ark mentioned in any masonic lodge, nor do I see how it would fit into the legend. As for the curtain, I'm not sure if it is meant to designate anything other than the privacy of the chamber. Some tracing boards feature a depiction of the sanctum santorum without any curtain at all.

That section, in particular, is the most disturbing to me as a Christian.

The Holy of Holies, according to scripture, was the innermost part of the temple where God would meet with a priest once a year. There was a curtain between the Holy of Holies and another inner area in the temple in Jerusalem. When Jesus was killed, the curtain was torn in two, representing the fact that He is the Way to God.

Hbr 6:19 We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain,
Hbr 6:20where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.

Fortunately, "Sanctum Sanctorm" does just refer to the christian usage.

From wiki:
The Latin phrase sanctum sanctorum means literally "Holy of Holies." It was originally applied in a religious context to the most sacred place within a sacred building, such as a temple. However, in common usage can also be applied to mean any reserved, private, or much-valued place. The term is used in other religions to refer to a most sacred religious shrine.
Sanctum sanctorum can also be used to specify the innermost shrine of a Jewish temple, or more specifically, the innermost shrine (Kodesh Hakodashim) of the Tabernacle, and later the Temple of Solomon.
Sanctum sanctorum refers to the "garbha griha" in Hinduism, meaning the shrine inside a temple complex where the main deity is installed in an area that is in a separate building by itself inside the complex.

I can at least see the connection you are making, but you're once again assuming that the symbol is speaking only in christian terms.

Furthermore, I believe that the temples were built facing East which the tracing board also shows.

Actually, all masonic lodges are supposed to be established in square or rectangular buildings, with the master's position (representing the east) actually sitting at the east end of the room. It doesn't always work out that way due to budget or location restrictions... but it's encouraged.

I see the symbolism in the tracing board as leading to a false "way" to God, to look "behind the curtain".

As I said, i think you're reading too much into the curtain.

The fact that the Holy of Holies is placed on a coffin beneath a scull and cross-bones, beneath dirt where a tree is growing is disturbing. The Holy of Holies is where God would come to the earth within the temples of Jerusalem. Why is it being associated with death?

By the same reasoning, you would have to argue that masons are trying to say the working tools are associated with death... personally, I think it's just how the board is laid out... but if you wanted to think of it another way, you could also say that the tracing board I linked to is not a profile (side) view... but an overhead view... in which case we don't even know if the designer intended the coffin to be seen as being underground.

The black and white squares, I've read, represent light/dark or good/evil on an even playing field, so to speak.

I've seen a few interpreations of it... although I've never heard of someone using it to say good and evil were equal. I have heard it interpretted to mean that we deal with good and bad throughout our daily lives. Heck, this might just be a coincidence, but one phrase used in masonry is that "we meet upon the level, and depart upon the square". Who knows... maybe the checkerboard floor is supposed to just hint toward that.

Your descriptions of the meaning of this tracing board are interesting but coupled with the legend of Hiram Abiff, it doesn't really make sense as a "be a good person" type of lesson. It's more about death and entering into the Holy of Holies, where God "dwelt" when on earth. If you travel from West to East, seeking knowledge, ....hmmm...."life" (acacia leaf) to "death" (foot of the coffin)...hmmm... by the way, Jesus, when He returns, will appear in the Eastern sky...essentially "traveling" East to West, not West to East... Many graves face East in Jerusalem.

The legend of Hiram Abiff is about his death, but it's meaning touches on honesty, patience, integrity, honor, and the endurance of the soul. You seem to be combining the death aspect with your misconception of the sanctum sanctorum.

As for the position of the coffin, it's facing east... the acacia plant could have just been placed about it because I would imagine it's very difficult to paint a giant plant over the entire tracing board, and still preserve all the symbols.

Here's the other guys description:

"On the Third Degree Tracing Board, the grave probably does not refer to physical death. During the Renaissance there was much discussion about "the Fall of man" and its effect. "The Fall" seems to refer to some event by which human beings, who were at one time conscious of the Divine Presence, lost that consciousness. After "the Fall," ordinary human life, as we live it on a day-to-day basis, is "like death" when compared to human potential and to a life lived in the conscious awareness of Divine presence. The grave suggests such a "death" to be our present state. The acacia growing at the top of the grave suggests that there is a spark of life which can be encouraged to grow and refers to the possibility of regaining our original Divine connection. The view of the Temple in the center of the Third Degree Board shows "King Solomon’s Porch," the entrance to the "Holy of Holies." The veil is drawn back a little offering a glimpse into that chamber where the Deity was said to reside. This suggests that at the end of the journey from West to East some process analogous to death enables the individual to experience the Divine presence. After this process has occurred, he lives once more at his full potential. Again, I think that this refers neither to a resurrection after physical death nor to a life after physical death; both of which are the domain of religion, not Masonry. Rather, it refers to a psychological/spiritual process which can occur, if it be God’s will, within any devout individual who seeks it earnestly and which I believe it to be the business of Freemasonry to encourage. After all, we claim to be Freemasons, and this is that Truth, the knowing of which "make you free." "

