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Free Will or Predestination

nobdysfool

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Why does everyone always split when the conversation gets deep and difficult? Or do I just have an uncanny ability at running people off? Im beginning to develop a complex.

You aren't alone in that. Happens to me a lot. Sometimes I have marveled at my seeming talent for clearing out a thread....A talent I would gladly trade for more Godly wisdom.....
 
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Robs07M6S

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I haven't split Rob. I read every one of your posts. Well I may have missed a few.:)

I only post when I think I have something worth listening to or may be helpful. I am not interested in arguing with those who aren't intersted in hearing.


I cant figure out if this is an insult or a compliment?
 
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twin1954

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I cant figure out if this is an insult or a compliment?
I read your posts because you have a special place in my heart. I don't post because I will not argue with all the other folks who post. At the same time you don't seem to listen to what I tell you. I often feel as though I am wasting my words. So I guess you could say it was both though it wasn't intended that way.
 
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Robs07M6S

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At the same time you don't seem to listen to what I tell you.

That isnt true, at all. I do listen to what you say but it certainly doesnt mean that I will not continue to struggle with certain passages. Dont mistake my struggles for anything other than that which it is...... a struggle.

I often feel as though I am wasting my words.

Im sorry that you feel that way, if it makes you feel any better I often feel the same way when many of my concerns are never addressed because they dont fit in with someones theology etc.

Most of Hebrews I think I now have a good grasp on, however no one has ever really explained passages 12:15-17 and I feel most avoid it because it seems to show that man is responsible for grasping or laying hold of the Grace which is given to all by God.
 
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twin1954

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That isnt true, at all. I do listen to what you say but it certainly doesnt mean that I will not continue to struggle with certain passages. Dont mistake my struggles for anything other than that which it is...... a struggle.



Im sorry that you feel that way, if it makes you feel any better I often feel the same way when many of my concerns are never addressed because they dont fit in with someones theology etc.

Most of Hebrews I think I now have a good grasp on, however no one has ever really explained passages 12:15-17 and I feel most avoid it because it seems to show that man is responsible for grasping or laying hold of the Grace which is given to all by God.
The repentance that Esau sought was not repentance for his sin but that his father would repent of having given the blessing to Jacob. Read Gen. 27:30-40
 
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Robs07M6S

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The repentance that Esau sought was not repentance for his sin but that his father would repent of having given the blessing to Jacob. Read Gen. 27:30-40


Yes sir that is correct, now how do we line this up with Hebrews 12:15-17?

I think before this can be answered one must have a correct understanding of why the book of Hebrews was written in the first place. Not saying that you dont, but you know what I mean.

The old and new testament often compliment each other and this is just one of those examples.
 
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Robs07M6S

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Commentary from Mathew Henry:

12:12-17 A burden of affliction is apt to make the Christian's hands hang down, and his knees grow feeble, to dispirit him and discourage him; but against this he must strive, that he may better run his spiritual race and course. Faith and patience enable believers to follow peace and holiness, as a man follows his calling constantly, diligently, and with pleasure. Peace with men, of all sects and parties, will be favourable to our pursuit of holiness. But peace and holiness go together; there can be not right peace without holiness. Where persons fail of having the true grace of God, corruption will prevail and break forth; beware lest any unmortified lust in the heart, which seems to be dead, should spring up, to trouble and disturb the whole body. Falling away from Christ is the fruit of preferring the delights of the flesh, to the blessing of God, and the heavenly inheritance, as Esau did. But sinners will not always have such mean thoughts of the Divine blessing and inheritance as they now have. It agrees with the profane man's disposition, to desire the blessing, yet to despise the means whereby the blessing is to be gained. But God will neither sever the means from the blessing, nor join the blessing with the satisfying of man's lusts. God's mercy and blessing were never sought carefully and not obtained.

Hebrews 12:15 See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.
 
