Free will/predestination

[Monk Brendan]

Grace cannot be rejected

Grace, or any other form of God's love can be rejected. It is possible. Now God can make it very difficult to resist His love, but it can be rejected.

 

[Monk Brendan]

But even though Judas' treachery was preordained, he will still be held responsible for his actions come judgment day. That is a paradox we have to live with.

Why? If Judas was pre-ordained to betray Jesus, and had no more flaws in his character, then shouldn't he also be saved? The reason for Judas being condemned is not for the betrayal, but for giving in to despair and hanging himself. All of the other Apostles had character flaws, we know. If Judas had stuck around a three more days, he would have found himself forgiven by Jesus.

 

[lesliedellow]

I have a real problem with the whole "pre-selected" thing. First, God loves us all (Jn 3:16). Second, in that same verse, it says "whosoever." Well, I am a part of whosoever, and yet I am treated like a dog on a different Christian blog, simply because I am Eastern Catholic. The god of Calvin is a cruel god, who creates only to destroy, and give no free will to his children.

The idea seems to be abroad nowadays that you have to like something before it can be true. If religion is not to be an exercise in pure subjectivity, theology has to be based upon biblical revelation, and not upon likes and dislikes.

 

[fat wee robin]

Eph.1:11, 12, better rendition: "we were assigned a lot as having been predestinated." Already in eternity God determined the lot he assigned us in time, ie, directed to man's salvation, eg, knew the hearts of men and dropped Biblical Truth right onto their laps and they embraced it where others viewed as fallacious. Free-will in the temporal plane, of course we have; however one must not be under the 'power of sin' yet a sinner asking for continued dismissal of sins. In 'eternity' does not neccessarily mean 'in the beginning at Creation ,but at a time when God decided to launch His plan to save us ,bring us back to Him .
Babies are nor born with a blank slate ,that is clear .

It's not an issue dealing with common sense, but more so interpreting from the English backwards to the ancient languages resulting in fallacious interpretations of Scriptures backed by 'common sense.' Just ol' old Jack trying to use God's common sense.

 

[Monk Brendan]

The idea seems to be abroad nowadays that you have to like something before it can be true. If religion is not to be an exercise in pure subjectivity, theology has to be based upon biblical revelation, and not upon likes and dislikes.

I didn't say I liked it or not. I said a had a problem with Calvinism, as God has told us in His Word that He loves ALL or us. It is not a matter or liking it--it would be easy to go along, living my own life, doing as I want, and not have to worry about things like heaven or hell. But because we DO have free will, and can choose to love God or not, then we do have to live our lives for God, in order to get to heaven.

 

[fat wee robin]

I mean does God plan every single thing that happens in life? And I mean everything, not just saved people. It seems like the Bible teaches we do not have a free will (Ephesians 1:11-12) but common sense proves we do have a free will: God gets angry with sin in the Bible, why would you plan something and get angry over what you planned? You can't get angry at what you planned, otherwise you would not have planned it. And if we didn't have a free will why would we be punished for sin? Wouldn't that be like putting a gun in a baby's hands, making her shoot by pushing her finger against the trigger to make her kill someone and then punish her for killing someone? The common sense alone makes me believe we do have a free will, this would mean I am taking biblical teaches of no free will the wrong way.

There are things in the bible which have been ignored ,and maybe even some which has been left out . We do have free will ,but within a time frame, and programme made in advance by God .

 

[lesliedellow]

Why? If Judas had stuck around a three more days, he would have found himself forgiven by Jesus.

"The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

It sounds to me as if Jesus might have had his own ideas about that.

 

[Monk Brendan]

It sounds to me as if Jesus might have had his own ideas about that.

Please prove that in the Gospels--Just the Gospels, and nowhere else.

 

[lesliedellow]

I didn't say I liked it or not. I said a had a problem with Calvinism, as God has told us in His Word that He loves ALL or us. It is not a matter or liking it--it would be easy to go along, living my own life, doing as I want, and not have to worry about things like heaven or hell. But because we DO have free will, and can choose to love God or not, then we do have to live our lives for God, in order to get to heaven.

