Free will/predestination

[St_Worm2]

Jesus Blood is our only Hope

Hi RT, it's true that the Lord's death was absolutely necessary for us to be saved, but His "life" was equally so, yes, IOW, the perfect life He led for us so that in Him, we might become the very "righteousness of God" (righteousness being far more than simply the absence of sin).

21 "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" ~2 Corinthians 5

Our hope is also found most directly in the Father's gracious choice to save us, which is to say, in His promise to be merciful towards us and save us on the basis of His Son's life, death, and resurrection .. i.e. Ephesians 2:8-9; cf Titus 3:5.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, { So what is God's Will ? }

Just to be clear, St. Paul was addressing "saints" in this letter (see Ephesians 1:1), not reprobates. God's will (v4-6) is that those of us He "chose", those who are the "elect", those He "predestined", would become His adopted children (and as if that alone was not enough of a blessing, that we would also inherit His Son's very nature). Salvation is of God alone, Soli Deo gloria You continue:

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Pet 3:9

And so we all shall, thanks to God .. be "saved" that is. Like Ephesians, 2 Peter is written to "saints", so 2 Peter 3:9 is written to and about the "elect" alone.

3 This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

We are predestined unto Christ Jesus' salvation, that is Gods will, that all should choose Jesus' Blood.

I do not deny that there is a sense in which God "desires" that all men would be saved (because as He told us plainly, He takes no pleasure in anyone's death .. Ezekiel 33:11). That said, the context of this passage speaks of all men without "distinction", not all men without "exception" (IOW, of Jews AND Gentiles, of men from every nation, tribe, tongue and/or rank .. v1-2).

In Christ,
David

 

[Revealing Times]

Nope. IF he did indeed "predestine" anyone or everyone to salvation, they would be saved, period.

If they have the choice to either accept or decline the offer...it's not "predestination." That means that every time "predestine" or "predestined" appears in Scripture, your theory is being refuted.

Its funny. All three of you do not have a clue.

You can not grasp simple truths. God predestined that all would be saved by giving us a SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS. It is amazing you do not understand that a God that predetermined some to Heaven and some to hell is an EVIL GOD. It doesn't even fit in anything that God would ever be about. It is laughable that anyone could even suggest it.

 

[Albion]

Its funny. All three of you do not have a clue.

You can not grasp simple truths. God predestined that all would be saved by giving us a SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS.

If so, then all people will be saved.

It is amazing you do not understand that a God that predetermined some to Heaven and some to hell is an EVIL GOD. It doesn't even fit in anything that God would ever be about. It is laughable that anyone could even suggest it.

Its funny. All three of you do not have a clue.

You can not grasp simple truths.

God predestined that all would be saved by giving us a SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS.

I do not believe that God has determined prior to our births that every living human will be saved. The Bible simply teaches otherwise.

 

[TaylorSexton]

It is amazing you do not understand that a God that predetermined some to Heaven and some to hell is an EVIL GOD. It doesn't even fit in anything that God would ever be about. It is laughable that anyone could even suggest it.

Then perhaps the God of Scripture in your eyes is evil.

"Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?" (Romans 9:21, ESV).

 

[St_Worm2]

Its funny. All three of you do not have a clue.

You can not grasp simple truths. God predestined that all would be saved by giving us a SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS. It is amazing you do not understand that a God that predetermined some to Heaven and some to hell is an EVIL GOD. It doesn't even fit in anything that God would ever be about. It is laughable that anyone could even suggest it.

Hi RT, as much as we like to talk/muse about the negative side of predestination, Biblically, predestination only has "one" side. It always speaks to God's saving of a remnant out of the lot of us who are all rushing headlong toward our own destruction. Quite frankly, God has no reason to predestine anyone to damnation since that's what we've all chosen for ourselves anyway .. Romans 3:10-12; Romans 3:23 ... since the days of our first parents.

You are, of course, free to believe whatever you'd like to about God and what He's trying to teach us about salvation. But presuppositions can be dangerous things, especially if abiding by one requires a partial or complete rewriting of certain parts of the word of God. I know, because I used to believe exactly what you do, so I also applied the same presuppositions that you use to interpret the Bible back then (and just look, for instance, at what trying to make your presupposition work has forced you do with your eisegesis of Romans 8:30 ).

