Free will/predestination

[Rick Otto]

I didn't say I liked it or not. I said a had a problem with Calvinism, as God has told us in His Word that He loves ALL or us. It is not a matter or liking it--it would be easy to go along, living my own life, doing as I want, and not have to worry about things like heaven or hell. But because we DO have free will, and can choose to love God or not, then we do have to live our lives for God, in order to get to heaven.

He has also mentioned hating someone.
That's why context is important.
"All" usually doesn't mean each and every individual in existence, rather those indicated by context.

The context ignored is the generally accepted notion at the time, that "salvation is of Israel" - for the chosen people only.
So "all" and even "the world" and "the nations" usually stands in contrast to "Israel only", it does not mean every created individual.

 

[Monk Brendan]

The implication being that they had a Bible in their possession.

If you meant they had it read to them, then say it.

The average person of that time, could bearly read.

I mean in this day and age.

 

[CodyFaith]

I agree that man has a "freewill".

I just disagree with the popular opinion on "free" the freewill is.

God Bless

Till all are one.

So you believe God creates people, who, not out of their own choices (my definition of free will - and the common one), deserve death because they were born evil?
They had absolutely no choice but to be evil, never?

Where's the justice in such beliefs? It's non-existent. God doesn't condemn innocent, and, if one didn't choose their path, they are innocent.

 

[Job8]

I'm kind of starting to believe that He predestined all who would be saved...

If that is indeed the case, then God also predestined others for Hell (and that would mean the bulk of humanity). Which is utter nonsense. You will not find a single Scripture to support such a travesty of God and God's grace.

I'm still not sure though I don't know what to believe and I can't accept the fact we don't have a free will

If human beings did not have free will, then the human race would have been perfect from the day Adam was created. If is precisely because man has free will that he is given commands and he is also given the consequences of disobedience. This is called the Law of Cause and Effect as well as the Law of Sowing and Reaping. Please note carefully what God said to Adam:

COMMANDMENT
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it:

CONSEQUENCES OF DISOBEDIENCE
for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Those who accept Reformed Theology claim that ever since Adam sinned, human beings lost their free will. The Bible refutes such nonsense (Joshua 24:15).

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So you believe God creates people, who, not out of their own choices (my definition of free will - and the common one), deserve death because they were born evil?
They had absolutely no choice but to be evil, never?

Where's the justice in such beliefs? It's non-existent. God doesn't condemn innocent, and, if one didn't choose their path, they are innocent.

That's what Yhwh says all along from Genesis through Revelation

- the penalty for sin is death,
and the whole world is under the death penalty.
There is only one way to the Father, and that is through and in Jesus.

 

[CodyFaith]

That's what Yhwh says all along from Genesis through Revelation

- the penalty for sin is death,
and the whole world is under the death penalty.
There is only one way to the Father, and that is through and in Jesus.

Yes, the only way is through Jesus,

but coming to Jesus is a choice. God doesn't create some people programmed to not believe in Jesus and other people programmed to believe in Jesus.

We have free will to choose to accept Jesus or not to.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yes, the only way is through Jesus,....We have free will to choose to accept Jesus or not to.

AMEIN ! and HALLELUYAH !

 

[Job8]

and the whole world is under the death penalty

Therefore the gift of eternal life is offered to the whole world (Rom 6:23):
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[DeaconDean]

I mean in this day and age.

Then your statement is false.

"Pre-Reformation" means before reformation.

You should have said "post-reformation".

Big difference.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Rick Otto]

So you believe God creates people, who, not out of their own choices (my definition of free will - and the common one), deserve death because they were born evil?
They had absolutely no choice but to be evil, never?

Where's the justice in such beliefs? It's non-existent. God doesn't condemn innocent, and, if one didn't choose their path, they are innocent.

Choice isn't independent of one's nature.

 

[Rick Otto]

So you believe God creates people, who, not out of their own choices (my definition of free will - and the common one), deserve death because they were born evil?
They had absolutely no choice but to be evil, never?

Where's the justice in such beliefs? It's non-existent. God doesn't condemn innocent, and, if one didn't choose their path, they are innocent.

Since Adam sinned, we are all born evil.

 

[Rick Otto]

Therefore the gift of eternal life is offered to the whole world (Rom 6:23):
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The "whole world" meaning not just Jews.
God chooses whom to save.

 

[Rick Otto]

If that is indeed the case, then God also predestined others for Hell (and that would mean the bulk of humanity). Which is utter nonsense. You will not find a single Scripture to support such a travesty of God and God's grace.

If human beings did not have free will, then the human race would have been perfect from the day Adam was created. If is precisely because man has free will that he is given commands and he is also given the consequences of disobedience. This is called the Law of Cause and Effect as well as the Law of Sowing and Reaping. Please note carefully what God said to Adam:

COMMANDMENT
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it:

CONSEQUENCES OF DISOBEDIENCE
for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Those who accept Reformed Theology claim that ever since Adam sinned, human beings lost their free will. The Bible refutes such nonsense (Joshua 24:15).

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

That scripture implies we have a will. It does not imply that will is free of its owner's fallen nature.
Fallen man cannot choose eternal life. That's why we need a savior. We are born enemies of God until He gifts us with saving grace, thereby giving us faith.
C'mon Job8,... give that glory to God.

