• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Free will/predestination

TaylorSexton

1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith
Jan 16, 2014
1,065
423
34
Mundelein, IL
Visit site
✟50,301.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
The inheritance is predestinated. Not the convert.

No, no. This is the danger of being tied to a translation. "Having been predestined" in the Greek is a passive participle, which means it can only be modifying a substantive, namely, the subject of the passive finite verb, which would be "we," not the "inheritance," which is not even a substantive to be acted upon within the sentence.

The teaching of predestination of everyone and everything is in error, in that it does away with free will.

It is correct because that is what Scripture teaches. If it "does away" with our precious "free-will" (which is nowhere taught in Scripture), then so be it. I choose to side with Scripture.

Adam and Eve were not predestined to fall in the garden of Eden.

If they were not predestined, it never would have happened. This is the only thing that is compatible with an omnipotent and omniscience deity.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rick Otto
Upvote 0

Job8

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2014
4,639
1,804
✟36,613.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
If they were not predestined, it never would have happened. This is the only thing that is compatible with an omnipotent and omniscience deity.
Not necessarily. God's omnipotence and omniscience is totally compatible with Divine foreknowledge. It does not require that everything be pre-determined. If Adam and Eve were predestined to sin, then God could not hold them (or any human being) accountable.
 
Upvote 0

lesliedellow

Member
Sep 20, 2010
9,654
2,582
United Kingdom
Visit site
✟119,577.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
Not necessarily. God's omnipotence and omniscience is totally compatible with Divine foreknowledge. It does not require that everything be pre-determined. If Adam and Eve were predestined to sin, then God could not hold them (or any human being) accountable.

a.) God is omniscient. Therefore he knew Mr Smith's eternal destiny would be before he created him.
b.) If he wished Mr Smith to have an alternative destiny, he could have used his omnipotent power to create an alternative universe in which Mr Smith had that alternative destiny.
c.) God did not create an alternative universe, and therefore Mr Smith's fate will be whatever God's decision not to create that alternative universe implies for him.
d.) Therefore Mr Smith's eternal destiny is predetermined by a decision made by God in eternity past, and he is predestined.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rick Otto
Upvote 0

Job8

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2014
4,639
1,804
✟36,613.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
God is omniscient. Therefore he knew Mr Smith's eternal destiny would be before he created him.
Divine Foreknowledge is not Pre-Determinism. How many times does that have to be repeated?

God knows absolutely everything beforehand. But he certainly does not pre-determine everything, otherwise He would be complicit in every sin and atrocity every committed.
 
Upvote 0

lesliedellow

Member
Sep 20, 2010
9,654
2,582
United Kingdom
Visit site
✟119,577.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
Divine Foreknowledge is not Pre-Determinism. How many times does that have to be repeated?

God knows absolutely everything beforehand. But he certainly does not pre-determine everything, otherwise He would be complicit in every sin and atrocity every committed.

Did you bother to read more than the first line?
 
Upvote 0

lesliedellow

Member
Sep 20, 2010
9,654
2,582
United Kingdom
Visit site
✟119,577.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
Yes I did and that is irrelevant. Your God may be complicit in evil, but my God cannot be complicit in evil.

So where is my argument logically flawed? It is no use you throwing a tantrum because you don't like the conclusion, unless you can find a flaw in my argument.

The only way Arminianism can be made logically self consistent is to strip God of the attributes which both the Bible, and the last 2,000 years of Christianity, have credited him with. That, of course, is what the open theists do.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Rick Otto
Upvote 0

TaylorSexton

1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith
Jan 16, 2014
1,065
423
34
Mundelein, IL
Visit site
✟50,301.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Not necessarily. God's omnipotence and omniscience is totally compatible with Divine foreknowledge. It does not require that everything be pre-determined.

So there was a time when God didn't know what would happen? If God did not decree it, something else did, otherwise God learned. Those are the only three options.

If Adam and Eve were predestined to sin, then God could not hold them (or any human being) accountable.

This is the exact argument Paul refutes in Rom. 9. How can he blame us, for who can resist his will?
 
Upvote 0

lesliedellow

Member
Sep 20, 2010
9,654
2,582
United Kingdom
Visit site
✟119,577.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
If Adam and Eve were predestined to sin, then God could not hold them (or any human being) accountable.

Yes he could. The sin was all theirs, and freely undertaken, without anybody holding a gun to their heads. That renders them guilty - irrespective of whether their sin was eternally preordained or not.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rick Otto
Upvote 0

TaylorSexton

1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith
Jan 16, 2014
1,065
423
34
Mundelein, IL
Visit site
✟50,301.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Yes he could. The sin was all theirs, and freely undertaken, without anybody holding a gun to their heads. That renders them guilty - irrespective of whether their sin was eternally preordained or not.

