Free Will - God's test that all mankind flunks

[misput]

To credit/impute means you did nothing to get it (Romans 4:4-5), as Abraham's righteousness was imputed/credited to him (Romans 4:3; Genesis 15:6) because of faith, apart from anything he did (works). (Romans 4:1-5)

The guilt of Adam's sin is imputed to those of Adam (Romans 5:18a-19a),
just as the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed by faith to those of Christ (Romans 5:18b,19b), as righteousness was imputed to Abraham by faith (Romans 4:1-5),
and, therefore, all those born of Adam are born condemned (Romans 5:18) by his guilt imputed to them.

Your understanding of imputed is seriously flawed.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I have never liked the term "free will" as misleading. We are born into this world as slaves of Satan and dead to God (see Ephesians 2:1-3). When we become believers, he raises us to new life to become his willing children serving him (Ephesians 2:4-10). In what way is our will "free"?

That question I believe was addressed by Clare73 back in reply #71. If you are reluctant to use the term "free will", perhaps you can relate better to the term "free agency" that Clare73 suggested. There are some inherent differences between these terms, which that post #71 spells out.

 

[misput]

Talk is easy.
Please Biblically demonstrate what I got wrong.

One use of the word impute/credit is to credit something to someone they do not earn or deserve such as the righteousness of Christ to man by faith.

The punishment for committed sin is earned and deserved, credited/imputed to the sinner, unless they do not know the law, ie those between Adam and Moses, children and those of faith.

One person's sin is never credited/imputed to someone else except in the case of Christ and
we are certainly not the Christ for Adam as we manage to sin to our own condemnation.

Why would God credit/impute Adams sin to us when we sin our own sin so readily? Ezekiel 18 implicitly says He does not.

Ezekiel 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

 

[Clare73]

One use of the word impute/credit is to credit something to someone they do not earn or deserve such as the righteousness of Christ to man by faith.

That is the only use of logizomai (impute) in the NT.

The punishment for committed sin is earned and deserved,

And, therefore, is charged (ellogao) not imputed (logizomai).

credited/imputed to the sinner, unless they do not know the law, ie those between Adam and Moses, children and those of faith.

One person's sin is never credited/imputed to someone else except in the case of Christ

You just negated your assertion, demonstrating it is not "never."

Please Biblically demonstrate your assertion of only one exception allowed.

we are certainly not the Christ for Adam as we manage to sin to our own condemnation.

Why would God credit/impute Adams sin to us when we sin our own sin so readily?

Addressed in post #705.

Ezekiel 18 implicitly says He does not.
Ezekiel 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

"Implicit" is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Clare73]

Your understanding of imputed is seriously flawed.

Talk is easy.

Please demonstrate Biblically. . .keeping in mind logizomai (impute) has only one meaning used in Scripture, to put down to a person's account, as in Romans 4:4, 5, 13, etc.

The other word ellogao, translated in the KJV as "impute," but not so in all others, means "to charge to" based on action, as in Romans 5:13.

 

[misput]

To credit/impute means you did nothing to get it (Romans 4:4-5), as Abraham's righteousness was imputed/credited to him (Romans 4:3; Genesis 15:6) because of faith, apart from anything he did (works). (Romans 4:1-5)

The guilt of Adam's sin is imputed to those of Adam (Romans 5:18a-19a),
just as the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed by faith to those of Christ (Romans 5:18b,19b), as righteousness was imputed to Abraham by faith (Romans 4:1-5),
and, therefore, all those born of Adam are born condemned (Romans 5:18) by his guilt imputed to them.

Ro 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

Rom. 5:12 does not indicate we become guilty of sin by doing nothing. It indicates we become guilty of sin by sinning. Just as, means just like, the same way, so we become guilty of sin just as Adam did, by sinning.

 

[misput]

misput said

 

[misput]

Clare73 said: ↑
Addressed in post #705. "And sin is transgression of the law, and where there is no law there is no sin (transgression).
There was no law between Adam and Moses, so there was no sin (Romans 5:14), but they all died, which is due to sin.
So for what sin of theirs did they die?"

There was no law but there was sin, it was not in the likeness of the offense of Adam because they did not have the command but sin was made clear to them
through natural law, their conscience and creation, Rom. 1 & 2

CLare said:If Ezekiel 18 can change God's OT word, why can the NT not change Ezekiel 18?

