"Free Will Is A Fiction"

[ebedmelech]

Foreknowledge, which can be termed as "infinite knowledge", in my opinion has no bearing on our free will. We can see it in our own finite lives examples of knowing something in advance will result in a certain outcome. In simplistic terms, its like taking a step, it will result in a forward or backward motion. We do it freely and we know the outcome ahead of time, motion. So if God already knows the outcome of our actions, it does not mean that He interfered with our will to decided to take that step it just means that He knows the outcome just like we do.

We have a problem then. Consider Romans 9:6-33. Is what's going on there because of the choice of a Sovereign God or the free will of people?

Just something to consider.

Then we have Ephesians 1...

 

[Anto9us]

Anybody ever heard of THE FREE WILL OFFERING in the Old Testament?

Would Yahweh accept such offerings if Free Will did not exist?

 

[zoidar]

Oh my, but that is an interesting question. There was a time of decision, new birth and regeneration, that's what the gospel is all about, I'd love to hear your testimony some time. Let me ask you this, before you had your time of decision, God brought you under conviction right? It's not a trick question, I have a point.

It's a long story. Things happened that brought me to conviction. Was it God's doing, I don't know, some of it probably.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

We have a problem then. Consider Romans 9:6-33. Is what's going on there because of the choice of a Sovereign God or the free will of people?

Just something to consider.

Then we have Ephesians 1...

My take on Ephesians 1:
“Us in Him” meaning Christians.
We are the group chosen before the” foundation of the world”. Not Muslims, not Hindu’s, not Buddhists, etc. This is what Paul meant by these words “us in him”. God chose those who are in Christ to be holy and blameless before Him. One would need to become a Christian first , free will. Basically God chose those who chose Christ and not God chose who would be in Christ.

As far as Romans, once this is clear, all is clear.
Blessings

 

[redleghunter]

Anybody ever heard of THE FREE WILL OFFERING in the Old Testament?

Would Yahweh accept such offerings if Free Will did not exist?

They were commands weren’t they?

 

[mark kennedy]

It's a long story. Things happened that brought me to conviction. Was it God's doing, some of it maybe.

I was just making a point, repentance doesn't come to us of our own doing, God brings us under conviction. Now at some level we have to accept it, even submit and I'm sure you know what that is all about because as a believer you went through it. Understanding the gospel, you can't do that without God's influence right, God must make known the truth of the gospel to you or you will never get it right?

 

[mark kennedy]

They were commands weren’t they?

Apparently the thanksgiving offering and the sacrifice of the peace offering were free will offerings. The sacrifice of the peace offering was a meal, eaten before the Lord. The individual was probably not going to be able to eat an entire lamb so it's thought that they would have invited friends and family to join in. The sin offering was different, it was a purification rite, but the thanksgiving and sacrifice of the peace offering were more voluntary offerings. The command was if you offer one of these offerings this is how it's done, in many cases they were not compulsory.

 

[mark kennedy]

My take on Ephesians 1:
“Us in Him” meaning Christians.
We are the group chosen before the” foundation of the world”. Not Muslims, not Hindu’s, not Buddhists, etc. This is what Paul meant by these words “us in him”. God chose those who are in Christ to be holy and blameless before Him. One would need to become a Christian first , free will. Basically God chose those who chose Christ and not God chose who would be in Christ.

As far as Romans, once this is clear, all is clear.
Blessings

Paul in Ephesians 1 through the third chapter kept repeating the phrase 'in Christ' or it's equivalent. There is a reason he keeps emphasizing this as he goes through the doctrinal portion of the book. We have no free will with regards to how we are saved, that was decided before the foundation of the world. Free will is a factor, but human will is poisoned with sin, we are under the same curse as Adam, dying you shall die. God called some prophets from the womb. All we know for sure is that election is under the sovereign control of God, who has compassion on whom he will have compassion and mercy on whom he will have mercy. As far as free will, you do have a choice, serve sin as a slave of be a slave to righteousness. But getting you into a position where you can even make that choice requires a decisive act of God. The Most High is Sovereign, especially with regards to salvation.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Why would God sent someone to hell if that person has no free will?

People are in hell because of sins.

 

[zoidar]

I was just making a point, repentance doesn't come to us of our own doing, God brings us under conviction. Now at some level we have to accept it, even submit and I'm sure you know what that is all about because as a believer you went through it. Understanding the gospel, you can't do that without God's influence right, God must make known the truth of the gospel to you or you will never get it right?

Did I get to know the gospel because of God's choice or because of people's choice?

 

[redleghunter]

Paul in Ephesians 1 through the third chapter kept repeating the phrase 'in Christ' or it's equivalent. There is a reason he keeps emphasizing this as he goes through the doctrinal portion of the book. We have no free will with regards to how we are saved, that was decided before the foundation of the world. Free will is a factor, but human will is poisoned with sin, we are under the same curse as Adam, dying you shall die. God called some prophets from the womb. All we know for sure is that election is under the sovereign control of God, who has compassion on whom he will have compassion and mercy on whom he will have mercy. As far as free will, you do have a choice, serve sin as a slave of be a slave to righteousness. But getting you into a position where you can even make that choice requires a decisive act of God. The Most High is Sovereign, especially with regards to salvation.