Precisely. Necessary does not mean compulsory.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rick Otto
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,188
2,677
63
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟115,334.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
God predestined what God foreknew based on man's free-will - Romans 9. I'm leaning more toward this view.

Sure, there are things predestined, but it's only predestined because of God's foreknowledge of what man will choose, either to reject the gospel or accept the gospel. Very simple here.

See, I have a problem with this in that no matter what, God "predestinates" based on what man has, rather, will do at some time in the future.

That classic Jacobus Arminus' theology.

In plain English, what you say above is God, having foreknowledge of whether a person choses or rejects the gift of grace, and then "predestinates" based upon that choice.

That is not what Romans 8:28-29 teaches.

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

There is that little word "for" at the start of verse 29 which people do not take into consideration.

"For" links 28 with 29.

Why did God "foreknow" them?

Because He called them first.

To borrow from Arthur W. Pink:

"the Enemy sends along some man to argue that election is based upon the foreknowledge of God, and this "foreknowledge" is interpreted to mean that God foresaw certain ones would be more pliable than others, that they would respond more readily to the strivings of the Spirit, and that because God knew they would believe, He, accordingly, predestinated them unto salvation. But such a statement is radically wrong.

It takes away the independency of God, for it makes His decrees rest upon what He discovers in the creature. It completely turns things upside down, for in saying God foresaw certain sinners would believe in Christ, and that because of this, He predestinated them unto salvation, is the very reverse of the truth. Scripture affirms that God, in His high sovereignty, singled out certain ones to be recipients of His distinguishing favors (Acts 13:48), and therefore He determined to bestow upon them the gift of faith. False theology makes God’s foreknowledge of our believing the cause of His election to salvation; whereas, God’s election is the cause, and our believing in Christ is the effect.

Now the word "foreknowledge" as it is used in the New Testament is less ambiguous than in its simple form "to know." If every passage in which it occurs is carefully studied, it will be discovered that it is a moot point whether it ever has reference to the mere perception of events which are yet to take place. The fact is that "foreknowledge" is never used in Scripture in connection with events or actions; instead, it always has reference to persons. It is persons God is said to "foreknow," not the actions of those persons. In proof of this we shall now quote each passage where this expression is found.


The first occurrence is in Acts 2:23. There we read, "Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain." If careful attention is paid to the wording of this verse it will be seen that the apostle was not there speaking of God’s foreknowledge of the act of the crucifixion, but of the Person crucified: "Him (Christ) being delivered by," etc.


The second occurrence is in Romans 8;29,30. "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image, of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called," etc. Weigh well the pronoun that is used here. It is not what He did foreknow, but whom He did. It is not the surrendering of their wills nor the believing of their hearts but the persons themselves, which is here in view.


"God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew" (Rom. 11:2). Once more the plain reference is to persons, and to persons only.


The last mention is in 1 Peter 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father." Who are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father? The previous verse tells us: the reference is to the "strangers scattered" i.e. the Diaspora, the Dispersion, the believing Jews. Thus, here too the reference is to persons, and not to their foreseen acts.
Now in view of these passages (and there are no more) what scriptural ground is there for anyone saying God "foreknew" the acts of certain ones, viz., their "repenting and believing," and that because of those acts He elected them unto salvation? The answer is, None whatever. Scripture never speaks of repentance and faith as being foreseen or foreknown by God. Truly, He did know from all eternity that certain ones would repent and believe, yet this is not what Scripture refers to as the object of God’s "foreknowledge." The word uniformly refers to God’s foreknowing persons; then let us "hold fast the form of sound words" (2 Tim. 1:13).

God did not elect any sinner because He foresaw that he would believe, for the simple but sufficient reason that no sinner ever does believe until God gives him faith; just as no man sees until God gives him sight. Sight is God’s gift, seeing is the consequence of my using His gift. So faith is God’s gift (Eph. 1:8,9), believing is the consequence of my using His gift. If it were true that God had elected certain ones to be saved because in due time they would believe, then that would make believing a meritorious act, and in that event the saved sinner would have ground for "boasting," which Scripture emphatically denies: Ephesians 2:9."

The Attributes of God by A.W. Pink 4. The Foreknowledge of God

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Rick Otto
Upvote 0

Rick Otto

The Dude Abides
Nov 19, 2002
34,112
7,406
On The Prairie
✟29,593.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
See, I have a problem with this in that no matter what, God "predestinates" based on what man has, rather, will do at some time in the future.

That classic Jacobus Arminus' theology.

In plain English, what you say above is God, having foreknowledge of whether a person choses or rejects the gift of grace, and then "predestinates" based upon that choice.

That is not what Romans 8:28-29 teaches.

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

There is that little word "for" at the start of verse 29 which people do not take into consideration.

"For" links 28 with 29.

Why did God "foreknow" them?

Because He called them first.

