Free Will

[elman]

No, it means that it is logically impossible.

OK God is not logically possible, and eternal is not logically possible as are many other concepts we work with. You and I have a difference of opinion as to wheather responsbility is logically possible don't we?

 

[quatona]

OK God is not logically possible,

Not?

and eternal is not logically possible

Not?

as are many other concepts we work with.

I don´t know that I work with concepts that directly violate the basic rules of logic. If anyone notices that I do, I would be thankful for being notified.

You and I have a difference of opinion as to wheather responsbility is logically possible don't we?

As long as I do not even know what exactly "responsibility" is supposed to be, I cannot make any statement about its logical possibility.

Acting in the absence of time is like moving in the absence of space. Both are nonsense .
Knowing something and not knowing it is impossible.
Whilst picturing god wanting and hoping for something he knows that it is not (and, from our perspective in time, won´t happen in the future), means picturing him as incredibly stupid.

 

[Space]

Maybe He can
You cannot apply our human experience and logic to God. It is not transferable. Things that are impossible for us are not impossible for HIm.

That would mean he's not confined to be the God that the Bible says he must be. He can be a different God then the God the Bible says he must be and still be perfect and holy!

 

[elman]

That would mean he's not confined to be the God that the Bible says he must be. He can be a different God then the God the Bible says he must be and still be perfect and holy!

God is not fully contained in any book or understanding of Him.

 

[DiscardedTruths]

If God knows exactly what will happen, then aren't we bound to follow that? It is the illusion of free will because we feel in control because the future is unknown to us.
What is the difference between free will and just will?

 

[RealityCheck]

If God knows exactly what will happen, then aren't we bound to follow that? It is the illusion of free will because we feel in control because the future is unknown to us.

Exactly - well stated. We are bound to do exactly as God knows we will do, because to do otherwise would violate God's omniscience.

Elman, I know you and i have discussed this before, but I posted this elsewhere in a different form, I'd challenge you to think this through as well. It's a little thought exercise.

Pretend that you are God - all seeing, all knowing, all powerful. You know everything past, present, future, and you can arrange things exactly the way you want. Because, after all, that's what being God is.

Now, you're about to create the physical universe and prepare for mankind. You take a peek down the future of mankind. Ooops... looks like the very first one is going to disobey you. Is that what you want to have happen? Now think carefully. You know that Adam is going to disobey you, and is going to pick fruit off the tree of knowledge. What should you do? Perhaps you can change the design of Adam such that he will choose differently. Perhaps you can not put the tree there in his reach. But whatever you decide to do, you have the power and complete control to make things happen exactly the way you want them to happen. Remember, you are all powerful. If you don't want Adam to disobey you, you can make and arrange things so that will not happen. But here's the thing - if you do NOT do that, and you choose instead to let it stand, then that must also be what you want. Everything in the universe does exactly what you want it to do. So if Adam picks that fruit and eats it, it must be because you wanted him to in the first place - you wanted that to be the outcome. It is not possible to be omnipotent, and yet exert no influence over even one thing. All things are in your control.

 

[Robinsegg]

What the heck is "linear" time? Is there an unlinear time, too?

I'm not sure I'll be able to give you a clear answer on this. You see, I believe that God existed and then time was created. He created it. He existed before time began and will exist when time is no more. He simply is. However, there's also a component to that which touches on His omniscience, the fact that He knows everything, including the future. He created time for us, not for Himself.

"Acting in the absence" of time is a non-concept.

I'm not sure what you mean by that? Are you saying no action can happen w/o time? If so, I serve a God who created the laws of physics and is not controlled by them.

Rachel

 

[Robinsegg]

Sure we are able. If a being experiences everything as being simultaneously now (which is your claim), and if it does not experience things as passing, it cannot experience past and future, and it cannot experience anything that is directed to this future that doesn´t exist in the absence of time experience. It cannot hope, for example. It cannot experience motion, it cannot experience change.

I don't remember any Christian or Jew ever stating that God changes. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure Christian teaching says He does not change. God does not hope, He knows.

Rachel

 

[Robinsegg]

No, it means that it is logically impossible.

Logic fails when speaking of God. He says that He makes fools of the wise, but the foolish gain His wisdom. Some things are spiritually discerned and cannot be understood with the human mind w/o the help of the Holy Spirit.

Rachel

 

[Robinsegg]

Exactly - well stated. We are bound to do exactly as God knows we will do, because to do otherwise would violate God's omniscience.

Elman, I know you and i have discussed this before, but I posted this elsewhere in a different form, I'd challenge you to think this through as well. It's a little thought exercise.

Pretend that you are God - all seeing, all knowing, all powerful. You know everything past, present, future, and you can arrange things exactly the way you want. Because, after all, that's what being God is.