http://srjarchives.tripod.com/1998-10/MACNULTY.HTM

I addressed this quote before, although I still don't know which tracing board he was looking at when he wrote this. Regardless, he's certainly entitled to his own interpretation. There are tons of documents written by masons that describe their own interpretations of the various symbols and lectures in Freemasonry. As i said when I provided my explanation, I was trying to keep my own interpreations and opinions out of it, and only report on how it is taught within a lodge.

It is sort of like a pseudo-Christianity kind of teaching/understaniding ...without Christ.

Somewhat. Freemasonry certainly encourages good deeds as a requirement of the eternity of the soul (salvation, whatever you want to call it)... although it makes no religious claims regarding belief. It does, however, encourage masons to continue pursuing their own faiths, and to continue to serve god in the way they believe is right.

So, for a christian mason, he would certainly want to continue pursuing his relationship with christ.... but a jewish mason would obviously have a different belief.

I'd be interested in seeing what a 30-33 degree tracing board looks like.

I'm pretty sure they don't have tracing boards. Remember, the additional degrees come from the different branches that are not actually part of traditional Freemasonry. Furthermore, the origin of the tracing boards was to assist the person giving the lecture. I believe the lessons from the different branches (York and Scottish Rite) are actually written down... so there would never have been a need for tracing boards.

 

[Jester4kicks]

YOU cannot tell me that a temple in Jerusalem is NOT important to the Freemasons. It will be important to the anti-christ who will stand in the temple and proclaim that he is God. (2 Thess 2/Daniel 11)

Umm... how does that make it important to Freemasons?

There hasn't been a temple standing in nearly 2000 years. What would the Freemasons do, who base their legends and symbolism on the temple, when one is actually standing? Do you think they'd want control of it?

I dunno... I don't see why the masons would really care, since any mason will openly admit that the symbols and relationships to the temple are only based in legend.

It's like asking, "If a lion cub was born in Africa, would a baboon want to hold it up on a rock?" (you have kids, so you should get that reference)

One other thing that I am compelled to mention, Jester, is the fact that Freemasons, Jews, Christians, and even the anti-christ ALL associate the Jewish Temple, the Holy of Holies, even God with absolute Truth.

Whether Freemasons are good or evil, it seems clear that Judeo-Christian beliefs hold the TRUTH which should tell you something rather important about "our God" and "our Word of God".

I'm not sure what you meant by all this... are you still confused about what the Sanctum Sanctorum was, and what it means to masons?

I'm also confused by what you said about "truth"... what did you mean?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

I've never heard the ark mentioned in any masonic lodge, nor do I see how it would fit into the legend. As for the curtain, I'm not sure if it is meant to designate anything other than the privacy of the chamber. Some tracing boards feature a depiction of the sanctum santorum without any curtain at all.

Then what is behind the curtain on the tracing board? It should be the ark of the covenant....or God...

The "sanctum santorum" or "Holy of Holies" of Solomon's Temple along with the legend of Hiram Abiff places the importance or focus on the Scriptural account of the Holy Place as opposed to any other religion's account of something similar. [In a way, it could be described as a "portal" or "doorway" between God and mankind which opens up the can of worms in reference to the Tower of Babel. They were seeking to unseat God.]

Fortunately, "Sanctum Sanctorm" does just refer to the christian usage.

From wiki:
The Latin phrase sanctum sanctorum means literally "Holy of Holies." It was originally applied in a religious context to the most sacred place within a sacred building, such as a temple. However, in common usage can also be applied to mean any reserved, private, or much-valued place. The term is used in other religions to refer to a most sacred religious shrine.
Sanctum sanctorum can also be used to specify the innermost shrine of a Jewish temple, or more specifically, the innermost shrine (Kodesh Hakodashim) of the Tabernacle, and later the Temple of Solomon.
Sanctum sanctorum refers to the "garbha griha" in Hinduism, meaning the shrine inside a temple complex where the main deity is installed in an area that is in a separate building by itself inside the complex.

