I've heard that God knows everything, which would include everything that's going to happen to you. God isn't wrong. So how can you stop something from happening that's going to happen? Do you have free will to do that?
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Free Will
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I have a belief that god and fate are seperate.
Fate is a web tangled paths that criss cross and intersect. A choice one makes will determine the overall path one takes but once that path begins then theres no getting off.
For instance talking to a person form the first time. however there is always more than one path ahead of you and a multitude of outcomes, your actions determine how fate shapes up. but there are some things that just cant be changed!
Ultimately there are two certainties Birth and Death. what happens inbetween is subject to circumstance and choices.
Fate is a web tangled paths that criss cross and intersect. A choice one makes will determine the overall path one takes but once that path begins then theres no getting off.
For instance talking to a person form the first time. however there is always more than one path ahead of you and a multitude of outcomes, your actions determine how fate shapes up. but there are some things that just cant be changed!
Ultimately there are two certainties Birth and Death. what happens inbetween is subject to circumstance and choices.
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I have a belief that god and fate are seperate.
Fate is a web tangled paths that criss cross and intersect. A choice one makes will determine the overall path one takes but once that path begins then theres no getting off.
For instance talking to a person form the first time. however there is always more than one path ahead of you and a multitude of outcomes, your actions determine how fate shapes up. but there are some things that just cant be changed!
Ultimately there are two certainties Birth and Death. what happens inbetween is subject to circumstance and choices.
Lets say that, in the future, a guy has a choice to buy a red car or to buy a yellow car and God knows he's going to choose to buy the red car. When the time comes, does the guy have free will to choose to buy the yellow car?
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There is no freewill...
So how can a just God punish us for what we have no control over?
He doesn't.
We all go to the same place when we die.
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God knowing what you are going to chose to do does not change it from you chosing to do to God chosing to make you do it.
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Yes but if he buys the yellow car then God would not have known he would buy the red car. God would have known he was going to buy the yellow car. God never knows ahead of time he is going to chose the red car if he is not going to chose the red car. God knows ahead of time which he will chose weather it is red or yellow.
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selfinflikted
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That just doesn't make sense. If the outcome is known before the decision is made, then the decision itself is not the result of "free will". It's either that, or god doesn't actually know a thing.
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selfinflikted
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I just can't wrap my head around that. I'll just take your word for it
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gengwall
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God created everything in our space time dimensions from outside of them. Therefore, He is not bound by either our space or time (actually, He is not bound by any space and time). So, God actually knows "the end of the story" as it were for every person. But we write the story.I just can't wrap my head around that. I'll just take your word for it
That doesn't mean that everything is set in stone and it is useless for us to even try to live. The story is constantly changing as we excersize our will. God can even be solicited and bargained with so that outcomes can be changed. Such a change instantaneously reshuffles the deck of the future but God still knows what the end looks like.
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Or He knows ahead of time what you are going to do even though you don't know what you are going to do. Of course that makes no sense to you since you could not possibly do that.
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There are two theories:
1. God knows all possibilities.
2. God is in all points of history simultaneously (outside of linear time).
I personally believe the second. Either way, God knows.
Rachel
1. God knows all possibilities.
2. God is in all points of history simultaneously (outside of linear time).
I personally believe the second. Either way, God knows.
Rachel
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The God would know but the man would not and so the element of doubt is still in the mans mind, whats more the god would only know that there is a possibility that the man would choose the red car . . . a god does not control fate but can influence it
. fate is subject to circumstance and im sure all knowing beings could see that?There is no freewill...
So how can a just God punish us for what we have no control over?
He doesn't.
We all go to the same place when we die.
Im not
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God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son. The guy so loved the red car that he just HAD to buy it.
You can't be someone you're not!
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If God so wanted someone, who would choose to make him choose to make them do it, then he would create someone like that.
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Allister
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removing God from the equation and I believe we still arrive at the same place. an absence of free will.
using the red and yellow car as an example it seems obvious to me that the choice was already made in the person's mind before entering buying. no human action is spontaneous. all human action requires previous actions to control and determine future outcomes.
no person has any freedom of choice. all we have is an unknown future with unknown destinations. it is this lack of foreknowledge that creates an illusion of free will and of freedom in general.
does that make any sense?
using the red and yellow car as an example it seems obvious to me that the choice was already made in the person's mind before entering buying. no human action is spontaneous. all human action requires previous actions to control and determine future outcomes.
no person has any freedom of choice. all we have is an unknown future with unknown destinations. it is this lack of foreknowledge that creates an illusion of free will and of freedom in general.
does that make any sense?
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bob135
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I understand "timeless" to mean time-independent. This means that the truth of a statement like "it is snowing in Chicago on December 18, 1956" has nothing to do with time. It doesn't matter what time it is, time doesn't even need to exist, for you evaluate the truth of "it is snowing in Chicago on December 18, 1956." So, for God to know (timelessly) that "it is snowing in Chicago on December 18, 1956" is the same as saying "today is December 1, 1900, and it is snowing in Chicago on December 18, 1956" or "today is December 19, 2006, and it is snowing in Chicago on December 18, 1956." The point is that timeless truth, for our purposes, is exactly the same as necessary truth.
I am trying to illustrate the link between God's knowledge and the events in our universe. To use the car example, God knows timelessly that this guy will choose the red car. This mean that the day before the guy chooses, it is true that he chooses the red car tomorrow. If thats not determinism, I don't know what is.
Suppose God sent you a fax, detailing your entire life, and how it would play out. It would have every little detail: when you would get up in the morning, when you would look at the list, how angry the list might make you, and so on. How could you reasonably argue that you had free will, if you couldn't ignore a list? Would it be reasonable to say that you could actually disobey the list, and God would have to come down and say "sorry my knowledge was wrong, let me fix that"? If you disobeyed the list, would it actually change while you were looking at it? How does this make sense?
Of course, he doesn't actually have to send you the list. If you buy the idea that something like the list would prove you didn't have free will, then he only needs the potential to send you the list, since the list always exists in his head.
I am trying to illustrate the link between God's knowledge and the events in our universe. To use the car example, God knows timelessly that this guy will choose the red car. This mean that the day before the guy chooses, it is true that he chooses the red car tomorrow. If thats not determinism, I don't know what is.
Suppose God sent you a fax, detailing your entire life, and how it would play out. It would have every little detail: when you would get up in the morning, when you would look at the list, how angry the list might make you, and so on. How could you reasonably argue that you had free will, if you couldn't ignore a list? Would it be reasonable to say that you could actually disobey the list, and God would have to come down and say "sorry my knowledge was wrong, let me fix that"? If you disobeyed the list, would it actually change while you were looking at it? How does this make sense?
Of course, he doesn't actually have to send you the list. If you buy the idea that something like the list would prove you didn't have free will, then he only needs the potential to send you the list, since the list always exists in his head.
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Has everyone really considered all the implications of the idea that god experiences timelessly? In view of other basic aspects of the Christian god concept I highly doubt that.
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