As you indicated earlier:

Apart from regenerating grace, all people “suppress the truth in unrighteousness” (Romans 1:18).

John Piper expands on this here:

How Willingly Do People Go to Hell?

 

[zoidar]

Paul in Ephesians 1 through the third chapter kept repeating the phrase 'in Christ' or it's equivalent. There is a reason he keeps emphasizing this as he goes through the doctrinal portion of the book. We have no free will with regards to how we are saved, that was decided before the foundation of the world. Free will is a factor, but human will is poisoned with sin, we are under the same curse as Adam, dying you shall die. God called some prophets from the womb. All we know for sure is that election is under the sovereign control of God, who has compassion on whom he will have compassion and mercy on whom he will have mercy. As far as free will, you do have a choice, serve sin as a slave of be a slave to righteousness. But getting you into a position where you can even make that choice requires a decisive act of God. The Most High is Sovereign, especially with regards to salvation.

I believe that Ephesians 1 says that God chose/predestined those who believe (anyone who will believe), predestined those who hope in God (anyone who puts his/her hope in him).

In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe.

 

[LightLoveHope]

This is what Martin Luther said to Erasmus in his work The Bondage of the Will. This famous book was written in response to Erasmus' The Freedom of the Will. Some might be surprised, however, by the nature of their debate.

When Reformers like Luther denied the doctrine of free will, they were not denying that man needs to choose Christ in order to be saved. For the Reformers, the will was very important in salvation. Rather, the question that they concerned themselves with was this:

Does fallen man have the freedom to live a virtuous life? It was really not a question of ontological ability, but moral ability.

Erasmus and other semi-pelagians argued that fallen man maintains some spark of goodness and is able, all on his own, to recognize God, choose God, repent of his sin, and live a virtuous life. Luther, following Augustine, rather believed that man was entirely fallen and was morally unable to recognize God or to repent of his sin. In order for man to be saved, he needed for God to miraculously save him by reaching into his heart, regenerating him, and renewing his will. Only then could man freely choose God - his will being liberated by God.

Free will is a fiction not because of God's election or predestination. Free will is a fiction because fallen, sinful man hates God and is unable to freely choose him unless God changes his heart.

I agree with Luther. Man is irredeemiably lost.
As I have looked at my life our tendency to agree with those who are similar to ourselves and repeat the mistakes of our families is a cycle we are slaves to. We always justify ourselves, and for each hurt hit back, building up more and more defences until we lose who we really are.

Only Jesus can break this down, shine a light and bring life and hope to man.
Man is 100% responsible, and 100% guilty.

I do not though think we are lost is sin, and unable to walk according to Gods will once Christ has set us free. In fact the opposite is true, when love captivates and drives our hearts we are children of the most High, impossible to stop and always overflowing. Some mistake this for semi-pretenism, where I do not think apart for Jesus we can achieve anything in reality, before our King.

 

[LightLoveHope]

No they are not able to choose God. They are religious because man is essentially religious and can't live without God. Fallen man is simultaneously religious and desirous of worship, but he cannot stand to worship the true God. So he invents religions to devise ways of trying to control God or he creates false gods to worship. This explains all world religions.
They never really understand him for who he is and so never truly choose him.

I would add is humans desire an answer, a framework, and will build one out of whatever they can to stop this driving emotion that desires answers. And it is the blotting out of dealing with the real hypocrisy and evil we do, and replacing it with physical religious acts, which appease our guilt and self loathing while actually changing nothing, is what man is held prisoner by.

One classic example of this is "hyper grace" and the prosperity gospel, where self indulgence and dreams of power, grandiosity are wrapped in Christian language and told this is Gods blessing and affirmation of faith, where all illness will be healed and you are super people who will rule and dominate the world.
Everything about the corruption of wealth, the evil of self pampering and holding satan guilty of every disappointment, when God himself is rebuking them, it leads to error and destruction. So many lives have been hurt, damaged and destroyed while the preachers grow to be billionaires on the back of the lies, no wonder they love this message, give to them and you are giving to God.

 

[Anto9us]

They were commands weren’t they?

What? the Free will offerings were "commands"? I don't follow you.

Various types of offerings were by command, required for this or that situation -- FREE WILL offerings, as the term indicates, were at the Free Will of the offerer.

 

[Anto9us]

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Deu 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

All you Non-Free-Willers make a mockery of God in the above two verses -- God is a liar if there is no free will -- how could God CALL FOR A CHOICE from humans if they are unable to make one?

"A" is not "Non-A".

If God calls people to choose, then they have a choice.

 

[Anto9us]

Pro 1:29

For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

 

[Anto9us]

Pro 3:31

Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways.

 

[Anto9us]

Isa 7:16

For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

 

[Anto9us]

Isa 56:4

For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;