I can at least see the connection you are making, but you're once again assuming that the symbol is speaking only in christian terms.

It is in Judeo-Christian terms because of the legend that accompanies it. Any other religions ideas of a doorway or portal to God is a fake or forgery of the real thing.

As I said, i think you're reading too much into the curtain.

Not when you understand the importance of the curtain (barrier between God and man) scripturally. When Jesus died, the massive curtain ripped in two from top to bottom. It is significant.

By the same reasoning, you would have to argue that masons are trying to say the working tools are associated with death... personally, I think it's just how the board is laid out... but if you wanted to think of it another way, you could also say that the tracing board I linked to is not a profile (side) view... but an overhead view... in which case we don't even know if the designer intended the coffin to be seen as being underground.

Well, personally, it looks as though you are supposed to "read" it from a couple of different angles. From top to bottom and front, looking in.

I've seen a few interpreations of it... although I've never heard of someone using it to say good and evil were equal. I have heard it interpretted to mean that we deal with good and bad throughout our daily lives. Heck, this might just be a coincidence, but one phrase used in masonry is that "we meet upon the level, and depart upon the square". Who knows... maybe the checkerboard floor is supposed to just hint toward that.

I would think so...it's not like the colors are blue and green, they are black and white which is symbolic of good and evil.
I've read that in Freemasonry, squares refer to the physical realm and circles to the spiritual.

The legend of Hiram Abiff is about his death, but it's meaning touches on honesty, patience, integrity, honor, and the endurance of the soul. You seem to be combining the death aspect with your misconception of the sanctum sanctorum.

No misconception. The Legend identifies Solomon's temple. The sanctum sanctorum refers to the Holy of Holies in the Temple.

Somewhat. Freemasonry certainly encourages good deeds as a requirement of the eternity of the soul (salvation, whatever you want to call it)... although it makes no religious claims regarding belief. It does, however, encourage masons to continue pursuing their own faiths, and to continue to serve god in the way they believe is right.

So, for a christian mason, he would certainly want to continue pursuing his relationship with christ.... but a jewish mason would obviously have a different belief.

Interesting...because the legend speaks of Solomon's temple. What would a muslim or a buddist appreciate about rituals tied to a legend that references the Holy of Holies and Solomon's Temple? That is important because the Judeo-Christian God, the God of the Scriptures, is clear that He is the only God there is and it is Him and Him alone that we love and worship. It was He who came down to the Holy of Holies, behind that curtain. If the Freemasons lead their members to the importance and significance of the Holy of Holies (as being where God (and therefore truth/wisdom/knowledge) resides on earth), yet they believe that God can be anything you want him to be....hmmm...well, it just harkens back to why angels fall. They believe that they have enough knowledge to be as powerful as God (at least in the mind of mankind), even to unseat the True God by doing the things He taught them to do... What would a human being do with supernatural, yet incomplete, knowledge of the way of the universe? He would deny God (the One True God) and set himself up as a god while using his incomplete supernatural knowledge to destroy the planet.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Umm... how does that make it important to Freemasons?

The Freemasons are using the Holy of Holies and Solomon's Temple, the curtain/veil to teach "truth". God has the only truth/knowledge there is. He "dwelt" behind the curtain, in the Holy of Holies in Solomon's Temple.

I dunno... I don't see why the masons would really care, since any mason will openly admit that the symbols and relationships to the temple are only based in legend.

It's like asking, "If a lion cub was born in Africa, would a baboon want to hold it up on a rock?" (you have kids, so you should get that reference)

The Freemasons will indeed care when construction begins on the Temple.
They know that God dwells with men behind the curtain in the Holy of Holies (at least He did in the past) of the Temple.

The problem that I see with the Freemasons is that they want the Knowledge/Truth of God without actually going to God for it. They think that they can find Knowledge/Truth by alternate means.

Biblically, we are told to ask, seek, knock OF GOD and HE will GIVE wisdom, knowledge, Spirit. But the Freemasons aren't really doing that...certainly, they are asking, seeking, knocking but on someone else's door.

Here is the author&#8217;s (32 degree Freemason named Peters) conclusion:
http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.co...e_refused.html

&#8220;Whatever the original provenance and impetus of Freemasonry, it seems clear that encoded within the rituals is a profound doctrine of spiritual illumination or Gnosis. With the application of tools such as gematria, isopsophy, temurah and notariqon, a wealth of otherwise hidden wisdom begins to reveal itself. Applying the lamp of focused consciousness on these symbols, the treasure chest opens.