If somebody spent their lives giving a two finger salute to God, that would not be much of a sign that he had been chosen for eternal life.

 

[lesliedellow]

Please prove that in the Gospels--Just the Gospels, and nowhere else.

I have just quoted the Gospel.

 

[Monk Brendan]

I have just quoted the Gospel.

Yes, you did. But still, the pre-Reformation Churches all declare that his sin was despair.

 

[lesliedellow]

Yes, you did. But still, the pre-Reformation Churches all declare that his sin was despair.

Perhaps they should crack open their Bibles every once in a while.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Perhaps they should crack open their Bibles every once in a while.

That was a nasty slap. Most of the people in Pre-Reformation Churches do crack their Bible, usually every day.

 

[DeaconDean]

Most of the people in Pre-Reformation Churches do crack their Bible, usually every day.

Funny, how is it that until the late 1510's, there was no Bible per se, for the average "joe".

Wasn't it the Catholic Church who persecuted Martin Luther for wanting to put the scriptures in the language of the people?

Wasn't it the Catholic Church who attacked men such as John Wycliff and William Tyndale?

And to the best of my knowledge, the "Reformation" didn't start until around 1516.

So how did "the people in Pre-Reformation (Before Reformation) churches...crack their bibles"?

Hum...

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Funny, how is it that until the late 1510's, there was no Bible per se, for the average "joe".

Wasn't it the Catholic Church who persecuted Martin Luther for wanting to put the scriptures in the language of the people? Not for wanting to put the Bible in German, but what he wanted to include and exclude

Wasn't it the Catholic Church who attacked men such as John Wycliff and William Tyndale?

And to the best of my knowledge, the "Reformation" didn't start until around 1516.

So how did "the people in Pre-Reformation (Before Reformation) churches...crack their bibles"?

Hum...

Wasn't it the Catholic Church who persecuted Martin Luther for wanting to put the scriptures in the language of the people? Not for wanting to put the Bible in German, but what he wanted to include and exclude in the Bible.

So how did "the people in Pre-Reformation (Before Reformation) churches...crack their bibles"?
By attending Mass or Divine Liturgy daily--or a often as they could, and by following the Prayer Rule of the Mother of God (Rosary) in which each bead signified one of the Psalms.

If one is in the enviable position to attend the Divine Liturgy daily, then the New Testament is opened for them every day.

 

[DeaconDean]

Wasn't it the Catholic Church who persecuted Martin Luther for wanting to put the scriptures in the language of the people? Not for wanting to put the Bible in German, but what he wanted to include and exclude in the Bible.

So how did "the people in Pre-Reformation (Before Reformation) churches...crack their bibles"?
By attending Mass or Divine Liturgy daily--or a often as they could, and by following the Prayer Rule of the Mother of God (Rosary) in which each bead signified one of the Psalms.

If one is in the enviable position to attend the Divine Liturgy daily, then the New Testament is opened for them every day.

Back-peddling.

You said:

"Most of the people in Pre-Reformation Churches do crack their Bible, usually every day."

The implication being that they had a Bible in their possession.

If you meant they had it read to them, then say it.

The average person of that time, could bearly read.

Geez

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[CodyFaith]

God wouldn't create people "evil" then burn them forever because they were created the way they were, ie, not their fault.

We have freewill. (I will note that I believe in eternal security aswell).

 

[DeaconDean]

God wouldn't create people "evil" then burn them forever because they were created the way they were, ie, not their fault.

We have freewill. (I will note that I believe in eternal security aswell).

I agree that man has a "freewill".

I just disagree with the popular opinion on "free" the freewill is.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Rick Otto]

Grace, or any other form of God's love can be rejected. It is possible. Now God can make it very difficult to resist His love, but it can be rejected.

I think that is true. I also think that saving grace, the grace imparted for the intention of imparting faith through specific grace, is irresistible.

 

[Rick Otto]

If one is in the enviable position to attend the Divine Liturgy daily, then the New Testament is opened for them every day.

That's the problem with having a separate priesthood, imo.
They perform what is supposed to be the individual's responsibility, just like at Sinai with the Levites.