Now, you're about to create the physical universe and prepare for mankind. You take a peek down the future of mankind. Ooops... looks like the very first one is going to disobey you. Is that what you want to have happen? Now think carefully. You know that Adam is going to disobey you, and is going to pick fruit off the tree of knowledge. What should you do? Perhaps you can change the design of Adam such that he will choose differently. Perhaps you can not put the tree there in his reach. But whatever you decide to do, you have the power and complete control to make things happen exactly the way you want them to happen. Remember, you are all powerful. If you don't want Adam to disobey you, you can make and arrange things so that will not happen. But here's the thing - if you do NOT do that, and you choose instead to let it stand, then that must also be what you want. Everything in the universe does exactly what you want it to do. So if Adam picks that fruit and eats it, it must be because you wanted him to in the first place - you wanted that to be the outcome. It is not possible to be omnipotent, and yet exert no influence over even one thing. All things are in your control.

I like your analogy! Here's the thing: While God knew what Adam would do, He wanted love and obedience. Obedience is a farce when there is no other choice available. Though God knew what would happen, and how He would give mankind another chance, He still didn't want robots, but people with the choice to love an obey Him.

The point isn't that God wanted sin to enter the world. The point is that God wanted us to have a choice whether to sin or to obey. He wants love. Everyone will eventually see Him as He is, and worship Him. But He wants us to have the choice, first.

Rachel

 

[RealityCheck]

I don't remember any Christian or Jew ever stating that God changes. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure Christian teaching says He does not change. God does not hope, He knows.

Rachel

Just a quick question - are you a Calvinst? Do you believe in pre-destination? Because according to your statement above, you can't possibly believe in free will, or that we all "choose" to follow Jesus or not follow Jesus.

 

[DiscardedTruths]

The point isn't that God wanted sin to enter the world. The point is that God wanted us to have a choice whether to sin or to obey. He wants love. Everyone will eventually see Him as He is, and worship Him. But He wants us to have the choice, first.

Rachel

A geniune choice would have been for your God to show himself to everyone--so we would all know that Your God is real. Then if we had choosen to sin and disobey God--that would be more reasonable.
But what we have is a world that does not support a sentient omni-max God, and a plethora of other religions that conflict with your God.

 

[quatona]

I'm not sure I'll be able to give you a clear answer on this.

I suspected so, to be honest.

You see, I believe that God existed and then time was created. He created it. He existed before time began and will exist when time is no more.

"Before time" has no meaning. "Before" is a temporal term.

He simply is. However, there's also a component to that which touches on His omniscience, the fact that He knows everything, including the future. He created time for us, not for Himself.

Then every statement about god that implies anything temporal contradicts this assumption.

I'm not sure what you mean by that? Are you saying no action can happen w/o time?

Exactly.

If so, I serve a God who created the laws of physics and is not controlled by them.

I am not referring to a physical law. I am referring to the most basic logic that you violate.

 

[quatona]

I don't remember any Christian or Jew ever stating that God changes.

Indeed, they keep claiming that god doesn´t change, but at the same time keep describing him in in a way that requires change on his part.

As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure Christian teaching says He does not change. God does not hope, He knows.

That excludes any wantings and wishes, as well - which was my point.

 

[quatona]

Logic fails when speaking of God.

This is just another way of saying "I reserve the right to talk nonsense.".
If you want to suspend logic in our conversation, I think it would be fair to allow this to me, too. I personally am not so much into absurd conversations (although I like this element in art and poetry, sometimes), but it could be entertaining. I, for example, would be in favour of the idea that god exists and does not exist.
On another note, it would be a good idea to disclaim up front that you are willing to accept illogicalities in these discussions - so we don´t have to put so much effort in trying to be logical and pretending to value logic for a long time just to end up at illogical claims, anyways.

He says that He makes fools of the wise, but the foolish gain His wisdom.

It would be a reverse conclusion to assume that every foolish statement is a sign for divine wisdom, though.

Some things are spiritually discerned and cannot be understood with the human mind w/o the help of the Holy Spirit.

Then it seems like the Holy Spirit didn´t do his part in making illogical claims plausible to me.

 

[Robinsegg]

Just a quick question - are you a Calvinst? Do you believe in pre-destination? Because according to your statement above, you can't possibly believe in free will, or that we all "choose" to follow Jesus or not follow Jesus.

Nope, not Calvanist. I do believe God gives each of us the opportunity to choose for Him. Any other choice, including the choice not to choose, is a choice against Him.

Rachel

 

[Robinsegg]

I have an adult sister. She's been making some abominable choices in her life. Mom and Dad know what kind of choices she's been making and knew before she made them. They've tried to pursuade her to do differently, but she won't. They always hope she will make wise choices, but don't believe she will.

Now, God takes it a step further, as He really knows w/o doubt what will happen. But that doesn't mean He wants things to happen as they do. He mourns bad choices by all. Like us, He sometimes wants what He doesn't have. But he won't force anyone until death or the 2nd coming.

Rachel

 

[levi501]

lol. This threads hilarious.

QM discussions aside, can something uncaused happen?
Nope.
Therefor there's no freewill.
checkmate.