To borrow from Arthur W. Pink:

"the Enemy sends along some man to argue that election is based upon the foreknowledge of God, and this "foreknowledge" is interpreted to mean that God foresaw certain ones would be more pliable than others, that they would respond more readily to the strivings of the Spirit, and that because God knew they would believe, He, accordingly, predestinated them unto salvation. But such a statement is radically wrong.

It takes away the independency of God, for it makes His decrees rest upon what He discovers in the creature. It completely turns things upside down, for in saying God foresaw certain sinners would believe in Christ, and that because of this, He predestinated them unto salvation, is the very reverse of the truth. Scripture affirms that God, in His high sovereignty, singled out certain ones to be recipients of His distinguishing favors (Acts 13:48), and therefore He determined to bestow upon them the gift of faith. False theology makes God’s foreknowledge of our believing the cause of His election to salvation; whereas, God’s election is the cause, and our believing in Christ is the effect.

Now the word "foreknowledge" as it is used in the New Testament is less ambiguous than in its simple form "to know." If every passage in which it occurs is carefully studied, it will be discovered that it is a moot point whether it ever has reference to the mere perception of events which are yet to take place. The fact is that "foreknowledge" is never used in Scripture in connection with events or actions; instead, it always has reference to persons. It is persons God is said to "foreknow," not the actions of those persons. In proof of this we shall now quote each passage where this expression is found.


The first occurrence is in Acts 2:23. There we read, "Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain." If careful attention is paid to the wording of this verse it will be seen that the apostle was not there speaking of God’s foreknowledge of the act of the crucifixion, but of the Person crucified: "Him (Christ) being delivered by," etc.


The second occurrence is in Romans 8;29,30. "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image, of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called," etc. Weigh well the pronoun that is used here. It is not what He did foreknow, but whom He did. It is not the surrendering of their wills nor the believing of their hearts but the persons themselves, which is here in view.


"God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew" (Rom. 11:2). Once more the plain reference is to persons, and to persons only.


The last mention is in 1 Peter 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father." Who are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father? The previous verse tells us: the reference is to the "strangers scattered" i.e. the Diaspora, the Dispersion, the believing Jews. Thus, here too the reference is to persons, and not to their foreseen acts.
Now in view of these passages (and there are no more) what scriptural ground is there for anyone saying God "foreknew" the acts of certain ones, viz., their "repenting and believing," and that because of those acts He elected them unto salvation? The answer is, None whatever. Scripture never speaks of repentance and faith as being foreseen or foreknown by God. Truly, He did know from all eternity that certain ones would repent and believe, yet this is not what Scripture refers to as the object of God’s "foreknowledge." The word uniformly refers to God’s foreknowing persons; then let us "hold fast the form of sound words" (2 Tim. 1:13).

God did not elect any sinner because He foresaw that he would believe, for the simple but sufficient reason that no sinner ever does believe until God gives him faith; just as no man sees until God gives him sight. Sight is God’s gift, seeing is the consequence of my using His gift. So faith is God’s gift (Eph. 1:8,9), believing is the consequence of my using His gift. If it were true that God had elected certain ones to be saved because in due time they would believe, then that would make believing a meritorious act, and in that event the saved sinner would have ground for "boasting," which Scripture emphatically denies: Ephesians 2:9."

The Attributes of God by A.W. Pink 4. The Foreknowledge of God

God Bless

Till all are one.
Awesome, bro. I get all that.
Now help me deconstruct the "robot" objection.
I wonder at my own detachment to life sometimes, but this fear of having no autonomy, no self-sovereignity, no free will, is just lost on me in large part. Maybe I'm confident enough both of God's goodness and my own lack of redeeming values, that being His puppet is comforting... I don't know. I am confused.
It seems to be one side of the coin, the other being a need for, an urge toward, personal responsibility.
I'm thinking we overburden the concepts of free will and responsibility in defining sovereignty.
What do ya got, Dean?

Anybody?
 
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,188
2,677
63
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟115,334.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Awesome, bro. I get all that.
Now help me deconstruct the "robot" objection.
I wonder at my own detachment to life sometimes, but this fear of having no autonomy, no self-sovereignity, no free will, is just lost on me in large part. Maybe I'm confident enough both of God's goodness and my own lack of redeeming values, that being His puppet is comforting... I don't know. I am confused.
It seems to be one side of the coin, the other being a need for, an urge toward, personal responsibility.
I'm thinking we overburden the concepts of free will and responsibility in defining sovereignty.
What do ya got, Dean?

Anybody?

We are not "robots" by any stretch of the imagination. One of the fallacies of "predestination" is that once "predestinated", your on a path and there is no way to deviate from it. If you come to a fork in the road, you go left, God predestinated that.

Bunk!

Man indeed has a "will". But the heart of the matter is just how "free" it is.

Arthur Pink shows us just how this works. There are three types of people.
  • Adam
  • Jesus
  • Descendants of Adam
The debate hinges around just how free our will is. In Adam, he was created in a state of innocence. He was able to be swayed towards evil.

