Free Will - God's test that all mankind flunks

Clare73

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Actually it was post 680 and quoted by you in 682, I am referring to scripture you should know by heart. Like Jesus often said, "have you not read?"
Who authorized the specific list that I am to know by heart?

If I am going to specifically address Scripture, I need to know specifically to what Scriptures you are referring that I may examine them from the text, not from fallible memory.
Wow, talk about having the cart before the horse : ) That is like saying we are murders before we murder someone. We are born guilty of having broken all the laws?!
Does not the NT state that to break one law is to break them all?

Are you saying your standing with God is based on your law-keeping?
 
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childeye 2

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Tell me what you think about this. If the term Free will by definition has baked into it, the ability to deny God, is it not sin to consider there's even an option?
 
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Clare73

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You don't know Ezk: 18? You should.
I didn't get the memo on the authorized list of Scriptures to commit to memory.
I see a lot about, but no presentation of what I am to address.

Why the reluctance to present what I am to address?
I will address it when it is presented.
 
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Clare73

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OK. . .then I first need to know by whose wisdom, purpose and plan I am to measure this, yours or God's?

See post #705, below.
 
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Clare73

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God does not contradict himself in his word written.

Have you presented any such verses for me to reconcile?
Precisely. . .
OK. . .

The cause of all death is sin. . .The wages of sin is death. (Romans 6:23)
And sin is transgression of the law, and where there is no law there is no sin (transgression).
There was no law between Adam and Moses, so there was no sin (Romans 5:14), but they all died, which is due to sin.
So for what sin of theirs did they die?

They died for the sin which made them sinners (Romans 5:19). . .by imputation to them of Adam's sin,
just as by faith we are made righteous by imputation of Christ's righteousness to us (Romans 5:18-10), as God's righteousness (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21-22) was imputed to Abraham (Romans 4:3; Genesis 15:6) because of faith.

Having shown God's imputation of Adam's sin to those between Adam and Moses (Romans 5:12-14), Paul then completes the NT doctrine of imputation in two contrasting parallels of imputation, of sin and of righteousness, in Romans 5:18-19.

Note that Paul says in 5:18 that we are all (those in Adam) condemned by Adam's sin,
just as we are all (those in Christ) justified by Christ's righteousness.

And particularly note that he says in 5:19, that we were all made sinners by Adam's transgression,
just as we are all made righteous by Jesus Christ's righteousness (obedience).

Note that in neither half of the parallels does the outcome (guilt vs. righteousness) have anything to do with what man did, or our involvement would not be of the same nature in them, and his parallelism of contrasting imputations would be destroyed.

Paul's meaning in Romans 5:18-19 is that Adam's guilt is imputed to us, just as (in the same way) Christ's righteousness is imputed to us.

We are born sinners, born guilty of Adam's sin because God has imputed Adam's sin to those born of Adam. . .just as he has imputed Christ's righteousness to those born again of Christ.

God has shut up all mankind in sin (Romans 3:19; Galatians 3:22) and left them without excuse (Romans 1:20), so that Christ may be their only hope, source and remedy (Romans 5:20-21; Galatians 3:22; Colossians 1:17-20).

God has decreed that all things shall come to all men (Gentile as well as Jew) in Christ alone (2 Corinthians 1:20; Matthew 11:27; John 14:6; Romans 15:8; Galatians 3:16) and, therefore, God has shut up all men (Jew as well as Gentile) in guilt and sin (Romans 3:9-12, 19, 5:19-20, 11:30-32), not leaving even the possibility that man can have anything outside Christ, except a promise to perish (John 3:16, John 3:18, John 3:36).

And in this way the wisdom of God accomplishes his eternal decree (Psalms 2:7; Luke 22:22; John 6:40, 10:18, 14:31) regarding his Christ (Ephesians 1:9-10; Colossians 2:2-3), all things being created by him and for him, (Colossians 1:17-20) Christ in us, the hope of glory (Colossians 1:26-28).
 
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Clare73

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I'd like to study up on this natural law...where can I find it please? Which verses is it in?
We can start with "what goes up must come down," and then there is Romans 1:18-20;
Romans 2:14-15.
 
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Clare73

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See post #705, above.
 
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misput

JimD
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I should have said fleshly nature but a fleshly nature is a sinful nature, you know, the nature everyone from Adam to Jesus has to deal with. Whether we inherited it or acquired it, makes no difference.
 
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misput

JimD
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Ezek. 18
 
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misput

JimD
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Thanks. . .is reversal the issue?

But isn't Ezekiel 18 a complete reversal of Exodus 34:7; Numbers 14:18; Jeremiah 32:18?
.
No, it is about a Jewish misunderstanding of those scriptures.

Children do naturally (not by inheriting) suffer because of their parents sin. The Jews were trying to blame inherited sin the same way you are and God through Ezekiel is setting them straight.
 
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Clare73

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No, it is about a Jewish misunderstanding of those scriptures.
You're gonna' have to do better than that!

Exodus 34:7; Numbers 14:18; Jeremiah 32:18 could not be more clearly stated, and you have absolutely no Biblical warrant for denying their plain meaning.

Your theology drives your interpretation of Scripture, rather than the plain Scriptures driving your theology.

Not good. . .
 
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Clare73

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Sin is never inherited. It is credited/imputed to us when we sin.
To credit/impute means you did nothing to get it (Romans 4:4-5), as Abraham's righteousness was imputed/credited to him (Romans 4:3; Genesis 15:6) because of faith, apart from anything he did (works). (Romans 4:1-5)

The guilt of Adam's sin is imputed to those of Adam (Romans 5:18a-19a),
just as the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed by faith to those of Christ (Romans 5:18b,19b), as righteousness was imputed to Abraham by faith (Romans 4:1-5),
and, therefore, all those born of Adam are born condemned (Romans 5:18) by his guilt imputed to them.
 
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misput

JimD
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Obviously you did no understand Ezek. 18, sorry.
 
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JimD
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Talk is easy.
Please Biblically demonstrate what I got wrong.
It cannot be demonstrated any more clearly than Ezekiel 18. Which also debunks once saved always saved and the common interpretation of predestination.
 
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Bruce Leiter

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I have never liked the term "free will" as misleading. We are born into this world as slaves of Satan and dead to God (see Ephesians 2:1-3). When we become believers, he raises us to new life to become his willing children serving him (Ephesians 2:4-10). In what way is our will "free"?
 
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