None of them are changed. You are misinterpreting.

 

[misput]

Talk is easy.

Please demonstrate Biblically. . .keeping in mind it has only one use in Scripture, to put down to a person's account, as in Christ's righteousness and Adam's guilt (Romans 5:12-14, 18-19) put down to our account.

I should have said your use of imputed is seriously flawed. See post 723 & Ezekial 18:20
Eze 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

No ones sin is ever imputed to another except in the Case of Christ.

 

[jamiec]

Adam and Eve only had free will to show us all how DANGEROUS free will is in the hands of created beings. To show us that ONLY God in His inherent perfection can be trusted with this power.

The angels were also given this gift of free will, and many fell to the same fate as mankind, with the exception of the "elect angels"; the ones preserved in a righteous state by God, and who have been enabled to perpetually serve Him dutifully and completely.

1. Many good things are dangerous: political liberty, literacy, the gift of speech, intelligence, food, drink, money, the capacity for loving God, bodily strength, the Bible, to name a few. There is probably no good thing that human beings cannot misuse to the corruption or destruction either of themselves, or of their neighbours, or of the state. Yet God’s Providence has given them, by enabling & gifting people to produce many of these things.

Indeed, God, than Whom nothing is or can be better, Who is the Supreme Good and the Author of all good in all creation, is dangerous.

2. The solution to misusing them, is not to disuse them, but to seek, with God’s help, to use them wisely and well. Should we ban all books, because books can be greatly misused, and are ?

 

[jamiec]

Human free will, I think, is limited to things temporal. We can choose to sleep in or wake up early, wear a button down shirt or pullover, eat this but not that, vacation here and not there, befriend him but not her, etc. However, because we are spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, we are unable on our own to respond to God's offer of grace; we must be prompted. When we hear the Lord calling and hear HIS offer, we either say "yes" or "no", but it is the power of the Spirit of God that quickens us to the point where we do say "yes." Is it irresistible grace? Or is it free angency of human beings that lifts us to the point of saying "Yes, I will exercise my free will and accept your offer, Lord."

Monergism vs synergism. All the debates throughout history have not settled the matter, excpet in the minds of those staunch proponents of either of the two positions.

Neither one, nor the other, but God’s Will working “with-in” ours, so that, won over by God’s grace assisting & enlivening us, we freely choose, once justified, to will what God Wills. IOW, our created, flawed & imperfect human wills are adopted in Christ as instruments subordinated to God’s All-Ruling Sovereign Free Will.

We are “co-workers with God”: not corpses, not robots, not cyphers, not nothing. God has given us, “in Christ”, a genuine place in His purpose, to do His works, with His motives, for His ends. And because God is our transcendent Creator & Lord, we are in no sense working on a parity with God: an absurd notion. Instead, we “work with God”, by the grace of God in us, making our frail human wills the created human means of working out and expressing His own transcendent will. And the more we are enabled by the indwelling Spirit of God to grow in Christ, the more adequately and fully His Will has the scope to work through ours. The limitation is in us - never in Him.

This might be called Synergistic Sub-intra-operational Monergism.

 

[misput]

To credit/impute means you did nothing to get it

God imputes/credits our sins to us unless we are born again and sinning is certainly doing something to get it. This is what I mean by you are seriously misunderstanding imputed and how it is used in scripture.

 

[Clare73]

Ro 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

Rom. 5:12 does not indicate we become guilty of sin by doing nothing. It indicates we become guilty of sin by sinning. Just as, means just like, the same way, so we become guilty of sin just as Adam did, by sinning.

Okay. . ."because all sinned," taken from Romans 5:12-14, in context refers to the time between Adam and Moses when there was no law, and therefore no transgression (sin), yet all died, meaning all sinned, but what sin, when there was no law to transgress and, therefore, no sin?

Paul's answer is that those between Adam and Moses were all guilty of the imputed sin of Adam, because all those born of Adam are guilty of the imputed guilt of Adam (Romans 5:18), just as all those born of Christ (second Adam) are righteous (justified) by faith with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ (the contrasting parallels being drawn in Romans 5:18-19). . .as was Abraham who was made righteous with God's imputed righteousness (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21-22) by faith (Romans 4:3; Genesis 15:6).