Jesus, God in the flesh, knew what evil was, and therefor, could not sin. He was perfect.

Pink puts it this way:

"In unfallen Adam the will was free, free in both directions, free toward good and free toward evil. Adam was created in a state of Innocency, but not in a state of holiness, as is so often assumed and asserted. Adam’s will was therefore in a condition of moral equipoise: that is to say, in Adam there was no constraining bias in him toward either good or evil, and as such, Adam differed radically from all his descendants, as well as from "the Man Christ Jesus." But with the sinner it is far otherwise. The sinner is born with a will that is not in a condition of moral equipoise, because in him there is a heart that is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked," and this gives him a bias toward evil. So, too, with the Lord Jesus it was far otherwise: He also differed radically from unfallen Adam. The Lord Jesus Christ could not sin because He was "the Holy One of God." Before He was born into this world it was said to Mary, "The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that Holy Thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35). Speaking reverently then, we say, that the will of the Son of Man was not in a condition of moral equipoise, that is, capable of turning toward either good or evil. The will of the Lord Jesus was biased toward that which is good because, side by side with His sinless, holy, perfect humanity, was His eternal Deity. Now in contradistinction from the will of the Lord Jesus which was biased toward good, and Adam’s will which, before his fall, was in a condition of moral equipoise—capable of turning toward either good or evil—the sinner’s will is biased toward evil, and therefore is free in one direction only, namely, in the direction of evil. The sinner’s will is enslaved because it is in bondage to and is the servant of a depraved heart."

Source

The descendants of Adam, you and I, were born in sin. We are told that prior to salvation, we were in bondage to sin. This is where "depravity" comes into play. Man is depraved, totally, but not utterly. There is something that causes us to choose the left or right.

Pink puts it this way:

"What is the Will? We answer, the will is the faculty of choice, the immediate cause of all action. Choice necessarily implies the refusal of one thing and the acceptance of another. The positive and the negative must both be present to the mind before there can be any choice. In every act of the will there is a preference—the desiring of one thing rather than another. Where there is no preference, but complete indifference, there is no volition. To will is to choose, and to choose is to decide between two or more alternatives. But there is something which influences the choice; something which determines the decision. Hence the will cannot be sovereign because it is the servant of that something. The will cannot be both sovereign and servant. It cannot be both cause and effect. The will is not causative, because, as we have said, something causes it to choose, therefore that something must be the causative agent. Choice itself is affected by certain considerations, is determined by various influences brought to bear upon the individual himself, hence, volition is the effect of these considerations and influences, and if the effect, it must be their servant; and if the will is their servant then it is not sovereign, and if the will is not sovereign, we certainly cannot predicate absolute "freedom" of it. Acts of the will cannot come to pass of themselves—to say they can, is to postulate an uncaused effect. Ex nihilo nihil fit—nothing cannot produce something.

In all ages, however, there have been those who contended for the absolute freedom or sovereignty of the human will. Men will argue that the will possesses a self-determining power. They say, for example, I can turn my eyes up or down, the mind is quite indifferent which I do, the will must decide. But this is a contradiction in terms. This case supposes that I choose one thing in preference to another, while I am in a state of complete indifference. Manifestly, both cannot be true. But it may be replied, the mind was quite indifferent until it came to have a preference. Exactly; and at that time the will was quiescent, too! But the moment indifference vanished, choice was made, and the fact that indifference gave place to preference, overthrows the argument that the will is capable of choosing between two equal things. As we have said, choice implies the acceptance of one alternative and the rejection of the other or others.