It wasn't until I started wondering why 'I' chose to believe, while most of my much more worthy friends, family members and neighbors didn't, that I began to look a little bit more carefully at what the Bible is actually saying, especially where soteriology is concerned.

Yours in Christ,
David

 

[Rick Otto]

Its funny. All three of you do not have a clue.

You can not grasp simple truths. God predestined that all would be saved by giving us a SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS. It is amazing you do not understand that a God that predetermined some to Heaven and some to hell is an EVIL GOD. It doesn't even fit in anything that God would ever be about. It is laughable that anyone could even suggest it.

Better sober up, then.
God wasn't writing that to everyone, He was addressing believers.
"The whole world" was only intended to reply in contradistinction to "salvation is only for Israel".

 

[DeaconDean]

There is no predestination of " CERTAIN PEOPLE" that poppycock. God Predestined us all to Salvation via the Blood of Jesus Christ. We are ALL ELECTED to Heaven by the Blood of Jesus who was slain before the foundation of the world. Some just chose not to accept that free gift of Salvation. God foreknowing our choices, does not mean our choices were directed by Him. God choose us all, for His desire is that all men should be save.

Predestination is against Gods nature. Don't listen to it.

Question: Where is salvation via the blood of Christ to all in the OT?

How do you account of God's election of Israel in Deut. 7: 6-7?

Have you ever actually studied to see what "predestination" actually means according to scripture?

Election after salvation puts the cart before the horse.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Its funny. All three of you do not have a clue.

You can not grasp simple truths. God predestined that all would be saved by giving us a SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS. It is amazing you do not understand that a God that predetermined some to Heaven and some to hell is an EVIL GOD. It doesn't even fit in anything that God would ever be about. It is laughable that anyone could even suggest it.

What is funny is that you do not see that according to the Old Testament scripture, "salvation is of the Jew".

In the OT, if you were not a Hebrew (Jew), then you were a Gentile and Gentiles were excluded. Plain and simple.

How many billions perished in their sins prior to Jesus' sacrifice?

God did not have to be merciful to anyone.

"Ay yi yi"

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Revealing Times]

Question: Where is salvation via the blood of Christ to all in the OT?

How do you account of God's election of Israel in Deut. 7: 6-7?

Have you ever actually studied to see what "predestination" actually means according to scripture?

Election after salvation puts the cart before the horse.

God Bless

Till all are one.

The Old Testament Saints salvation was the same as ours, Jesus was Crucified before the foundation of the world. Election is by the blood. You must receive it by faith, the same thing that Abraham did. He believed God so it was accounted as righteousness unto him. Predestined unto Christ Jesus, meaning God foreknew we would need a Sacrifice.

God does not choose some and not others, that is a besmirch unto Gods great and Holy name. God choose us all.

 

[Revealing Times]

What is funny is that you do not see that according to the Old Testament scripture, "salvation is of the Jew".

In the OT, if you were not a Hebrew (Jew), then you were a Gentile and Gentiles were excluded. Plain and simple.

How many billions perished in their sins prior to Jesus' sacrifice?

God did not have to be merciful to anyone.

"Ay yi yi"

God Bless

Till all are one.

Salvation is of Jesus Christ, who was a Jew. But he was the Sacrifice rejected.

 

[St_Worm2]

Election is by the blood.

Hi RT, what do you mean by that Also, where can I find such a statement, either directly or by inference, in the Bible?

Thanks!

--David

"False Christs and false prophets will arise and
will show great signs & wonders, so as to
mislead, if possible, even the elect"
Matt 24:24​

 

[Revealing Times]

Hi RT, what do you mean by that Also, where can I find such a statement, either directly or by inference, in the Bible?

Thanks!

--David

"False Christs and false prophets will arise and
will show great signs & wonders, so as to
mislead, if possible, even the elect"
Matt 24:24​

Sure, no problem..............1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, ( God knew we would need a sacrifice, so he predestined us to all be able to rejoin or be grafted back into the family of God through Jesus Christ. We have Free Will, we have to choose to accept this pardon. )

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. ( So if God predestined some to hell and some to Heaven, why is it that scriptures say that He is not willing (NOT HIS WILL) that any should perish (GO TO HELL) but that all should come unto God ? Its because scriptures about predestination are clearly misunderstood by some. )

1 Timothy 2:3 This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. ( God can not predestine some to heaven and some to hell and desire all to be in Heaven, it is Nonsensical. )

