Freedom from Sin: Overcoming the Wet Paint Principle (the complete version)

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Also, the idea that we are saved by grace through faith + works is a false doctrine taught by cults such as Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons.

Guilt by association is not always true.
Catholics believe in the Trinity. That does not mean the doctrine of the Trinity is false. Besides, not only is the "We can break God's laws and still be saved" not biblical but it is not moral and good, either. Hence why you will never be able to make a real world example or parable out of what you believe.

You said:
Ephesians 2:9 says, "not of works, lest any man should bost"

Who is being spoken of in Ephesians 2:9?

"Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:9).

This is talking about "Man Directed Works" and not "God Directed Works" done through the believer. Hence, why Paul says that the kind of works he is condemning here is man boasting in his own works or deeds.

In Ephesians 2:10 is when Paul mentions "God Directed Works." But he doesn't want to confuse his readers on the importance of how we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith, so Paul continues to hammer home his point on the process of Justification (or having faith in the Lord for salvation).

You said:
Romans 4:5 says, "But to him that worketh not but believeth on him who justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

You have to read this in balance to other Scripture verses. This cannot mean we are reprobate of good works because Titus 1:16 says that we can deny God by a lack of works.

You said:
Titus 3:5 says, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

Is the washing, regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost a one time event?

Is the word "saved" present tense or past tense?

You said:
See also Philippians 3:1. The context of Romans 4:5 is not circumcision except all the way back in Romans 3:1 which is not in the same context. In fact, Romans 3:2 says there is much advantage in circumcision for the Jew, so he is not dealing with circumcision salvationism here. For that you have to go to Galatians which is not the same context as Romans 4:5.

I disagree. Paul is arguing against "Circumcision Salvationism" in a good majority of his letter to the Romans by referencing the word "Law" because it is all one letter trying to make a point in trusting in Jesus vs. "What profit is there in circumcision?" (Romans 3:1). Circumcision was a part of the Old Law. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we are to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
 
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17 Therefore if I desire to and am able to come to Christ in repentance, I have not willfully sinned against Him as one who knows the truth in all of its fullness.

Well, having repented in the past does not mean you can sin again and be in God's good graces. It doesn't work like that. If such were the case, then Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, and 1 John 3:15 would be gibberish non-sense or useless warnings.

In fact, we are told that if we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). Forgiveness deals with salvation. A person cannot be saved also be unforgiven. 1 John 1:7 also says if we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. This means we have to forsake sin or obey God's commandments to be saved or have the blood cleanse us (Compare 1 John 1:6-7 with 1 John 2:3-4). Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

Also, people have all sorts of strange ideas today in what "repentance" means.

My Biblical Case For Repentance:

At the heart, I believe repentance means, "Asking God for forgiveness"

(Which of course naturally then leads to the "fruits of repentance", i.e. obedience to the Lord):

Important Note: While I may believe "Repentance" does involve to a certain degree a "change of mind" (like a person changing their mind about their old life of sin), I do not think "Repentance" exclusively means a “change of mind.”

Anyways, here are my ten points using Scripture showing that "repentance" means "asking God for forgiveness of sin."


#1. Acts 2:38, The New Living Translation says in Acts 2:38 to "repent of your sins."
Douay Reheims says in Acts 2:38 to "Do penance."
New Life Version says in Acts 2:38 to "Be sorry for your sins"


#2. Luke 17:3 says, "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him." This doesn't make any sense if "repent" means believe in Jesus (as some teach) or to have a change of mind about sin (as others teach) or to exclusively forsake sin. Yes, we are to forsake sin as a part of repentance but that comes later after repentance (Which is to ask God for forgiveness of our sin). For how can we reconcile with a brother if we do not say we are sorry vs. just going on about life as if we did nothing wrong?


#3. Jesus said in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would be able to see in Jonah 3:6-10 that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance) (See Jonah 3:8).
(b) Turn from their sins or evil ways (i.e. The Natural Fruits of Repentance).


#4. Matthew 3:6 (which then lines up with Matthew 3:8). Also, in Mark 1:4-5, it says John preached the "baptism of repentance" for the remission of sins (verse 4), and it then defines this "baptism of repentance" by saying they confessed their sins when they were baptized (verse 5).


#5. We see in Acts of the Apostles 8:22 a clear example of Peter telling Simon to "repent" of his wickedness in trying to pay for the Holy Spirit. Peter is telling Simon to make a prayer towards God. For Peter says that he should pray that God might forgive him. In other words, Peter is telling Simon to repent of a one time event of wickedness by way of prayer to GOD. This only makes sense if "repent" means to "ask for forgiveness."