That which determines the will is that which causes it to choose. If the will is determined, then there must be a determiner. What is it that determines the will? We reply, The strongest motive power which is brought to bear upon it. What this motive power is, varies in different cases. With one it may be the logic of reason, with another the voice of conscience, with another the impulse of the emotions, with another the whisper of the Tempter, with another the power of the Holy Spirit; whichever of these presents the strongest motive power and exerts the greatest influence upon the individual himself, is that which impels the will to act. In other words, the action of the will is determined by that condition of mind (which in turn is influenced by the world, the flesh, and the Devil, as well as by God), which has the greatest degree of tendency to excite volition. To illustrate what we have just said let us analyze a simple example—On a certain Lord’s day afternoon a friend of ours was suffering from a severe headache. He was anxious to visit the sick, but feared that if he did so his own condition would grow worse, and as the consequence, be unable to attend the preaching of the Gospel that evening. Two alternatives confronted him: to visit the sick that afternoon and risk being sick himself, or, to take a rest that afternoon (and visit the sick the next day), and probably arise refreshed and fit for the evening service. Now what was it that decided our friend in choosing between these two alternatives? The will? Not at all. True, that in the end, the will made a choice, but the will itself was moved to make the choice. In the above case certain considerations presented strong motives for selecting either alternative; these motives were balanced the one against the other by the individual himself, i.e., his heart and mind, and the one alternative being supported by stronger motives than the other, decision was formed accordingly, and then the will acted. On the one side, our friend felt impelled by a sense of duty to visit the sick; he was moved with compassion to do so, and thus a strong motive was presented to his mind. On the other hand, his judgment reminded him that he was feeling far from well himself, that he badly needed a rest, that if he visited the sick his own condition would probably be made worse, and in such case he would be prevented from attending the preaching of the Gospel that night; furthermore, he knew that on the morrow, the Lord willing, he could visit the sick, and this being so, he concluded he ought to rest that afternoon. Here then were two sets of alternatives presented to our Christian brother: on the one side was a sense of duty plus his own sympathy, on the other side was a sense of his own need plus a real concern for God’s glory, for he felt that he ought to attend the preaching of the Gospel that night. The latter prevailed. Spiritual considerations outweighed his sense of duty. Having formed his decision the will acted accordingly, and he retired to rest. An analysis of the above case shows that the mind or reasoning faculty was directed by spiritual considerations, and the mind regulated and controlled the will. Hence we say that, if the will is controlled, it is neither sovereign nor free, but is the servant of the mind.

It is only as we see the real nature of freedom and mark that the will is subject to the motives brought to bear upon it, that we are able to discern there is no conflict between two statements of Holy Writ which concern our blessed Lord. In Matthew 4:1 we read, "Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the Devil;" but in Mark 1:12, 13 we are told, "And immediately the Spirit driveth Him into the wilderness. And He was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan". It is utterly impossible to harmonize these two statements by the Arminian conception of the will. But really there is no difficulty. That Christ was "driven", implies it was by a forcible motive or powerful impulse, such as was not to be resisted or refused; that He was "led" denotes His freedom in going. Putting the two together we learn, that He was driven, with a voluntary condescension thereto. So, there is the liberty of man’s will and the victorious efficacy of God’s grace united together: a sinner may be "drawn" and yet "come" to Christ—the "drawing" presenting to him the irresistible motive, the "coming" signifying the response of his will—as Christ was "driven" and "led" by the Spirit into the wilderness.

Human philosophy insists that it is the will which governs the man, but the Word of God teaches that it is the heart which is the dominating center of our being. Many scriptures might be quoted in substantiation of this. "Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life" (Prov. 4:23). "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders," etc. (Mark 7:21). Here our Lord traces these sinful acts back to their source, and declares that their fountain is the "heart," and not the will! Again; "This people draweth nigh unto Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me" (Matt. 15:8). If further proof were required we might call attention to the fact that the word "heart" is found in the Bible more than three times oftener than is the word "will," even though nearly half of the references to the latter refer to God’s will!

When we affirm that it is the heart and not the will which governs the man, we are not merely striving about words, but insisting on a distinction that is of vital importance. Here is an individual before whom two alternatives are placed; which will he choose? We answer, the one which is most agreeable to himself, i.e., his "heart"—the innermost core of his being. Before the sinner is set a life of virtue and piety, and a life of sinful indulgence; which will he follow? The latter. Why? Because this is his choice. But does that prove the will is sovereign? Not at all. Go back from effect to cause. Why does the sinner choose a life of sinful indulgence? Because he prefers it—and he does prefer it, all arguments to the contrary notwithstanding, though of course he does not enjoy the effects of such a course. And why does he prefer it? Because his heart is sinful. The same alternatives, in like manner, confront the Christian, and he chooses and strives after a life of piety and virtue. Why? Because God has given him a new heart or nature. Hence we say it is not the will which makes the sinner impervious to all appeals to "forsake his way," but his corrupt and evil heart. He will not come to Christ, because be does not want to, and he does not want to because his heart hates Him and loves sin: see Jeremiah 17 :9!"

Source

yes, man has a will, and he exercises it most well. But according to scripture, man follows his heart, and at the heart of man, before salvation, is evil. It is only after salvation that free from the bondage to sin.

No, man is not a robot, and man is not predestinated to go left when he should have gone right. And no matter what, before salvation, and after, man has to answer for his actions. The exception is, after salvation, all the sin of the past is forgotten, forgiven, never remembered again, cast as far as the east is from west.

After salvation, we certainly will sin, try as we might not to, we are still in this body of flesh where sin and holiness are at war with each other, if we sin, we can ask for forgiveness.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Upvote 0

Rick Otto

The Dude Abides
Nov 19, 2002
34,112
7,406
On The Prairie
✟29,593.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
We are not "robots" by any stretch of the imagination. One of the fallacies of "predestination" is that once "predestinated", your on a path and there is no way to deviate from it. If you come to a fork in the road, you go left, God predestinated that.

Bunk!

Man indeed has a "will". But the heart of the matter is just how "free" it is.