The real rub is people do not understand that God elected us all through Jesus Blood to become heirs with Jesus Christ But then we get another problem in Romans chapter 9-11, people do not even understand what these three chapters are even about. There are to the Romans not the Jews. Paul in this Epistle ( Letters are never great, they give you the answers, but not the questions asked in the other letter. Paul never meant them to be scriptures, so he was not expounding things out in much detail. ) is rebuking the Romans, telling them not to be full of themselves, but trying to do it in a gentile manner. They were full of themselves no doubt because they perceived that they had been given dispensation of the Gospel ( and the Church was given this, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled ) and it had been taken away from Israel, who had Rejected Jesus Christ. Paul Rebukes them and says don't you know that God can use who he pleases ? Do not think that God will not Graft Israel back into the Family. For God elects to serve whom He will. This has NOTHING TO DO with Election to Salvation (Rom. 9-11) but is speaking of Election to Service. I will prove it by going through each verse in a latter post.

 

[DeaconDean]

The Old Testament Saints salvation was the same as ours, Jesus was Crucified before the foundation of the world. Election is by the blood. You must receive it by faith, the same thing that Abraham did. He believed God so it was accounted as righteousness unto him. Predestined unto Christ Jesus, meaning God foreknew we would need a Sacrifice.

God does not choose some and not others, that is a besmirch unto Gods great and Holy name. God choose us all.

You still did not answer the question of Israel's divine election according to Deut 7.

Prior to the Advent, there was but one way, and was through the High Priest in the Temple.

That is according to scripture and you can't dance around that.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[St_Worm2]

Sure, no problem..............1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Hi RT, I'm still not sure what "ELECTION by the blood" means? If you would be so kind, please elaborate

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, ~Ephesians 1:5

( God knew we would need a sacrifice, so he predestined us to all be able to rejoin or be grafted back into the family of God through Jesus Christ. We have Free Will, we have to choose to accept this pardon. )

The letter of Ephesians was written by St. Paul to a specific group of people, the "saints" (see Ephesians 1:1), not to the whole of mankind, so I'm not sure what this has to do with either, "Election by the blood" (whatever that happens to be ), or with a UNIVERSAL election? Neither seem to be addressed here (that I can see anyway).

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. ~2 Peter 3:9

( So if God predestined some to hell and some to Heaven, why is it that scriptures say that He is not willing (NOT HIS WILL) that any should perish (GO TO HELL) but that all should come unto God ? Its because scriptures about predestination are clearly misunderstood by some. )

Here again, God, through the pen of St. Peter, is addressing the "saints", not the reprobate, and is saying that He is not willing that any of us ("saints") should perish and is long-suffering towards us for that reason. God is omniscient. Even if I believed that God made his choice of me based upon my choice of Him, He KNOWS who will be saved and who will not be. He is long-suffering toward "saints" coming to repentance, not "reprobates".

3 This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. ~1 Timothy 2

( God can not predestine some to heaven and some to hell and desire all to be in Heaven, it is Nonsensical. )

God "desires" that all men would remain sinless, yet His "desire" is not fulfilled, is it?

And as I mentioned earlier in the thread, Biblically, God "predestines" men to Heaven alone, none are predestined by Him to Hell, that's something we've ALL chosen of our own accord. Saints are ones whose "free will" choice to reject God is interfered with (by God). As I also mentioned earlier in this thread, it was God's choice to save a remnant out of the lot of us who have all been willfully marching headlong toward our own destruction (since the days of our progenitors). IOW, God decided that He was not going to allow all of us to perish

Gotta go right now, so I'll wait for you to answer before proceeding onto Romans 9-11. One quick question about one of your following statements however. Referring to Romans 9-11, you said, "Paul never meant them to be scriptures".

What do you mean by that?

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

 

[DeaconDean]

The letter of Ephesians was written by St. Paul to a specific group of people, the "saints" (see Ephesians 1:1), not to the whole of mankind, so I'm not sure what this has to do with either, "Election by the blood" (whatever that happens to be ), or with a UNIVERSAL election? Neither seem to be addressed here (that I can see anyway).

Here again, God, through the pen of St. Peter, is addressing the "saints", not the reprobate, and is saying that He is not willing that any of us ("saints") should perish and is long-suffering towards us for that reason. God is omniscient. Even if I believed that God made his choice of me based upon my choice of Him, He KNOWS who will be saved and who will not be. He is long-suffering toward "saints" coming to repentance, not "reprobates".