Symbols may be thought of as a living, dynamic centers of energy. By focusing on them and taking them into deep contemplation, this energy is unlocked from within, revealing the Royal Art as a series of signposts in consciousness. By following these signs into meditation, we may eventually come away with a further, profounder understanding of ourselves and our position in the universe.&#8221;

I'm not sure what you meant by all this... are you still confused about what the Sanctum Sanctorum was, and what it means to masons?

No, the Sanctum Sanctorum is most definitely where God resides while on earth and refers to that place in the Temple known as the Holy of Holies.

I'm also confused by what you said about "truth"... what did you mean?

Truth = wisdom of God, knowledge of God

They are seeking it but not going to God for it. In fact, their idea of God is a bit skewed. What they are finding is the incomplete knowledge that the fallen angels taught mankind pre-flood which led to a whole lot of people dying.

Jhn 18:36 Jesus said, &#8220;My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place.&#8221;
Jhn 18:37 &#8220;You are a king, then!&#8221; said Pilate.
Jesus answered, &#8220;You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.&#8221;
Jhn 18:38 &#8220;What is truth?&#8221; Pilate asked.


Edit to add:

ALL of this is why Christ is not in the teachings of Freemasonry. The Bible teaches that Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life...that no one goes to God but by Him! They are trying to find a way, some bit of truth that takes them to or toward God WITHOUT having to go to Christ. This is very dangerous.

The "wisdom" of the fallen angels will give them amazing knowledge of the way of the universe, but it won't lead them to God.


Rom 1:25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator-who is forever praised. Amen.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Another way to know that Freemason's ideas are based on Biblical information are the two pillars, Jacob's ladder.

Here is a website with interesting info...

http://www.bradford.ac.uk/webofhiram/?section=lectures_craft

 

[Jester4kicks]

Then what is behind the curtain on the tracing board? It should be the ark of the covenant....or God...

I would ask why... but you're just going to equate the masonic account of the sanctum sanctorum with the christian story behind it... and since I've already explained how that connection is not automatic, it doesn't seem worth it to bother asking.

The "sanctum santorum" or "Holy of Holies" of Solomon's Temple along with the legend of Hiram Abiff places the importance or focus on the Scriptural account of the Holy Place as opposed to any other religion's account of something similar. [In a way, it could be described as a "portal" or "doorway" between God and mankind which opens up the can of worms in reference to the Tower of Babel. They were seeking to unseat God.

Where did you get that? Or are you just making things up as you go along again?

It is in Judeo-Christian terms because of the legend that accompanies it.

Yeah, because why assume words mean what they actually mean when you can just twist them to meet your own context....

Not when you understand the importance of the curtain (barrier between God and man) scripturally. When Jesus died, the massive curtain ripped in two from top to bottom. It is significant.

Once again assuming that the symbol is meant to convey any kind of meaning related to christianity. From the limited research I just did... it's not even historically accurate. The curtain in the first temple would have been much to heavy to pull aside... and even if you did, the curtain was just covering a wall! The image isn't even accurate if you consider the second temple, which had two curtains.

You are looking for additional meaning where there is none.

Well, personally, it looks as though you are supposed to "read" it from a couple of different angles. From top to bottom and front, looking in.

Really? It's essentially a piece of art... so, I have to ask, what direction do you "read" the Mona Lisa?

I would think so...it's not like the colors are blue and green, they are black and white which is symbolic of good and evil.
I've read that in Freemasonry, squares refer to the physical realm and circles to the spiritual.

Well here's an answer from a grand lodge monitor, "The Mosaic Pavement is emblematic of human life, checkered with good and evil".

As for the square-circle thing... I've never heard that. Doesn't make much sense either, since the most spiritual part of masonry is the belief in god... so if you were right, you would think the "G" would be surrounded with a circle... but instead it's at the center of the square and compasses.

No misconception. The Legend identifies Solomon's temple. The sanctum sanctorum refers to the Holy of Holies in the Temple.

You're not hearing me. Let me try this another way...

I take two lengths of wood. I bisect one of the pieces with the other piece, so that the two are perpendicular and attached roughly 1/4 of the way from the first piece's end. I hammer the two together.

You look at it and say "you've just made a cross! It's a symbol of christianity and reminds us that chirst died for us!"

I look at you and say ".... um... I hammered two pieces of wood together."

Get it?

