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I said DOESN'T exist.Take some time and explain how each one denies free will.
This is a really useful thought-provoking post however, I'm not convinced its nesessarily the system being determined by 'the future'. More like; there is additional information (previously unobserved) produced by the system, which:Consider for a moment that determinism tells us that if we know the state of a system at any point in time, then we can predict the state of that system at any other point in time. Specifically, the state of the system in the past determines the state of the system in the future. It's a simple enough concept, and one that seems to completely disallow free will. But there's something absolutely bizarre that happens once a system becomes conscious, because then the state of the system isn't just determined by its past, it's also determined by its future. How the system could be actually becomes a factor in how the system will be. That's bizarre, the future of the system actually becomes a factor in determining the future of the system.
Just let that idea sink in for a moment, that what "could be" actually becomes a factor in determining what "will be". But there are so many different things that "could be", so how does determinism then explain what "will be" if there are so many different things that "could be"? It would seem that the only way that it can possibly do this is through the influence of that conscious agent. Even if the system is still deterministic it's still the conscious agent that decides what "will be" out of all the possibilities that "could be".
'The future' is key to your thoughts there. What 'the future is', depends on your own past knowledge and your personal experiences in aquiring that knowledge.partinobodycular said:Now I have to admit that I have never thought of this before, and so it's quite possible that I simply haven't thought it through sufficiently enough. But it seems to me that once the system becomes conscious such that the future becomes a factor in how the system evolves then the conscious agent has to play a role in that evolution because it's the only means by which the future can have an influence on the present.
The influence there, surely comes about by the way the conscious agent realises 'what the future will be', as I don't think been excluded in your analysis .. yet(?)partinobodycular said:Somewhere in this mess lies the groundwork for free will, that once the future begins to influence the present the conscious agent becomes the means by which that influence is expressed.
Its a useful contribution though .. certainly made me think about it.partinobodycular said:I realize that this is crazy, but this is what happens when the voices in my head just won't shut up. Anyway, just food for thought.
I said DOESN'T exist.
These things are products of freewill.
This is a really useful thought-provoking post however, I'm not convinced its nesessarily the system being determined by 'the future'. More like; there is additional information (previously unobserved) produced by the system, which:
- updates the conscious agent's own decisions about to how extract further useful information from the system under study;
- updates the agent's own expectations of what to expect and;
- feeds into the agent's desires to draw inferences about other examinable system behaviours.
Notice that 'the future of the system' is thus actually deduced from information produced by its own past behaviours, (eg: via probabilities).
I'd agree that its a conscious agent also making the deductions based on the outcomes there, as well as making prior decisions about how to set up the experiment in order to produce consistently meaningful results, so there's still those two major active roles being played by the agent.
'The future' is key to your thoughts there. What 'the future is', depends on your own past knowledge and your personal experiences in aquiring that knowledge.
The influence there, surely comes about by the way the conscious agent realises 'what the future will be', as I don't think been excluded in your analysis .. yet(?)
Its a useful contribution though .. certainly made me think about it.
Ya -- I'll get right on it, chief.Feel free to give us your reason for each one. But perhaps best if you give your definition of free will first so we're all on the same page.
Ya -- I'll get right on it, chief.
Is that why you're an atheist?There appear be many varieties.
My "Christian take on reality" is that it encompasses all of reality.If you cannot or are unwilling to answer then maybe just don't write anything
No biggie.Understatement.
Ok .. so my future is subjective and so too, is everyone else's and therefore, the future itself, is also subjective .. (and thereby, not predetermined independently in any way other than by those collective, subjectively minded viewpoints).I thought there might have been something there. But...the future is always considered when making a conscious choice. Do I turn right or left? Well I know turning left gets me where I want to go quicker. So my future is getting there earlier. I've made my decision based on what I think the future holds.
But if I know there are road works then my future, as I understand it at the time, is different. And if the current situation is made up of those different circumstances then the decision would always be made in respect of them.
What 'the future holds' is comprised of collectively subjective viewpoints and isn't some 'thing', which exists truly independently, from those above-mentioned collective, subjectively minded viewpoints. 'What the future holds' however, can be objectively tested by like-thinking minds.Bradskii said:So the future doesn't guide our choices. It's what we think the future holds. And that's all part of the circumstances under which we make decisions. And if we repeat them exactly, then we'd make the same ones.
Is that why you're an atheist?
If so, what about the total consensus of opinion* from every Christian who ever lived, alive today, and will be alive tomorrow?
If not, do you think you're making a point bringing it up?
* IN THE BEGINNING, GOD
Ok .. so my future is subjective and so too, is everyone else's and therefore, the future itself, is also subjective ..
So?I'm bringing it up because, for example, you and any other randomly selected Christian on this site will have vastly different outlooks on life.
What gave you that impression?So now you've been made aware that there isn't a generic Christian pov when it comes to matters arising in this thread.
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