#6. Ezekiel 14:6 says, "Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;" Repent makes the most sense here if a person is asking God for forgiveness by way of prayer instead of a person just believing in God. Naturally a person believes in God as their Savior if they are planning on forsaking their idols.


#7. We see repentance is the topic of discussion in Luke 15 (Luke 15:6) (Luke 15:10); This is then followed up by the "Parable of the Prodigal Son" with the son desiring to be reconciled with his father. We learn the WAY the Prodigal Son desired to be reconciled with his father when he said,

"I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants." (Luke 15:18-19).

In other words, the Prodigal Son was seeking forgiveness. This ties into the point of repentance in Luke 15:6 and Luke 15:10.


#8. Luke 10:13 says, "Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes." This rules out the theory that repentance is exclusively forsaking sin. Granted, forsaking sin always follows true repentance (Asking God for forgiveness of one's sins) but forsaking sin is not repentance. The word "repented" here is describing a one time event because they "repented", sitting in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:6 we learn that the King of Nineveh sat in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:8, the King of Nineveh tells people to put on sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God (i.e. repentance): and then turn from their evil way (i.e. the fruits of repentance).


#9. John the Baptist says we are to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Luke 3:8). Fruits are deeds (or obedience to God). How can repentance be the same thing as the fruit? Is the fruit the same thing as the tree?


#10. Jeremiah 8:6 says, "I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle." Here we see the word "repented of wickedness" tied with the words, "What have I done?" This is an acknowledgement of one's sin to God as a part of asking His forgiveness.



Notable Additional Verses that Deal with Repentance
(But They Do Not Use The Word "Repent" or "Repentance"):

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13).

13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:13-14).

Proverbs 28:13 says whosoever confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.
 
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18 If I say, I did not know the truth, and therefore I had license to sin willfully, will not God say that I willfully ignored the truth?

Again, Hebrews 10:26 is not dealing with an unbeliever who has encountered the truth for the first time with him (or her) rejecting that truth. Hebrews 10:26 is talking exclusively to believers.

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," (Hebrews 10:26).

An unbeliever who hears the gospel and rejects it has not received the knowledge of the truth but they have rejected it. Hebrews 10:26 also uses the word "we" as in reference to himself (who is the author of the book of Hebrews). No believer writes from the perspective as an unbeliever. That would not make any sense.

You said:
19 Therefore in knowing the truth I become bound to righteousness and must not sin.

Knowing the truth about doing what is right and good and even doing righteousness does not mean one is bound to righteousness. Ezekiel 18:24 says that if a righteous man goes back to do iniquity again, all his previous righteousness shall not be remembered. If one was bound to righteousness, then surely Ezekiel 18:24 would not be possible. Ananais and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit and were killed by God. A great fear came upon the church and all who heard of this. Why would believers fear for other believers who were saved? Scripture teaches that to live is Christ and to die is gain. Death means we get to see Christ. So if a believer dies and is saved, other believers are not going to feel the emotion of fear. Maybe they will feel sadness because they will not be with them for a long while, but they would not feel fear. If Ananias and Sapphira were fakes that God destroyed, then why would the true believer be in fear over this? Again, it would not make any sense. In other words, the punishment of Ananias and Sapphira proves that we as believers are not bound by righteousness.

We have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).
But you think the word "fear" means something else even though the word "trembling" is in there confirming that "fear" means "fear."

You said:
20 And yet this is to speak in human terms because of the weakness of the flesh. The truth of the matter is that I am no longer a slave but a son.

Yet, Scripture says we are slaves or servants to God.

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." (Romans 6:22 NIV).

Scripture also says that while we are set free from sin, we have become slaves (servants) to righteousness.

"You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness." (Romans 6:18 NIV).

For we are to present our bodies as a living sacrifice unto God.

1 "Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.
2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will." (Romans 12:1-2).

Also, just because somebody is a son of God, does not mean they cannot later become lost or to die spiritually. In the Parable of the Prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32): We learn that when the prodigal son came home to his father (with him desiring to repent) from living a life of sin, the father said that his son was "dead" and is "alive again" two times. He said that his son was "lost" and is "found." This of course is speaking in spiritual terms. So just because you are a son does not mean you cannot be lost and or to die spiritually. If this was not the case, then the Parable of the Prodigal Son would be misleading and or gibberish non-sense.
 