Good Point! I can't understand why people take the Epistles, which were written only to "Saints", rather "Christians" and want to apply them to every man?

Outside the Gospel message, there is nothing written to sinners.

And as I mentioned earlier in the thread, Biblically, God "predestines" men to Heaven alone,

Just a note here brother.

According to Romans 8:29, we are "predestinated" to "be conformed to the image of Christ".

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[St_Worm2]

According to Romans 8:29, we are "predestinated" to "be conformed to the image of Christ".

True enough However, in this particular case, the wording of my post was in response to RT's post and his "wording" there. That said, again, you are very correct about that

In Christ,
David

 

[DeaconDean]

True enough However, in this particular case, the wording of my post was in response to RT's post and his "wording" there. That said, again, you are very correct about that

In Christ,
David

Np friend, its just I have been in numerous debates in this area on just that point alone (predestination) and I thought it was worthy of mentioning.

I enjoy your posts very much.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Election is by the blood.

Not according to Deut. 7:6-7

Scriptures say:

"For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:" -Deut. 7:6-7 (KJV)

In the Hebrew, the word here rendered "chosen, choose" is "bachar".

Hebrew Lexicon #977

Do you know what it means?

" to choose, elect, decide for

1. (Qal) to choose
2. (Niphal) to be chosen
3. (Pual) to be chosen, selected

Link

So a proper rendering also would be:

"For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath "elected" thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor "elected" you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

Sorry.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Revealing Times]

You still did not answer the question of Israel's divine election according to Deut 7.

Prior to the Advent, there was but one way, and was through the High Priest in the Temple.

That is according to scripture and you can't dance around that.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I have already answered that above. But Deut. 7 6-7 is about Israel's election to serve God, just because they were Gods Chosen people (to bring forth the Messiah) doesn't mean that all Israelis made it to Heaven. The High Priest was not the way to Heaven per se. That was Israels problem when Jesus came (They were blinded by the Law) the Promise of Jesus coming is what Justified Abraham, because he believed God. For it was counted as Righteousness to Abraham because he Believed God. Their Salvation was by Faith. Not by the Law, just like ours, Yeshua means Salvation in Hebrew, any time you see Yeshua (Salvation) in the Old Testament it is speaking about Jesus who is our is our Salvation. No one can be Justified by the Law....NO ONE.

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

The Law came 430 Years after the Promise. It was NEVER THE LAW, and always the PROMISE ( Of the Coming Messiah) that Justified Gods people. Go Read the Old Testament in Hebrew (Hebrew Study Guide) and where you see Yeshua or Salvation Replace it with Jesus because Salvation/Yeshua in the Old Testament means Jesus.

Lets play some word games brother to see if this is clear, I know I might be confusing some so let me transcribe a few posts to show what I am speaking about and compare them. I did a study on this because many asked, why does the name Jesus never appear in the Old Testament. I found out it really does, quite a lot. We know he has Divine Titles Isaiah 7:14, 9:6 and Jeremiah 23:5-6. In The Old Testament they used names like Noah (Comfort) Moses (drawn-forth) to tell what the Child was going to be. The Angel told Mary and Joseph to name the child Jesus (Yeshua/Salvation) because he would save his people from their sins.

When the Jacob was ready to depart from this world, he by the Holy Spirit was blessing his sons and prophetically foretelling their future experiences in those blessings. In Genesis 49:18 he says, I have waited for thy salvation, 0 Lord ! What he really said and meant was, "To thy YESHUA (Jesus) I am looking, 0 Lord" or, "In thy YESHUA (Jesus) I am hoping (trusting), Lord!" That makes much better sense.

Of course YESHUA (Jesus) was the One in Whom Jacob was trusting to carry him safely over the chilly waters of the river of death. Jacob was a saved man, and did not wait until his dying moments to start trusting in the Lord. He just reminded God that he was at the same time trusting in Him still.

In Psalm 9:14 David says I will rejoice in Salvation, what that means is he will rejoice in Jesus.

In Isaiah 12:2-3 we have tri-effect. Here SALVATION is mentioned three times. Let me give them as they actually read in the original Hebrew with Jesus as the embodiment and personification of the word SALVATION: Behold, might (or, God the mighty One) is my YESHUA (Jesus-in His pre-incarnation and eternal existence); I will trust and not be afraid:, for JAH-JAHOVAH is my strength and my song; He also is become my YESHUA (Jesus)....