Arthur Pink shows us just how this works. There are three types of people.
  • Adam
  • Jesus
  • Descendants of Adam
The debate hinges around just how free our will is. In Adam, he was created in a state of innocence. He was able to be swayed towards evil.

Jesus, God in the flesh, knew what evil was, and therefor, could not sin. He was perfect.

Pink puts it this way:

"In unfallen Adam the will was free, free in both directions, free toward good and free toward evil. Adam was created in a state of Innocency, but not in a state of holiness, as is so often assumed and asserted. Adam’s will was therefore in a condition of moral equipoise: that is to say, in Adam there was no constraining bias in him toward either good or evil, and as such, Adam differed radically from all his descendants, as well as from "the Man Christ Jesus." But with the sinner it is far otherwise. The sinner is born with a will that is not in a condition of moral equipoise, because in him there is a heart that is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked," and this gives him a bias toward evil. So, too, with the Lord Jesus it was far otherwise: He also differed radically from unfallen Adam. The Lord Jesus Christ could not sin because He was "the Holy One of God." Before He was born into this world it was said to Mary, "The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that Holy Thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35). Speaking reverently then, we say, that the will of the Son of Man was not in a condition of moral equipoise, that is, capable of turning toward either good or evil. The will of the Lord Jesus was biased toward that which is good because, side by side with His sinless, holy, perfect humanity, was His eternal Deity. Now in contradistinction from the will of the Lord Jesus which was biased toward good, and Adam’s will which, before his fall, was in a condition of moral equipoise—capable of turning toward either good or evil—the sinner’s will is biased toward evil, and therefore is free in one direction only, namely, in the direction of evil. The sinner’s will is enslaved because it is in bondage to and is the servant of a depraved heart."

Source

The descendants of Adam, you and I, were born in sin. We are told that prior to salvation, we were in bondage to sin. This is where "depravity" comes into play. Man is depraved, totally, but not utterly. There is something that causes us to choose the left or right.

Pink puts it this way:

"What is the Will? We answer, the will is the faculty of choice, the immediate cause of all action. Choice necessarily implies the refusal of one thing and the acceptance of another. The positive and the negative must both be present to the mind before there can be any choice. In every act of the will there is a preference—the desiring of one thing rather than another. Where there is no preference, but complete indifference, there is no volition. To will is to choose, and to choose is to decide between two or more alternatives. But there is something which influences the choice; something which determines the decision. Hence the will cannot be sovereign because it is the servant of that something. The will cannot be both sovereign and servant. It cannot be both cause and effect. The will is not causative, because, as we have said, something causes it to choose, therefore that something must be the causative agent. Choice itself is affected by certain considerations, is determined by various influences brought to bear upon the individual himself, hence, volition is the effect of these considerations and influences, and if the effect, it must be their servant; and if the will is their servant then it is not sovereign, and if the will is not sovereign, we certainly cannot predicate absolute "freedom" of it. Acts of the will cannot come to pass of themselves—to say they can, is to postulate an uncaused effect. Ex nihilo nihil fit—nothing cannot produce something.

In all ages, however, there have been those who contended for the absolute freedom or sovereignty of the human will. Men will argue that the will possesses a self-determining power. They say, for example, I can turn my eyes up or down, the mind is quite indifferent which I do, the will must decide. But this is a contradiction in terms. This case supposes that I choose one thing in preference to another, while I am in a state of complete indifference. Manifestly, both cannot be true. But it may be replied, the mind was quite indifferent until it came to have a preference. Exactly; and at that time the will was quiescent, too! But the moment indifference vanished, choice was made, and the fact that indifference gave place to preference, overthrows the argument that the will is capable of choosing between two equal things. As we have said, choice implies the acceptance of one alternative and the rejection of the other or others.