Interesting...because the legend speaks of Solomon's temple. What would a muslim or a buddist appreciate about rituals tied to a legend that references the Holy of Holies and Solomon's Temple? That is important because the Judeo-Christian God, the God of the Scriptures, is clear that He is the only God there is and it is Him and Him alone that we love and worship. It was He who came down to the Holy of Holies, behind that curtain. If the Freemasons lead their members to the importance and significance of the Holy of Holies (as being where God (and therefore truth/wisdom/knowledge) resides on earth), yet they believe that God can be anything you want him to be....hmmm...well, it just harkens back to why angels fall. They believe that they have enough knowledge to be as powerful as God (at least in the mind of mankind), even to unseat the True God by doing the things He taught them to do... What would a human being do with supernatural, yet incomplete, knowledge of the way of the universe? He would deny God (the One True God) and set himself up as a god while using his incomplete supernatural knowledge to destroy the planet.

Your confusion is coming from your insistence that the masonic legend is supposed to convey or carry a christian conotation.

If I were to tell you the story of the ant and the grasshopper, and you decided that the ant was a christian... you would probably ask why non-christians would appreciate the story (and you would be right).

Fortunately, the story of the ant and the grasshopper has nothing to do with a specific religion... and neither does the legend of Hiram Abiff.

The Freemasons are using the Holy of Holies and Solomon's Temple, the curtain/veil to teach "truth".

God has the only truth/knowledge there is. He "dwelt" behind the curtain, in the Holy of Holies in Solomon's Temple.

Later in this post, you defined "truth" as "wisdom of god" or "knowledge of god". So, to clarify this statement, you as saying masons are using the sanctum sanctorum, solomon's temple, and the curtain to teach the wisdom of god or the knowledge of god....

...so I ask you, where did I ever say that masons were trying to teach ANYTHING about god?

The Freemasons will indeed care when construction begins on the Temple.
They know that God dwells with men behind the curtain in the Holy of Holies (at least He did in the past) of the Temple.

The problem that I see with the Freemasons is that they want the Knowledge/Truth of God without actually going to God for it. They think that they can find Knowledge/Truth by alternate means.

Where did you get this idea? Or are you just making things up as you go along again?

Biblically, we are told to ask, seek, knock OF GOD and HE will GIVE wisdom, knowledge, Spirit. But the Freemasons aren't really doing that...certainly, they are asking, seeking, knocking but on someone else's door.

Here is the author’s (32 degree Freemason named Peters) conclusion:
http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.co...e_refused.html

“Whatever the original provenance and impetus of Freemasonry, it seems clear that encoded within the rituals is a profound doctrine of spiritual illumination or Gnosis. With the application of tools such as gematria, isopsophy, temurah and notariqon, a wealth of otherwise hidden wisdom begins to reveal itself. Applying the lamp of focused consciousness on these symbols, the treasure chest opens.

Symbols may be thought of as a living, dynamic centers of energy. By focusing on them and taking them into deep contemplation, this energy is unlocked from within, revealing the Royal Art as a series of signposts in consciousness. By following these signs into meditation, we may eventually come away with a further, profounder understanding of ourselves and our position in the universe.”

I believe we've discussed that author's perspective before... and I've already told you that he's just one guy, writing what he thinks.

Truth = wisdom of God, knowledge of God

They are seeking it but not going to God for it. In fact, their idea of God is a bit skewed. What they are finding is the incomplete knowledge that the fallen angels taught mankind pre-flood which led to a whole lot of people dying.

I would love to see you define Freemasonry's idea of god... since you seem to be so familiar with it. I would also love to see what you think Freemasonry is teaching, in regard to this "knowledge of fallen angels".

Edit to add:

ALL of this is why Christ is not in the teachings of Freemasonry. The Bible teaches that Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life...that no one goes to God but by Him! They are trying to find a way, some bit of truth that takes them to or toward God WITHOUT having to go to Christ. This is very dangerous.

Guess what else isn't in Freemasonry:
Teachings from genesis...
Teachings of moses...
Teachings of mohammed...
Teachings of buddha...

...because Freemasonry does not teach religion! I'm not sure how many different ways I can say that.

The "wisdom" of the fallen angels will give them amazing knowledge of the way of the universe, but it won't lead them to God.

Personally, I doubt it will do either... but that's just because I don't believe man learned anything from evil versions of tinkerbell.

 

[Jester4kicks]

Another way to know that Freemason's ideas are based on Biblical information are the two pillars, Jacob's ladder.

Here is a website with interesting info...

http://www.bradford.ac.uk/webofhiram/?section=lectures_craft

The two pillars? I can only assume you are referring to Jachin and Boaz.

Here's some more info on them... although I didn't read the whole page, so I can't vouch for it's entire accuracy: http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/scripts/pillars.html

What does that have to do with jacob's ladder?