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21 If I focus on what seems to contradict, the gospel may fail to have its effect.

The Lord our God is a God of order and not disorder.
For the Scriptures say that God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33).

You said:
But if I receive the message as a whole, salvation will be wrought in me, and sin will be eradicated as a practice from my life. Matthew 1:21, 1 John 3:5-9.

First, how is that working out for you? Is sin truly eradicated from your life?
My guess is that would be a .... "no."

Second, when you read Matthew 1:21, you also have to read the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5, Matthew 6, and Matthew 7. In Matthew 6:15, it says that if a person does not forgive they will not be forgiven. In Matthew 5:28-30, it says that if a person looks upon a woman in lust their whole body can be cast into hell fire. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus says to the believer who works iniquity to depart from Him. When you read 1 John 3:5-9, you also have to focus on 1 John 3:8, 1 John 3:10, and 1 John 3:15. He that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8). He that does not righteousness is not of God (1 John 3:10). He that hates his brother is like a murderer and no eternal life abides within him (1 John 3:15).
 
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Also, in Matthew 1:21, it says,

"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." (Matthew 1:21).

Notice that the verse says that Jesus will save his people FROM their sins.
It doesn't say that Jesus will save his people IN their sins.

Yes, Scripture says that Christ died for us while we were yet sinners (Romans 5:8), but this is in reference to Him paying the price for every man's sin so as to offer him the free gift of salvation.

Romans 13:14 says put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ and do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. 1 John 3:8 says that Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. This would be the works of the devil within a person's life.
 
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I mean, stop and think for a second.

Jude 1:4 NIV warns about those who turn God's grace into a license for immorality.

Whether these are believers or not does not change anything. For if Jude 1:4 is talking about unbelievers than why would Jude 1:4 condemn a belief that sounds a lot like what "sin and still be saved" type believers promote? Is not saying, "I am saved even if I break God's laws" a license for immorality on some level? I would say... "yes." Even if one believed in Sinless Perfection (or overcoming sin) it would not matter because the foundation of the belief is rotten because it justifies sin or wrong doing on some level. God is holy and good and He can no more agree with a believer's sin or wrong doing so as to save him than for rain not to be wet.

But what about Jesus dying for the sins of the world?
Is not Jesus condoning evil by doing this?
No. They are not saved yet. Their sins are paid for on a provisional basis. If they accept His free love gift, then they are forgiven. If they reject Him, then their sins will be held to their charge or account because God will judge every man according to his deeds. For God is not a respecter of persons (See Romans 2).
 
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22 He is able to make me holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight—and is it not true that He sees and knows all? Colossians 1:22,

Colossians 1:21-23 says,
21 "And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;"

Did you catch what it said?

He can present us holy, and unblameable in his sight if we continue in the faith grounded and not moved away from the hope of the gospel.

Romans 15:18-19 says,
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ has not accomplished through me, in word and deed, to make the Gentiles obedient —
19 in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that from Jerusalem and round about to Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. NKJV

Romans 1:16-17 says,
16 “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."


What is this faith look like?

James 2:17
“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.”

James 2:24
“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”

James 2:18
“shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”

Hebrews 9:14
“How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God.”

Titus 3:8
“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.”

1 John 1:7
“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”
 
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justbyfaith

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Again, Hebrews 10:26 is not dealing with an unbeliever who has encountered the truth for the first time with him (or her) rejecting that truth. Hebrews 10:26 is talking exclusively to believers.

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," (Hebrews 10:26).

An unbeliever who hears the gospel and rejects it has not received the knowledge of the truth but they have rejected it. Hebrews 10:26 also uses the word "we" as in reference to himself (who is the author of the book of Hebrews). No believer writes from the perspective as an unbeliever. That would not make any sense.



Knowing the truth about doing what is right and good and even doing righteousness does not mean one is bound to righteousness. Ezekiel 18:24 says that if a righteous man goes back to do iniquity again, all his previous righteousness shall not be remembered. If one was bound to righteousness, then surely Ezekiel 18:24 would not be possible. Ananais and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit and were killed by God. A great fear came upon the church and all who heard of this. Why would believers fear for other believers who were saved? Scripture teaches that to live is Christ and to die is gain. Death means we get to see Christ. So if a believer dies and is saved, other believers are not going to feel the emotion of fear. Maybe they will feel sadness because they will not be with them for a long while, but they would not feel fear. If Ananias and Sapphira were fakes that God destroyed, then why would the true believer be in fear over this? Again, it would not make any sense. In other words, the punishment of Ananias and Sapphira proves that we as believers are not bound by righteousness.

