Rescued One
...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
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We never said He forces us. I believe He enables us. But I have to logout now.
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"Free Will Is A Fiction"
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We never said He forces us. I believe He enables us. But I have to logout now.
- Aug 21, 2003
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Good day, Zoidar
True he does not force as has been mentioned already by Phoebe Ann.
You said God wants every one to believe, But he does not get what he desires. So in you mind the eternal creator desires that which he can not get, and is for all of time unsatisfied.
I agree repentance is required.... But in order to do so repentance must be granted:
2 Ti 2:25 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
We teach, preach endure and correct with gentleness so that God may grant them repentance ( with out the grant they do not have it) which has the desired effect of leading them to knowledge of the truth, enabling them to escape (not enabled they can not escape) they are doing his will willingly.
If the Son sets them free they are free indeed... if the Son does not then they are trapped.
Thoughts??
IN Him,
Bill
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I'm not sure if "grant" is the best translation here. "Give" may be better. What reasons may there be for God giving a person repentance? Maybe because the person chooses by free will to listen to the gospel with an open heart.
I also believe God enables repentance, but believe we can resist or be open to His Spirit. So even the Holy Spirit wants us to repent, pulling us towards repentance we can harden our hearts.
God wants everyone saved, but at the same time he wants justice done. So He both desires everyone saved and the wicked destroyed at judgement. I'm sure God will be satisfied after judgement, since then there will no longer be a desire in God to save them.
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- Aug 21, 2003
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Good Day, Zoidar
Grant , Give it is a translation choice both work given the grammar.
The reason is in the text, which for some reason you did not even mention:
to the acknowledging of the truth;
Enable is not grant nor give... so I understand what you may believe , but on what basis would you believe such a thing? why ... not what.
So the 3 rd person of the creator Trinity Pulls (verb) us... and fails to complete the intention of His pulling action.
When does the Holy Spirit learn of His failure.. before during or after?
Yes I get you.. he eternally unsatisfied and unfulfilled in his purposes, one has to question when he found that out as well. If Jesus died before the foundation of the world well you get the point.
In Him,
Bill
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Good day Bill!
God's purpose is to make atonement and salvation available for everyone, so those who receive it will be saved, that is His purpose and that He also fulfills.
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- Aug 21, 2003
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Good day, Zoidar
Man just covered so much sorry you did not interact with the text...
He shall
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
He really does save his people there is no sades of gray he does it that is His purpose in coming.
He does not try
He does not depend on anything
He does.
In Him,
Bill
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Yes, His people, anyone who receives Him is His people.
Calvinists often talks about Christ letting down his life only for his sheep. The thing is if you have a school it's open for everyone, yet only those enrolled will be taught. It's the same thing with the cross. Salvation is done and available for the whole human race, everyone, yet only those that who believes are saved. So the school gives it's teaching only on those who enroll, but teaching is available for everyone. No one can ever say, the teaching wasn't meant for me.
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I didn't comment on it because it would lead to a long discussion that does nothing. Anyhow, here we go.
Why I believe like I do, because of the Church fathers and the Bible. The Bible says you can resist the Holy Spirit.
I believe "repentance to an acknowledging of the truth" means being saved, coming to faith in Christ. God gives salvation as a gift, that has to be received.
When I wrote enable was as an answer to Phoebe Ann's comment. This was the answer to you:
"I'm not sure if "grant" is the best translation here. "Give" may be better. What reasons may there be for God giving a person repentance? Maybe because the person chooses by free will to listen to the gospel with an open heart."
I can also add: 2 Ti 2:25 says nothing about the part man plays in repentance, just because this verse doesn't mention it doesn't mean there is no such part.
The short answer is the Holy Spirit doesn't fail, we fail through hardening. When we harden ourselves the Holy Spirit is letting us do so and wait for us to open the heart.
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Good day, Zoidar
Calvinist talk about it because that is what Jesus said in John... Much of what you have said is void of Scriptural support and fall out side historical Christianity So it best that we leave it there, as clearly you are unable to deal with what scripture says.
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
In Him,
Bill
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Are you a Calvinist Bill? All those ideas of Calvinism, limited atomement, perservance of the saints etc. has no ground in the early Church.
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Good Day, Zodair
That depends on what you mean by the term Calvinism. I find often times when some one uses the term. We first have to get the category straight in order to talk usefully.
I have only used Scripture with you in this thread, so your inquiry seems a bit strange.
None the less.
Yes:
What is Calvinism? | CARM.org
London Baptist Confession of 1644
Spurgeon: Calvinism is a nick name for the Gospel and a rather good one I might add.
The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach today, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox's gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again.
In Him
Bill
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Hi again Bill,
If you want the truth you have to go earlier than Augustine. Augustine didn't know greek and he came up with new ideas to the Church.
God bless,
P
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- Aug 21, 2003
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Good Day, Zoidar
That is an interesting and novel view... Do you have a Primary source from the time of Augustine that accused him of such. I have read his interactions with Jerome on the issue of some Greek manuscripts, but even Jerome never suggested such a thing.
So I would like some primary proof sourced correctly... please. You can accuse him of such, but it is hardly compelling based on the facts that I am aware of historically.
In Him,
Bill
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What I've read is mostly second source material. But I'll see what I will find for you.