 

[Clare73]

I should have said your use of imputed is seriously flawed. See post 723 & Ezekial 18:20
Eze 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

To which I responded that, if Ezekiel 18 can change the OT word of God's own words in Exodus 34:7; Numbers 14:18 and Jeremiah 32:18, why can't the NT also change Ezekiel 18?

No ones sin is ever imputed to another except in the Case of Christ.

You just negated your assertion. . .demonstrating that it is not "never."

Please Biblically demonstrate your assertion of only one exception allowed and why Paul is wrong in Romans 3:21-5:21,

Edit: explained in post #743, following.

 

[Clare73]

God imputes/credits our sins to us unless we are born again and sinning is certainly doing something to get it. This is what I mean by you are seriously misunderstanding imputed and how it is used in scripture.

Contrare. . .

Our sin is not imputed to (logozomai) us, it is (legally) charged to (ellogao) us (Romans 5:13), because it is done by us, it is ours, we created it, we own it, it is not imputed to us by anyone, anymore than the potatoes I planted in my backyard are "imputed" to me as mine; i.e., being in Scripture's only use of the term "imputed" (logozomai).

 

[3 Resurrections]

1. Many good things are dangerous: political liberty, literacy, the gift of speech, intelligence, food, drink, money, the capacity for loving God, bodily strength, the Bible, to name a few. There is probably no good thing that human beings cannot misuse to the corruption or destruction either of themselves, or of their neighbours, or of the state.

This is unfortunately all too true. The fault for this abuse does not lie in the things themselves, but in the agency of the one using those things. The remedy is not in banning all those good things, but in completely renovating the agent who uses them. That renovation process will be finalized for us in the resurrection when we enter the eternal state; when the will of the creature matches the will of the Creator.

 

[misput]

Okay. . ."because all sinned," taken from Romans 5:12-14, in context refers to the time between Adam and Moses when there was no law, and therefore no transgression (sin), yet all died, meaning all sinned, but what sin, when there was no law to transgress and, therefore, no sin?

Paul's answer is that those between Adam and Moses were all guilty of the imputed sin of Adam, because all those born of Adam are guilty of the imputed guilt of Adam (Romans 5:18), just as all those born of Christ (second Adam) are righteous (justified) by faith with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ (the contrasting parallels being drawn in Romans 5:18-19). . .as was Abraham who was made righteous with God's imputed righteousness (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21-22) by faith (Romans 4:3; Genesis 15:6).

We have different points of view. Why does yours contradict Ezekiel 18? Does God change from time to time?

 

[TedT]

Children do naturally (not by inheriting) suffer because of their parents sin. The Jews were trying to blame inherited sin the same way you are and God through Ezekiel is setting them straight.

Yes indeed and death proves sin and folk die in the womb proving their sinfulness...and whether the new person is created by a system of procreation or by GOD HIMself, it is HIS system put in place for HIS pleasure supposedly to make people to be what HE wants them to be which is suggested to be sinful in a world of suffering and death.

Our thinking of the doctrine of our creation and becoming sinful needs a serious revamping... this blasphemy that HE takes pleasure in our sin, suffering and death which is all by HIS sovereignty has been going on too long.

 

[misput]

Contrare. . .

Our sin is not imputed to us, our sin is done by us, it is ours, we created it, we own it, it is not credited/imputed to us by anyone, anymore than the potatoes I planted in my backyard are "imputed" to me as mine; i.e., in Scripture's only use of the term "imputed."

It is known as nuance of meaning. We were discussing sin not being credited and it seemed important to understand when sin is being credited. It has to do with not being so literal which you do not seem to have any concept of.

 

[misput]

Yes indeed and death proves sin and folk die in the womb proving their sinfulness...and whether the new person is created by a system of procreation or by GOD HIMself, it is HIS system put in place for HIS pleasure supposedly to make people to be what HE wants them to be which is suggested to be sinful in a world of suffering and death.

Our thinking of the doctrine of our creation and becoming sinful needs a serious revamping... this blasphemy that HE takes pleasure in our sin, suffering and death which is all by HIS sovereignty has been going on too long.

Thank you for presenting something "out of the box" to think about.