We have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).
But you think the word "fear" means something else even though the word "trembling" is in there confirming that "fear" means "fear."



Yet, Scripture says we are slaves or servants to God.

"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." (Romans 6:22 NIV).

Scripture also says that while we are set free from sin, we have become slaves (servants) to righteousness.

"You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness." (Romans 6:18 NIV).

For we are to present our bodies as a living sacrifice unto God.

1 "Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.
2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will." (Romans 12:1-2).

Also, just because somebody is a son of God, does not mean they cannot later become lost or to die spiritually. In the Parable of the Prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32): We learn that when the prodigal son came home to his father (with him desiring to repent) from living a life of sin, the father said that his son was "dead" and is "alive again" two times. He said that his son was "lost" and is "found." This of course is speaking in spiritual terms. So just because you are a son does not mean you cannot be lost and or to die spiritually. If this was not the case, then the Parable of the Prodigal Son would be misleading and or gibberish non-sense.

I think you have misunderstood what I mean by "bound to righteousness and must not sin." It means that, from the perspective of being a slave, we must not sin lest the sacrifice of the Cross be of no avail in our lives, e.g. Freedom 2:15.

As for Freedom 2:20, it is substantiated by Romans 6:19, which is the context of a verse that you have quoted, and Galatians 4:7. The Bible is a progressive revelation. Therefore Galatians 4:7 interprets Romans 6:18 and Romans 6:22.

Also, John 11:25-27 is not speaking merely in the physical sense, but primarily in the spiritual. "He who lives and believes in me shall never die" If this is in the physical, then no believers would have died throughout the centuries, and yet all of them did. This is speaking of spiritual life and death. Which does not mean there is no danger of spiritual death. James 1:15 tells us of the fact that if sin gets its way in you and becomes fully grown in you, you will die spiritually. But John 11:25-27 would teach us that if someone is truly spiritually alive and believes in Jesus, i.e. they desire to obey the Lord and have put their faith in Him to keep them (see also 1 Peter 1:5), sin cannot ever become fully grown and then produce spiritual death. For this to work you have to be aware of the danger; but if you are aware of the danger you do not have to be in an unhealthy fear of losing your salvation for He promises to keep you as long as you have a healthy fear that keeps you from going down the wrong path. Jeremiah 32:38-40 brings balance in the eternal security debate in my impaho.
 
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justbyfaith

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Colossians 1:21-23 says,
21 "And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;"

Did you catch what it said?

He can present us holy, and unblameable in his sight if we continue in the faith grounded and not moved away from the hope of the gospel.

Romans 15:18-19 says,
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ has not accomplished through me, in word and deed, to make the Gentiles obedient —
19 in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that from Jerusalem and round about to Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. NKJV

Romans 1:16-17 says,
16 “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."


What is this faith look like?

James 2:17
“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.”

James 2:24
“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”

James 2:18
“shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”

Hebrews 9:14
“How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God.”

Titus 3:8
“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.”

1 John 1:7
“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”
Yes. In Freedom I do not deny but affirm that works are the result of a living faith.
 
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justbyfaith

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But I fear that I am losing people because most don't have the inclination to study it out. If they do they will see that I am right.

I would also say again that Freedom 2:23-24 is a crux and a defense against your attacks on this document. For you are saying that I am preaching grace as a license for sinning which I do not do in the whole of the document. Don't you see that I am fishing with this thing? People who believe in the beginnings of the document will read further and will not reject what is written further in. Except that may not happen now because the cat is out of the bag if they read thus far into this thread.

Don't you see that I begin with what is spoken in the Christian church and try to lead them into the truths that both you and I believe in? But in attacking this document you are stopping that from happening to a certain extent.

Also, it should be clear simply from the Holy Spirit that the motivation for righteousness is not fear of the condemnation of the law but because we become born again of the Holy Spirit and are changed from the inside out. See Galatians 3:24-25 and 1 John 4:18-19 and 2 Corinthians 5:17.

Now, I will stand by the notion that we are not condemned if we walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit, which is what the whole of the document teaches, compare 1:1-5 to 2:23-24. Compare these verses carefully and you will see that it is simply saying, "you must be born again; no one is justified by law-keeping but only faith in Jesus Christ will save you (see also Galatians 2:16 and Romans 3:20-21).