That which determines the will is that which causes it to choose. If the will is determined, then there must be a determiner. What is it that determines the will? We reply, The strongest motive power which is brought to bear upon it. What this motive power is, varies in different cases. With one it may be the logic of reason, with another the voice of conscience, with another the impulse of the emotions, with another the whisper of the Tempter, with another the power of the Holy Spirit; whichever of these presents the strongest motive power and exerts the greatest influence upon the individual himself, is that which impels the will to act. In other words, the action of the will is determined by that condition of mind (which in turn is influenced by the world, the flesh, and the Devil, as well as by God), which has the greatest degree of tendency to excite volition. To illustrate what we have just said let us analyze a simple example—On a certain Lord’s day afternoon a friend of ours was suffering from a severe headache. He was anxious to visit the sick, but feared that if he did so his own condition would grow worse, and as the consequence, be unable to attend the preaching of the Gospel that evening. Two alternatives confronted him: to visit the sick that afternoon and risk being sick himself, or, to take a rest that afternoon (and visit the sick the next day), and probably arise refreshed and fit for the evening service. Now what was it that decided our friend in choosing between these two alternatives? The will? Not at all. True, that in the end, the will made a choice, but the will itself was moved to make the choice. In the above case certain considerations presented strong motives for selecting either alternative; these motives were balanced the one against the other by the individual himself, i.e., his heart and mind, and the one alternative being supported by stronger motives than the other, decision was formed accordingly, and then the will acted. On the one side, our friend felt impelled by a sense of duty to visit the sick; he was moved with compassion to do so, and thus a strong motive was presented to his mind. On the other hand, his judgment reminded him that he was feeling far from well himself, that he badly needed a rest, that if he visited the sick his own condition would probably be made worse, and in such case he would be prevented from attending the preaching of the Gospel that night; furthermore, he knew that on the morrow, the Lord willing, he could visit the sick, and this being so, he concluded he ought to rest that afternoon. Here then were two sets of alternatives presented to our Christian brother: on the one side was a sense of duty plus his own sympathy, on the other side was a sense of his own need plus a real concern for God’s glory, for he felt that he ought to attend the preaching of the Gospel that night. The latter prevailed. Spiritual considerations outweighed his sense of duty. Having formed his decision the will acted accordingly, and he retired to rest. An analysis of the above case shows that the mind or reasoning faculty was directed by spiritual considerations, and the mind regulated and controlled the will. Hence we say that, if the will is controlled, it is neither sovereign nor free, but is the servant of the mind.

It is only as we see the real nature of freedom and mark that the will is subject to the motives brought to bear upon it, that we are able to discern there is no conflict between two statements of Holy Writ which concern our blessed Lord. In Matthew 4:1 we read, "Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the Devil;" but in Mark 1:12, 13 we are told, "And immediately the Spirit driveth Him into the wilderness. And He was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan". It is utterly impossible to harmonize these two statements by the Arminian conception of the will. But really there is no difficulty. That Christ was "driven", implies it was by a forcible motive or powerful impulse, such as was not to be resisted or refused; that He was "led" denotes His freedom in going. Putting the two together we learn, that He was driven, with a voluntary condescension thereto. So, there is the liberty of man’s will and the victorious efficacy of God’s grace united together: a sinner may be "drawn" and yet "come" to Christ—the "drawing" presenting to him the irresistible motive, the "coming" signifying the response of his will—as Christ was "driven" and "led" by the Spirit into the wilderness.

Human philosophy insists that it is the will which governs the man, but the Word of God teaches that it is the heart which is the dominating center of our being. Many scriptures might be quoted in substantiation of this. "Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life" (Prov. 4:23). "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders," etc. (Mark 7:21). Here our Lord traces these sinful acts back to their source, and declares that their fountain is the "heart," and not the will! Again; "This people draweth nigh unto Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me" (Matt. 15:8). If further proof were required we might call attention to the fact that the word "heart" is found in the Bible more than three times oftener than is the word "will," even though nearly half of the references to the latter refer to God’s will!

When we affirm that it is the heart and not the will which governs the man, we are not merely striving about words, but insisting on a distinction that is of vital importance. Here is an individual before whom two alternatives are placed; which will he choose? We answer, the one which is most agreeable to himself, i.e., his "heart"—the innermost core of his being. Before the sinner is set a life of virtue and piety, and a life of sinful indulgence; which will he follow? The latter. Why? Because this is his choice. But does that prove the will is sovereign? Not at all. Go back from effect to cause. Why does the sinner choose a life of sinful indulgence? Because he prefers it—and he does prefer it, all arguments to the contrary notwithstanding, though of course he does not enjoy the effects of such a course. And why does he prefer it? Because his heart is sinful. The same alternatives, in like manner, confront the Christian, and he chooses and strives after a life of piety and virtue. Why? Because God has given him a new heart or nature. Hence we say it is not the will which makes the sinner impervious to all appeals to "forsake his way," but his corrupt and evil heart. He will not come to Christ, because be does not want to, and he does not want to because his heart hates Him and loves sin: see Jeremiah 17 :9!"

Source

yes, man has a will, and he exercises it most well. But according to scripture, man follows his heart, and at the heart of man, before salvation, is evil. It is only after salvation that free from the bondage to sin.

No, man is not a robot, and man is not predestinated to go left when he should have gone right. And no matter what, before salvation, and after, man has to answer for his actions. The exception is, after salvation, all the sin of the past is forgotten, forgiven, never remembered again, cast as far as the east is from west.

After salvation, we certainly will sin, try as we might not to, we are still in this body of flesh where sin and holiness are at war with each other, if we sin, we can ask for forgiveness.

God Bless

Till all are one.
Cool.
The will is the robot that does whatever the mind tells it to.
It is the mind that needs to be free.
 