Here's about the greek:
"After he became a Manichaean, Augustine continued to read philosophy, but was soon hampered by his not knowing much Greek. When aged in his twenties he would have found it difficult to read a Greek philosophical or theological text, and when later as a bishop and an author he realised that he really needed to know Greek, by then it was impractical for him to undertake a formal study of it.
Although he gradually acquired some use of the language, he was never really at home in it. His acquaintance with Greek literature was very limited. It has been questioned, for example, whether he was able to use, in the original, either the Hebrew or Greek Scriptures. Apparently, he was in the habit of using translations of the Greek author, Plato (Confessions 8, 2)"
http://www.augnet.org/en/life-of-augustine/augustine-in-general/1311-greek-language/
Here's about the greek:
"After he became a Manichaean, Augustine continued to read philosophy, but was soon hampered by his not knowing much Greek. When aged in his twenties he would have found it difficult to read a Greek philosophical or theological text, and when later as a bishop and an author he realised that he really needed to know Greek, by then it was impractical for him to undertake a formal study of it.
Although he gradually acquired some use of the language, he was never really at home in it. His acquaintance with Greek literature was very limited. It has been questioned, for example, whether he was able to use, in the original, either the Hebrew or Greek Scriptures. Apparently, he was in the habit of using translations of the Greek author, Plato (Confessions 8, 2)"
http://www.augnet.org/en/life-of-augustine/augustine-in-general/1311-greek-language/
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I recommend two books by David Bercot who has studied the early Christians for over 20 years.
"Will the theologians please sit down" and "Will the real heretics please stand up"
From the latter Bercot writes:
Unfortionately for us, the New Testament wasn't written by Western minds, but by Hellenic Eastern minds. Augustine himself has never mastered Greek. This is highly significant, because Greek is the language of the New Testament and the vast majority of early Christian writings. Perhaps that's why Augustine departed from early Christianity in so many areas-more than any other Christian teacher of his time. It's unfortunate he had such a brilliant mind, because as a result of his genius, he took the entire Western Church with him.
The list of doctrines and practices that Augustine either initiated or gave his authority to is impressively long. The following is only a partial list of what he taught:
- that Mary was born and lived her entire life without sin; 1
- that unbaptized infants are eternally damned ;2
- that sex within marriage is an inherently debased act ;3
- that war can be holy ;4
- that there will be no litteral millenium ;5
- that there is no forgiveness of sins outside the Catholic church ;6
- that some of the practices and teachings of the apostles no longer apply to Christians because the apostles lived in a different age ;7
- that there is a purgatorial fire ;8
- that the dead can benefit from the sacrifice of the Eucharist and ;9
- that it's proper for a "Christian" state to persecute heretics ;10
Notes
1. Augustine - On nature and grace chap. 42
2. Augustine - On forgivness of sins and baptism of infants bk. 1, chap. 21.
3. Augustine - Enchiridion chaps. 26, 34 ...
4. Augustine - The city of God bk. 1. chap. 21
5. Ibid., bk 20, chap 7.
6. Augustine - Enchiridion chap. 65; On marriage and concupiscence.
7. Augustine - The correction of the Donatists Chap 5.
8. Justo L. Gonzalez - A history of Christian thought, vol. 2 (Nashville: Abingdon Press, 1970), p. 53; Earle E. Cairns- Christianity through the centuries (Grand Rapids: Zondervan Publishing House, 1954), p. 161.
9. Augustine - Enchiridion Chap 110.
10. Augustine - Donatists chap. 2.
What Augustine taught about salvation
1. As a result of Adam's sin, man is totally depraved. He is absolutely unable to do anything good or save himself. In fact he's even unable to believe or have faith in God.
2. Therefor, humans can believe in God or have faith in Him only if by grace He first gives them this faith or belief. Man has no free will to choose either to believe or not to believe.
3. God's decision to save one person and condemn another, to give faith to one person and withhold it from another is totally arbitrary. There is nothing we can do to influence Gods choice.
4. Before the creation or the world, God arbitrarely predestined (not simply foreknew) who would be saved and who would be damned. There is nothing we can do in this life or the next to change these matters.
5. The elect, those who were predestined for salvation, cannot possibly lose their salvation. Those predestined for damnation cannot possibly be saved.
6. No one can know whether or not he or she is of the elect. God gives many people the gift of faith so that they believe, are baptized, walk in Jesus' commandments. However some of them have not been predestined salvation and ultimately won't persevere. The gift of perseverance is a separate gift from that or faith. We have no way of knowing who in the church has been given the gift of perserverance.
7. Salvation is totally a matter of grace. Faith is a gift from God. Obedience is a gift of God. Perserverance is a gift from God.
Augustine managed to to persuade most of the bishops of North Africa, and his views ended up prevailing. However, by overreacting to the errors of Pelagianism. Augustine obliterated the original Early Christian teachings of free will and man's involvement in salvation. In their place was the cold, grim doctrine of absolute predestination.
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My point was that anyone can become a sheep of Jesus. Sure Jesus died for his sheep, but also for everyone to have the possibility to become his sheep. In one sense he died for the sheep, in another meaning for everyone as an atoning sacrifice for the whole world (john 3:16).
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