Since you are adding works to the equation of your salvation, I have doubts about whether you truly are saved. That may be a violation of the rules but you have said that you will not report it and I say it because I care about you. There can be no law or rule that truly goes against the reality of love (Galatians 5:22-23) unless it is the wrong kind of law or rule (Psalms 94:20).

You can only be saved through faith in Jesus Christ. No amount of works will help in that reality. Works are the result of salvation not the cause. If you don't have works then faith is questionable. But if you are trusting that you are saved because you have done good works in your life then your faith is entirely misplaced and you will not go to heaven unless you repent and trust in Jesus Christ alone.
 
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Ever since I understood 1 John 1:8 as a reality, that I am a sinner saved by grace, I know it may seem strange to you, but I find that while I am not perfect, God is now more able to pinpoint sinful aspects of my life (on the inside, which I denied before; thinking for example that if I did not act on a sinful thought I was not sinning: now I see that the thought itself is sin) and deal with them by His Spirit so that I am now becoming more like Christ. Therefore I now believe that sinless perfection as a doctrine tends to keep people from being sanctified because they will not admit their sins lest they admit that they are also not saved, and therefore they cannot confess them because in doing so they would be seeking to be saved again rather than just restoring relationship.
 
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justbyfaith

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Do you believe that you lose your salvation if you sin until you confess it? It seems to me that this is a conclusion of what you have said you believe in. So that means if you sinned yesterday and didn't realize it, you have unconfessed sin in your life and are not saved.
 
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Ever since I understood 1 John 1:8 as a reality, that I am a sinner saved by grace, I know it may seem strange to you, but I find that while I am not perfect, God is now more able to pinpoint sinful aspects of my life (on the inside, which I denied before; thinking for example that if I did not act on a sinful thought I was not sinning: now I see that the thought itself is sin) and deal with them by His Spirit so that I am now becoming more like Christ. Therefore I now believe that sinless perfection as a doctrine tends to keep people from being sanctified because they will not admit their sins lest they admit that they are also not saved, and therefore they cannot confess them because in doing so they would be seeking to be saved again rather than just restoring relationship.

Does not 1 John 1:8 say that if we have no sin we deceive ourselves?

Answer: Well, what is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at it's immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 moves verse 8 (which is present tense) into a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned at some point in their life (Regardless of whether they are an OSAS believer or a Conditional Salvationist). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.
 
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Do you believe that you lose your salvation if you sin until you confess it? It seems to me that this is a conclusion of what you have said you believe in. So that means if you sinned yesterday and didn't realize it, you have unconfessed sin in your life and are not saved.

The Holy Spirit convicts even the world of sin (See John 16:8-9). Do you not think God does not convict believers of their sin?
God is for us and He is not against us.
However, that does not mean we can turn God's grace into a license for immorality (See again Jude 1:4).


Serious sin is separation from GOD:

[God said to Adam,]
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

[Eve said to the serpent,]
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Genesis 3:3).

And the serpent said unto the woman,
"Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

"...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked..." (Genesis 3:6-7).

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12).

"For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23).

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

“...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”
(Matthew 5:22).

28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)

Important Note: If you were to look at 1 Thessalonians 4:3 you would learn that the will of God (i.e. the Father) is to be holy or it is our sanctification; And Hebrews 12:14 says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

“22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV).

“26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
(Matthew 7:26-27).

“15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20).

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

"he that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

"everyone who does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).

"Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." (Acts of the Apostles 8:22).

6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43 ESV).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
(James 4:6).

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).

16 "There is a sin unto death..."
17 "...and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17).

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affe
ction, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).


5 “...God;
6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law” (Romans 2:5-12).
 
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23 If I relish a heart of disobedience after coming to the knowledge of the truth, I will find that I am still under the law, and am NOT dead to the law, and am NOT delivered from the law—I will find that the law condemns me as a sinner.

But are you not relishing disobedience by saying that you break God's laws and still be saved as some kind of safety net? For you think a little bit of disobedience or sin is okay with God vs. a lot of sin or disobedience. However, there is no difference. They are both a condoning of evil or immorality. God cannot agree with rewarding someone in doing evil. God is good; He is not evil.

As for the phrase: Under the Law made by Paul:

If you were to do a keyword search using the words "under law" at BlueLetterBible, you will see that the Law is in reference to the "Old Law" and not "all law."