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twin1954

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Commentary from Mathew Henry:

12:12-17 A burden of affliction is apt to make the Christian's hands hang down, and his knees grow feeble, to dispirit him and discourage him; but against this he must strive, that he may better run his spiritual race and course. Faith and patience enable believers to follow peace and holiness, as a man follows his calling constantly, diligently, and with pleasure. Peace with men, of all sects and parties, will be favourable to our pursuit of holiness. But peace and holiness go together; there can be not right peace without holiness. Where persons fail of having the true grace of God, corruption will prevail and break forth; beware lest any unmortified lust in the heart, which seems to be dead, should spring up, to trouble and disturb the whole body. Falling away from Christ is the fruit of preferring the delights of the flesh, to the blessing of God, and the heavenly inheritance, as Esau did. But sinners will not always have such mean thoughts of the Divine blessing and inheritance as they now have. It agrees with the profane man's disposition, to desire the blessing, yet to despise the means whereby the blessing is to be gained. But God will neither sever the means from the blessing, nor join the blessing with the satisfying of man's lusts. God's mercy and blessing were never sought carefully and not obtained.

Hebrews 12:15 See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.
I will give you an exposition of the passage in the next 2 days I promise. It will be by PM though. As I said I ain't interested in arguing with others.
 
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iLogos

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I am currently reading a book on The Word called,

Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Boettner.

All I can say is this guy is really good at outlining Calvinism.

Makes very strong points difficult to refute!

If you have The Word you might want to install his book.

Here's the pdf for those who do not have the Word [Here]
 
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Robs07M6S

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I just dont understand how it can be said that its the non elects fault for not repenting and believing when they clearly didnt recieve the effectual call that only the elect recieve. Yes God commands all men everywhere to repent but only those who recieve this special grace are the ones who will repent and believe.

The non elect are like the crippled who sits in a wheelchair all the while you stand over him telling him to get up and walk and then expecting him to be able to do so? I dont get it. sorry but i just dont get it.
 
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nobdysfool

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I just dont understand how it can be said that its the non elects fault for not repenting and believing when they clearly didnt recieve the effectual call that only the elect recieve. Yes God commands all men everywhere to repent but only those who recieve this special grace are the ones who will repent and believe.

The non elect are like the crippled who sits in a wheelchair all the while you stand over him telling him to get up and walk and then expecting him to be able to do so? I dont get it. sorry but i just dont get it.

If the only difference between the elect and non-elect were the effectual call, then you might have a point. However, that assumes that the non-elect are morally neutral, neither good or bad, and that they would willingly believe "if only they were given a chance".

The reality is, Adam sinned, and in so doing corrupted not only himself, but his offspring. All are born sinners. All sin at their earliest opportunity, not because they made a bad choice, but because it's their nature to sin, and thereby come under condemnation. All are born as "dead men walking". Because of their natures, all men freely choose condemnation, whether or not they know that they do. The truth is, deep down, they do know (Romans 1:18ff), and they not only sin anyway, they encourage others to sin, because they reject God.

Therefore, no injustice is worked on those whom God does not choose to call effectually, and by His Mercy, save them from certain condemnation.
 
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Vince53

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Since predestination does not refer to salvation, I believe in both predestination and free will. But technically, we don't have free will. God draws all men to Himself, giving us the grace of God that brings salvation. If God the Father did not draw all men to Christ by teaching them, no one could accept Christ.
 
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phoenixdem

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Since predestination does not refer to salvation, I believe in both predestination and free will. But technically, we don't have free will. God draws all men to Himself, giving us the grace of God that brings salvation. If God the Father did not draw all men to Christ by teaching them, no one could accept Christ.

You say that Predestination doesn't refer to salvation. What do you think it refers to?

How are we to interpret these verses if your interpretation is correct?

Eph

1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath
blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the
world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in
love:

1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus
Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us
accepted in the beloved.

1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of
sins, according to the riches of his grace;

1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to​
his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
 
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Hammster

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Robs07M6S said:
I just dont understand how it can be said that its the non elects fault for not repenting and believing when they clearly didnt recieve the effectual call that only the elect recieve. Yes God commands all men everywhere to repent but only those who recieve this special grace are the ones who will repent and believe.

The non elect are like the crippled who sits in a wheelchair all the while you stand over him telling him to get up and walk and then expecting him to be able to do so? I dont get it. sorry but i just dont get it.

You are confusing physical inability with moral inability. The reprobate are physically able to repent. They just don't care.
 
