Free Will

[Harlan Norris]

I've heard that God knows everything, which would include everything that's going to happen to you. God isn't wrong. So how can you stop something from happening that's going to happen? Do you have free will to do that?

No.

 

[Robinsegg]

Please expand on your idea of non-linear time.

If God created time, He cannot be subject to it. He exists outside linear time, because He created it.
Thusly, perhaps God can exist in all points of time simultaneously, while interacting with us inside linear time.

I can't say I truly understand the concept, but it is one that's growing on me and I'm exploring.

Rachel

 

[levi501]

lol, freewill discussions pwn most christians.

God has a time machine people! duh!

 

[elman]

removing God from the equation and I believe we still arrive at the same place. an absence of free will.

using the red and yellow car as an example it seems obvious to me that the choice was already made in the person's mind before entering buying. no human action is spontaneous. all human action requires previous actions to control and determine future outcomes.

no person has any freedom of choice. all we have is an unknown future with unknown destinations. it is this lack of foreknowledge that creates an illusion of free will and of freedom in general.


does that make any sense?

Remove God and you remove any knowledge of the future, thus no problem with free will. It is not the world we observe to say we do not have any freedom of choice.

 

[elman]

Experiencing timelessly would exclude things like "wanting something", to begin with.

We are not able to know what not being subject to time is and therefore we are unable to know it would exclude anything.

 

[RealityCheck]

God knows all the possible choices and resulting outcomes for everyone throughout time. The thinking so far in the thread is linear to time, something God is not bound by. God can know what you will choose and yet it is still your choice.

This does not work.

The only way God could know what your choice will be is if God determined what your choice would be.

How is it possible that anything happens in the universe that is not under God's direct control?

 

[quatona]

We are not able to know what not being subject to time is

So it means nothing if you say it, and I better ignore this claim?

and therefore we are unable to know it would exclude anything.

Sure we are able. If a being experiences everything as being simultaneously now (which is your claim), and if it does not experience things as passing, it cannot experience past and future, and it cannot experience anything that is directed to this future that doesn´t exist in the absence of time experience. It cannot hope, for example. It cannot experience motion, it cannot experience change.

 

[elman]

This does not work.

The only way God could know what your choice will be is if God determined what your choice would be.

How is it possible that anything happens in the universe that is not under God's direct control?

If a loving God is controling everything then the presence of evil means God did it and therefore God is evil. I don't think so. I think God is good. Perhaps God knows what your choice will be before you make it. It being impossible for you to understand how He does that is not relevant since you and I cannot understand many things about God.

 

[quatona]

If God created time, He cannot be subject to it. He exists outside linear time, because He created it.

What the heck is "linear" time? Is there an unlinear time, too?

Thusly, perhaps God can exist in all points of time simultaneously, while interacting with us inside linear time.

"Acting in the absence" of time is a non-concept.

 

[elman]

Sure we are able. If a being experiences everything as being simultaneously now (which is your claim), and if it does not experience things as passing, it cannot experience past and future, and it cannot experience anything that is directed to this future that doesn´t exist in the absence of time experience. It cannot hope, for example. It cannot experience motion, it cannot experience change.

We don't know if God experiences things simultaneonously or passing or some other way. If God experiences everything simultaneously, then he would be able to experience what is past and future to us although it is not to Him. I would say He can experience anything He wants to experience and your assumptions that He cannot would be unsuportable.

 

[elman]

What the heck is "linear" time? Is there an unlinear time, too?


"Acting in the absence" of time is a non-concept.

How about outside of or not in subjection to time? Is that a non-concept? What is a non concept? One you cannot understand?

 

[quatona]

We don't know if God experiences things simultaneonously or passing or some other way. If God experiences everything simultaneously, then he would be able to experience what is past and future to us although it is not to Him.
I would say He can experience anything

No, he cannot experience within time and not within time.
He wants to experience and your assumptions that He cannot would be unsuportable.[/quote]
My conclusion from your premise follows the most basic rule of logic. You cannot eat the cookie and have it, too.

 

[RealityCheck]

If a loving God is controling everything then the presence of evil means God did it and therefore God is evil. I don't think so. I think God is good. Perhaps God knows what your choice will be before you make it. It being impossible for you to understand how He does that is not relevant since you and I cannot understand many things about God.

Even the Bible states that God created and creates evil.

 

[quatona]

How about outside of or not in subjection to time? Is that a non-concept? What is a non concept? One you cannot understand?

A non-concept is a sequence of words which the person speaking himself does not understand, or even introduces as impossible to understand.

 

[quatona]

How about outside of or not in subjection to time? Is that a non-concept?

Yes, "acting outside or not in subjection to time" is nonsense.

 

[elman]

=quatona;29918483]No, he cannot experience within time and not within time.

Maybe He can

He wants to experience and your assumptions that He cannot would be unsuportable
My conclusion from your premise follows the most basic rule of logic. You cannot eat the cookie and have it, too

You cannot apply our human experience and logic to God. It is not transferable. Things that are impossible for us are not impossible for HIm.

 

[elman]

Yes, "acting outside or not in subjection to time" is nonsense.

Meaning you don't understand it, nothing more.

 

[elman]

A non-concept is a sequence of words which the person speaking himself does not understand, or even introduces as impossible to understand.

I think a better term would be a concept that is not understood by anyone involved.

 

[quatona]

Meaning you don't understand it, nothing more.

No, it means that it is logically impossible.

 

[elman]

Even the Bible states that God created and creates evil.

When the Bible says that it is not talking about being unloving. It is talking about disasters from weather etc. If in fact the Bible says God is morally evil, then the Bible is wrong abour that. The Bible says God is good and Jesus said God is Good and that I believe to be true. One cannot be absolutely good and also be evil.