And the WORD (Jesus incarnate) became flesh, and dwelt among us. (John 1:14). ... Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of YESHUA ( Jesus - waters of salvation flowing forth from Golgotha. Amen )

Isaiah 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord Jehovah is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation. 3 Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation.

Jesus has always been our Salvation. He was slain before the foundation of the world. Rev. 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[Revealing Times]

Hi RT, I'm still not sure what "ELECTION by the blood" means? If you would be so kind, please elaborate

Really nothing I can add. We are Elected to Heaven via Jesus' blood, it is the only way to Heaven.

The letter of Ephesians was written by St. Paul to a specific group of people, the "saints" (see Ephesians 1:1), not to the whole of mankind, so I'm not sure what this has to do with either, "Election by the blood" (whatever that happens to be ), or with a UNIVERSAL election? Neither seem to be addressed here (that I can see anyway).

The Letter was unto Christians, explaining to them how you become a Christian. All Christians must become Christians in the same manor. Through the Blood of Jesus Christ. This is elementary here. It doesn't matter who he was speaking to.

Here again, God, through the pen of St. Peter, is addressing the "saints", not the reprobate, and is saying that He is not willing that any of us ("saints") should perish and is long-suffering towards us for that reason. God is omniscient. Even if I believed that God made his choice of me based upon my choice of Him, He KNOWS who will be saved and who will not be. He is long-suffering toward "saints" coming to repentance, not "reprobates".

Peter is addressing Christians who were called just like everyone was called. Jesus died for everyone, not just some.

God "desires" that all men would remain sinless, yet His "desire" is not fulfilled, is it?

And as I mentioned earlier in the thread, Biblically, God "predestines" men to Heaven alone, none are predestined by Him to Hell, that's something we've ALL chosen of our own accord. Saints are ones whose "free will" choice to reject God is interfered with (by God). As I also mentioned earlier in this thread, it was God's choice to save a remnant out of the lot of us who have all been willfully marching headlong toward our own destruction (since the days of our progenitors). IOW, God decided that He was not going to allow all of us to perish

Gotta go right now, so I'll wait for you to answer before proceeding onto Romans 9-11. One quick question about one of your following statements however. Referring to Romans 9-11, you said, "Paul never meant them to be scriptures".

What do you mean by that?

God can't predestine some to heaven with out predestining some to hell. It can't work like that now can it ? God has predestined us all to Heaven in Jesus Christ, but who will accept Jesus and who will reject Jesus. God will save All Israel, at the end, while the Church is in Heaven.

Take for instance 2 Thess. 2, the passage is speaking about the Church Departing, apostisia was used and in the first 7 ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS the word Depart was used, not Falling Away, the gist is it seems the KJV people used Falling Away to try and besmirch the RCC. The KJV was the first to use "Falling Away". It is actually the Church Departing. Paul also says when that that is withholding stops withholding, he will be taken out of the way. Well the Church is the Hold up, we have to Preach the Gospel unto the end of the world before the Man of Sin can come forth, that is an easy call there. When our Job is finished, the Holy Spirit will quit blocking Satan from bringing forth his Anti-Christ (so to speak).

If Paul actually knew these "Letters" would become scriptures, he would have expounded more instead of saying to the Thessalonians, You remember, we discussed that when I was with you, and he left it vague, why write about something you have already discussed in detail ? We never get to see the Thessalonians questions/letters to Paul, what if they asked him when the Church was Departing ? What if they said HEY PAUL, you said we would be Raptuued before the Day of the Lord came but some people are telling us the Day of the Lord is upon us ( This is what I think they actually asked Paul.) Because Paul tells them dont listen to those people, we will be gathered unto Christ before the Day of the Lord (Gods Wrath) comes.

My point is, Paul was writing Letters, do you think if he thought these letters would become Church Doctrine he would have Expounded in much more detail ? I do. He was using the least amount of writing to get the message across, dont we all when we write ? Why not just write, you remember when we talked about those things ? If Paul thought his letters would have become doctrine, no doubt he would have detailed many things instead of leaving some things vague. Letters are just not the same as a Prophet saying, "Thus saith the Lord."