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

Just read the surrounding context and it becomes clear.

You said:
24 But if my heart is a heart of obedience, condemnation is for me an impossibility.

25 Did not Jesus say, “I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish; neither can anyone pluck them out of my hand”?

26 Therefore do not throw away your confidence which hath great recompence of reward; for we are His house if we hold fast to the confidence and rejoicing of hope firm unto the end.

27 Nevertheless it is ordained by the Lord that eternal security is predicated on the body of Christ working together to keep every member in the safe zone so that they will not fall away.

28 So exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin; towards departing from the living God because of an evil heart of unbelief.

So you believe it takes lots of sin only so as to cause a believer to depart from the living God and not just one or two sins? What about king David? Did not David need to repent (ask God for forgiveness in Psalms 51) for his sins of adultery and murder?

You said:
29 The foundation of the Lord stands strong in these two things: The Lord knows the ones who are His; and, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

But you are not teaching that we are to depart from iniquity because you said we can sin and still be saved. So what you are teaching here is a contradiction or an oxymoron.

You said:
30 Therefore if any man desires assurance of salvation, let him live a holy life.

31 And the root of all true holiness is faith in Jesus Christ and His shed blood on the Cross of Calvary.

While it is true that one cannot live holy without having faith in Jesus Christ. They have to be willing to allow Christ to transform their life. It is easy to do a salvation prayer and believe Jesus died and was raised on our behalf. But it is hard to forsake our life and follow Jesus. For he that shall love his life shall lose it and he that shall lose his life for Christ's sake shall find it. So it is more than just having a belief alone. We have to be willing to follow Jesus after coming to Him in faith.
 
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justbyfaith

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@Jason0047, when is the last time you sinned? I would say that I have seen you sin in only the past week. Do you know, and are you aware of, how you have sinned? I am not going to tell you because you are trusting God to tell you. Until then, you are not saved according to your own doctrine because you have unconfessed sin. If you say that you haven't sinned for the last five years then that would be in alignment with your doctrine; but it would also mean that since you have sinned many times without knowing it, there is much unconfessed sin in your life and you may not ever be able to catch up by confessing all of it. Also, have you confessed all of the sins you committed before you were a Christian? If you didn't upon conversion, how were you forgiven? Do you know that you are forgiven, if you are forgiven? Or do you suspect there might be an unconfessed sin somewhere so that you don't know that you have eternal life?
 
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justbyfaith

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I would just encourage the reader to read often, and to understand, the document Freedom. I am not going to defend it anymore because it defends itself. And I pray also that God will defend it. The one who is seeking to destroy it (see John 10:10) is using someone who believes that works enter into the equation of what saves us. I can do many good works and they are only outward actions that do not produce an inward reality. Only faith in Christ can produce an inward reality of salvation, whether works result or don't result. And a person can also have works and not have the inward reality. I leave you with Matthew 7:1-6 and Luke 6:41-42. This is what I believe is happening with @Jason0047. He sees a mote in my doctrinal statement but there is a beam in his eye concerning his own doctrine.
 
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When is the last time you sinned? I would say that I have seen you sin in only the past week. Do you know, and are you aware of, how you have sinned? I am not going to tell you because you are trusting God to tell you. Until then, you are not saved according to your own doctrine because you have unconfessed sin. If you say that you haven't sinned for the last five years then that would be in alignment with your doctrine; but it would also mean that since you have sinned many times without knowing it, there is much unconfessed sin in your life and you may not ever be able to catch up by confessing all of it. Also, have you confessed all of the sins you committed before you were a Christian? If you didn't upon conversion, how were you forgiven? Do you know that you are forgiven, if you are forgiven? Or do you suspect there might be an unconfessed sin somewhere so that you don't know that you have eternal life?

CF thread rules tell you to address the topic of the thread and not the poster.
The Scriptures are true regardless of whether nobody obeys or not.
Remember, only Noah and his family were spared.

Anyways, for your information: I do not believe that having not reached a state of Sinless Perfection is a salvation issue. However, that does not mean believers can abide in serious unrepentant sin like hate, lying, and looking upon others in lust. Serious unrepentant sin always leads to death.

Paul says,
"But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." (1 Corinthians 9:27).
 
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Then let the questions be rhetorical. My guess is that your doctrine has no basis in reality if you bring it down home to the heart...I would say to you what my mother said to me once: that if you are preaching something there will be no power behind it unless you live it first.
 
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