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Robs07M6S

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If the only difference between the elect and non-elect were the effectual call, then you might have a point. However, that assumes that the non-elect are morally neutral, neither good or bad, and that they would willingly believe "if only they were given a chance".

No, I do understand that everyone is born dead in sins and trespasses but I dont see how that negates my point that the only reason that YOU yourself was able to repent and believe is because God granted it to you while simply choosing not to grant it to others.

But you see there is a problem with this and I think its found in Heb 12:15-17 where we see its mans responsibility to not MISS the grace of God.
 
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Robs07M6S

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Remember the point of discipline isn’t punishment. Their punishment will either be God pouring His wrath on them in the future or The wrath has already been paid for in death of Christ. The difference in where the wrath resides is if someone is truly a believer and that is where repentance is needed. Where there is no repentance there can be no forgiveness of sins. If you are of the elect God may allow you stray for a bit but you will come to repentance. If you are not elect you may be fooling yourself and others by your appearance of Christianity but when push comes to shove you will chose the fleeting pleasures of sin over repentance and eternal communion with Christ. This is brings us to verses 15 -17:
[15] See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; [16] that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. [17] For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.
(Hebrews 12:15-17 ESV)
These verses demonstrate that there is a point of no return. This point is only known to God Himself but once you cross the line there is no repentance, even you seek it to the point of tears. I find it very interesting that the writer goes from the “root of bitterness” causing defilement to sexually immoral to “unholy like Esau.” What Esau became was in fact bitter about his own sin of selling his brithright to his brother for a meal, but what does being sexually immoral have to do with Esau? I think this what the writer truly is talking about.

Bitterness has caused many people to become sexually immoral. Sometimes it is a way to get back at the other and others have given up on the marriage because they hold something against them. Either way or both many people feel like when they are sinning they are justified or that it is ok because “God has to forgive me so I can do what I want.” When presented with this argument most counselors immediately go to Romans 6. That is a great passage but may not really have the stinging effect that responding to them with “What if God doesn’t have to forgive you?” has. I know this is hard to swallow and it has taken some time for this to really settle with me, but repentance is a gift and if we refuse it until our sin is fully formed we may be to late.

The story that I’m sure everyone is thinking about now is David and Bathsheba. I mean no sexually immoral sin has ever been more fully committed than this one. He committed adultery, tried to trick her husband, and when that didn’t work he killed him. This was fully formed and executed but God forgave him so God has to forgive me right? Well David was also running stupid without the Holy Spirit and he did repent as soon as someone brought attention to it. If you have thought through your sin enough to fully know it is sin, that you need to repent, have I’ll formed what you will say to those who confront you and yet still don’t repent, you are in a completely different situation. But what about Esau? He was blindsided by his sin and was unable to receive repentance when he sought it. He didn’t seek it until it was time the inheritance. He simply waited far to long to repent.

The point is you can’t be confronted and say, “I know it’s sin but I really want it so wait to the divorce is final, and I have married another to repent.” You have more than likely crossed the line. Once again I cannot speak on behalf of God as to where the line is but I feel confidant in saying that is probably crossing the line. I am not saying that everyone who is divorced is going to the lake of fire. The Bible allows for divorce in very specific situations. Some people were not believers when they got divorced and many are not divorced by their own choice. I am speaking solely about those who are believer’s and are divorcing for their own lusts. Now obviously divorce and “sexually immoral” are also just an example of many things that if we ignore or excuse so we can hold unto our sin until God removes the gift of repentance and showing us that we are not truly His chosen.

With all that said I pray that by reading this some who are heading down the path of no return repent and take their pleasure in God and enjoy him forever. I also pray that if someone knows someone who walking down that path that we will be strong enough to confront them before it is to late. As Martin Luther wrote in his 95 theses the Christian’s life is to be one of repentance. We cannot repent of sin we doesn’t know exists and sometimes we know it exists but we need the prodding of our friends. Let us spur (irritate) one another up to love and good works (Hebrews 10:24) so that we may be able to live a life of repentance, while God is still willing to give it to us.

Musings of a Contemporary Calvinist
 
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