"Free Will Is A Fiction"

[Anto9us]

Isa 65:12

Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

 

[Anto9us]

Phl 1:21
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Phl 1:22
But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

Phl 1:23
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:


Paul said he did not know what he would choose; he did not say he COULD NOT choose.

 

[Anto9us]

Luther was in error in his virulent Anti-Semitism; he was in error in his ideas in Bondage of the Will, Luther was not infallible -- though the Lord used him to do much good.

But he was not Jesus.

And Orthodox probably look in horror on the carnage of "Christian against Christian" in the Reformation/Counter-Reformation -- burnings at the stake, massacres, good gosh.

 

[redleghunter]

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Deu 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

All you Non-Free-Willers make a mockery of God in the above two verses -- God is a liar if there is no free will -- how could God CALL FOR A CHOICE from humans if they are unable to make one?

"A" is not "Non-A".

If God calls people to choose, then they have a choice.

Yes they must be called.

 

[Anto9us]

Num 26:64
But among these there was not a man of them whom Moses and Aaron the priest numbered, when they numbered the children of Israel in the wilderness of Sinai.

Num 26:65
For the LORD had said of them, They shall surely die in the wilderness. And there was not left a man of them, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.

Caleb and Joshua were the only two spies that did not want to shrink back from taking the land.

 

[Anto9us]

Heb 11:31

By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

 

[Anto9us]

God CALLED out of Egypt many thousands -- like 600 thousand or more -- only Caleb and Joshua went into the Promised Land, Moses saw it from afar.

 

[Anto9us]

Heb 12:25
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Kinda punches a hole in "Irresistible Grace" -- a concept from Calvinism, not from Christianity.

 

[Anto9us]

Heb 12:15
Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

Heb 12:16
Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

Heb 12:17
For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

 

[Anto9us]

1Co 10:1
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

1Co 10:2
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

1Co 10:3
And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

1Co 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

1Co 10:5
But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I think the more threatening question involves our biology and conditioning. For example, can an atheist choose to believe in God? Can a child born into a racist family not be racist?

 

[Rescued One]

I was just making a point, repentance doesn't come to us of our own doing, God brings us under conviction. Now at some level we have to accept it, even submit and I'm sure you know what that is all about because as a believer you went through it. Understanding the gospel, you can't do that without God's influence right, God must make known the truth of the gospel to you or you will never get it right?

I agree.

2 Timothy 2
24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

I believe that Ephesians 1 says that God chose/predestined those who believe (anyone who will believe), predestined those who hope in God (anyone who puts his/her hope in him).

In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe.

The problem is no one believes unless God allows them to believe...psalm14,romans3

 

[zoidar]

The problem is no one believes unless God allows them to believe...psalm14,romans3

You make it sound like God doesn't want everyone to believe, but He does!

 

[redleghunter]

The problem is no one believes unless God allows them to believe...psalm14,romans3

And I would add this too:

I say to the Lord, “You are my Lord;
I have no good apart from you.” (Psalm 16:2)

 

[redleghunter]

You make it sound like God doesn't want everyone to believe, but He does!

I think what he meant was this:

Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognise the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. Romans 9:5 From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, Your seed shall be as the stars of heaven. All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. (1 Clement 32)​

CHURCH FATHERS: Letter to the Corinthians (Clement)

 

[zoidar]

I think what he meant was this:

Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognise the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. Romans 9:5 From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, Your seed shall be as the stars of heaven. All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. (1 Clement 32)​

CHURCH FATHERS: Letter to the Corinthians (Clement)

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. It has from the beginning been faith that justifies, we can never be justified without faith. How we find the gift of faith is another matter.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

You make it sound like God doesn't want everyone to believe, but He does!

God has indeed commanded all men everywhere to repent..Acts17.
The fall has left men dead in sin to a point they will not seek God.
Jesus seeks out His sheep.He finds all that are His.

 

[Rescued One]

You make it sound like God doesn't want everyone to believe, but He does!

But you make Him sound unable or unwilling to bring to pass that desire.

 

[zoidar]

But you make Him sound unable or unwilling to bring to pass that desire.

Of course God can, and is willing if His condition is met. That is repentance. He wants everyone to repent so He can give us eternal life. But He is letting us choose. He isn't forcing anyone.

Then maybe you will say that can't God bring a person to repentance if He chooses? As much as God wants everyone to be saved, and wants everyone to repent, still not everyone does. This is the mystery. There could be lot of different answers to this. One might be, we have a free will, and God is respecting that. Another answer is that there is an enemy that is doing his outmost to see that no one repents.