Upvote 0

Geralt

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 9, 2016
793
259
GB
✟67,832.00
Country
Philippines
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
man's free will after all is not entirely free, it is contained within one's level of ability (which not only includes limited physical ability or resource, but also understanding.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rick Otto
Upvote 0

Archie the Preacher

Apostle to the Intellectual Skeptics
Apr 11, 2003
3,171
1,012
Hastings, Nebraska - the Heartland!
Visit site
✟46,332.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
I used to think Calvinists were wrong and that we do have a free will, but I'm starting to think they're right.
This issue has been fought over to one degree or another since the time of St. Augustine of Hippo. (Which has nothing to do with large aquatic mammals in tutus.) If you are serious about the 'Calvanist' school of thought, listen to R. C. Sproul's radio programme, 'Renewing Your Mind' on generic Christian Radio. (I get the programme on the local 'BOTT' radio network.)


J0SHUA said:
But why wouldn't he want us to be able to do our own thing and why would He plan things He hates like murder and rape?
The short version is two-fold. One is this is a misunderstanding of God's intent. God's will does not include things like murder and rape, but those things occur because humans reject God's will and leadership. The second portion is God COULD make us all 'good' and not prone to do things against His will (either major or minor) but that would make humanity robots, incapable of exercising 'free will'.

J0SHUA said:
I'm kind of starting to believe that He predestined all who would be saved but He didn't predestine their lives and would leave it up to randomness for His children. I'm still not sure though I don't know what to believe and I can't accept the fact we don't have a free will
You're probably pretty close, I think. Whatever the ultimate truth, it certainly SEEMS we have free will. I have to decide what clothes to wear every day, it's not like I get a letter every morning telling me what colors to wear. And so on...

And be prepared for the onslaught. Between this issue (short title: Cavin vs. Arminius) and the Young Earth/Scientific Discovery issue, Christians have hardly anything to fight about. Maybe Othodox versus Protestant...

Put on your helmet, secure your gear and buckle your seat belt. This will be a bumpy ride!
 
Upvote 0

Rick Otto

The Dude Abides
Nov 19, 2002
34,112
7,406
On The Prairie
✟29,593.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I think the term "free will" has perfect fly legitimate uses in everyday conversation, but in theology the term is under the microscope so to speak.
The will is just a tool of the mind or heart.
It is confusing to describe a tool as "free".
 
Upvote 0

lesliedellow

Member
Sep 20, 2010
9,654
2,582
United Kingdom
Visit site
✟119,577.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
We are not "robots" by any stretch of the imagination. One of the fallacies of "predestination" is that once "predestinated", your on a path and there is no way to deviate from it. If you come to a fork in the road, you go left, God predestinated that.

Bunk!

Are you saying that the crucifixion of Jesus was not preordained by God, and that Pilate might have released him if he hadn't woken up with a hangover that morning?

"God, the great Creator of all things, doth uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by his most wise and holy providence, according to his infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of his own will, to the praise of the glory of his wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy." (Westminster Confession)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,188
2,677
63
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟115,334.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Are you saying that the crucifixion of Jesus was not preordained by God, and that Pilate might have released him if he hadn't woken up with a hangover that morning?

Please show me in this thread where I said that.

Post it here.

What was Jesus' answer to Pilate?

"To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth." -Jn. 18:37 KJV

The Inspirations sing a song very, very dear to my heart. And one verse goes like this:

"Then I heard a voice saying, "Father, I'll go.
I'll pay his sin-debt in Calv'ry's flow.
I'll bear in my body the marks of the cross
To save that child who is sin-sick and lost."

It's Still the Blood, Words and Music by Lois Gail
© 1987 Tuckaseigee Publishing Co.

Before leaving heaven, before leaving the glory that was inherently His, He knew to what He was going to come to.

There is a the difference between "foreordained and predestinated".

"Foreordination and predestination are terms that are sometimes used interchangeably. Foreordination denotes God’s sovereign plan whereby in eternity He has already decreed all that is to happen in the entire universe, which He created. Predestination is modern terminology depicting the functions of foreordination; it defines the specifics of God’s eternal plan, i.e., God’s foreknowledge in election, the manifestation of His call (summons) and justification in time and the glorification of His elect in eternity (Romans 8:30)."

Source

In Romans 8:29, our "predestination" is to what end?

"to be conformed to the image of his Son"

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rick Otto
Upvote 0

Monk Brendan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jul 21, 2016
4,636
2,875
74
Phoenix, Arizona
Visit site
✟339,430.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Melkite Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
...it also makes sense because God knows everything and would therefore plan everything as the Bible teaches
I have a real problem with the whole "pre-selected" thing. First, God loves us all (Jn 3:16). Second, in that same verse, it says "whosoever." Well, I am a part of whosoever, and yet I am treated like a dog on a different Christian blog, simply because I am Eastern Catholic. The god of Calvin is a cruel god, who creates only to destroy, and give no free will to his children.
 
Upvote 0