 

[CodyFaith]

That scripture implies we have a will. It does not imply that will is free of its owner's fallen nature.
Fallen man cannot choose eternal life. That's why we need a savior. We are born enemies of God until He gifts us with saving grace, thereby giving us faith.
C'mon Job8,... give that glory to God.

What determines his criteria for giving one saving grace or not?

Because one is less evil than another?

Or are all men exactly equal in morality?

 

[St_Worm2]

...are all men exactly equal in morality?

"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" ~Romans 3:23 (see also Romans 3:9-12; James 2:10-11).

 

[CodyFaith]

"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" ~Romans 3:23 (see also Romans 3:9-12; James 2:10-11).

Ok. That verse doesn't mean what you're implying but I'll roll with it.

So you're suggesting that, all men being equal, God chooses to save some, and other he chooses to damn forever and torture them forever?
Not based on their morality, or anything to do with those people he's damning character? You can't say it's "because they didn't come to Christ" - because that would imply they have guilt. When clearly, by what you're all saying, it was "out of those people's hands".

It's a disgusting doctrine, which lacks all forms of love and justice. To suggest God would create some people and damn them because they were programmed to not come to Christ, while save others because they were programmed to come to Christ.

 

[Job8]

That scripture implies we have a will. It does not imply that will is free of its owner's fallen nature.

The important point is that even with man's fallen nature, he has not lost his free will. Thus we have "freewill" offerings in the Old Covenant, which implies something worthy. If that were impossible God would not speak about freewill offerings.

Fallen man cannot choose eternal life. That's why we need a savior.

Because fallen man -- ALL BY HIMSELF -- cannot choose eternal life, God provides two SUPERNATURAL means whereby we can be saved: (1) the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16), and (2) the Holy Spirit accompanies the Gospel to convict and convince sinners of their need for the Savior (John 16:7-11).

We are born enemies of God until He gifts us with saving grace, thereby giving us faith.

Since God desires the salvation of ALL MEN, He does not arbitrarily give the gift of faith to some, and denies it to others. Instead it is through the preaching of the Gospel that faith is generated in the human heart (Rom 10:17): So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

C'mon Job8,... give that glory to God.

God receives far more glory when He freely offers salvation to WHOSOEVER WILL than arbitrarily picking and choosing who will be saved and who will be damned. Even the unsaved know that that is unrighteous. It is similar to you having several children and favoring one or two while neglecting the others.

 

[CodyFaith]

The important point is that even with man's fallen nature, he has not lost his free will. Thus we have "freewill" offerings in the Old Covenant, which implies something worthy. If that were impossible God would not speak about freewill offerings.

Because fallen man -- ALL BY HIMSELF -- cannot choose eternal life, God provides two SUPERNATURAL means whereby we can be saved: (1) the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16), and (2) the Holy Spirit accompanies the Gospel to convict and convince sinners of their need for the Savior (John 16:7-11).

Since God desires the salvation of ALL MEN, He does not arbitrarily give the gift of faith to some, and denies it to others. Instead it is through the preaching of the Gospel that faith is generated in the human heart (Rom 10:17): So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

God receives far more glory when He freely offers salvation to WHOSOEVER WILL than arbitrarily picking and choosing who will be saved and who will be damned. Even the unsaved know that that is unrighteous. It is similar to you having several children and favoring one or two while neglecting the others.

 

[St_Worm2]

So you're suggesting that, all men being equal, God chooses to save some, and other he chooses to damn forever and torture them forever? Not based on their morality, or anything to do with those people he's damning character? You can't say it's "because they didn't come to Christ" - because that would imply they have guilt. When clearly, by what you're all saying, it was "out of those people's hands". It's a disgusting doctrine, which lacks all forms of love and justice. To suggest God would create some people and damn them because they were programmed to not come to Christ, while save others because they were programmed to come to Christ.

Hi CF, we are all guilty of sinning and we are all equally deserving of death (consider again what the verses I posited above say). That God chooses to save a remnant rather than allowing us all to march headlong into the fate that we all justly deserve is a problem for you because?

As for God's "disgusting doctrine" of election, here is something you might want to consider:

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.”
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.”
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
25 As He says also in Hosea,
“I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ‘MY PEOPLE,’
AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ‘BELOVED.’ ”
26 “AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, ‘YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,’
THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD.” ~Romans 9:14-26​

Yours in Christ,
David

 

[CodyFaith]

Hi CF, we are all guilty of sinning and we are all equally deserving of death (consider again what the verses I posited above say). That God chooses to save a remnant rather than allowing us all to march headlong into the fate we all justly deserve is a problem for you because?

As for God's "disgusting doctrine" of election, here is something you might want to consider:

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15 For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.”
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.”
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
25 As He says also in Hosea,
“I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ‘MY PEOPLE,’
AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ‘BELOVED.’ ”
26 “AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, ‘YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,’
THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD.” ~Romans 9:14-26​

Yours in Christ,
David

It's a problem for me because it's unjust.

If we're all equal, why would he save me instead of the guy down the street?