Free Will - God's test that all mankind flunks

[Clare73]

And who set up this system of our generation?

It is the natural law operating throughout all creation. Man is not exempt from it.
And according to that law, we are born with Adam's nature; i.e., sinful human.
Sinful humans are at enmity with God (Romans 5:10), are by nature (birth) objects of wrath
(Ephesians 2:3), all condemned by the sin of Adam (Romans 5:18).
That is authoritative NT teaching.

Who created our eternal spirit to inhabit our earthly bodies and inherit Adam's evil? This doctrine says GOD did and HE did it to put another's sin upon us for which we are judged and die. Just too bogus...

That would be the unimpressive verdict of human reasoning.

However, I'm thinking Romans 5:18 is not bogus:
"the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men."

"The wages of sin is death." (Romans 6:23)

"by the trespass of one man, death reigned through that one man" (Romans 5:17)

I believe it, evidently you don't.

The JWs make the same declaration that our generation is not a creation from God but is only a natural system but then claim we have no eternal spirit or are not eternal spirits as their answer to my question and conclusion, which confounds me greatly.

Compare the idea that our inheriting Adam's sin is just the nature of being human with the doctrine of our being predestined from before the creation of the world to be conformed to the Son and others are not so predestined and it makes our natural process of becoming evil to be part of GOD's plan which is also confounding. Does light need the darkness? Not at all, darkness is only created when someone opposes the light and blocks it, that is, dark is NOT a natural part of GOD being light.

Does love need hate so that it creates hate? Not at all. Hate can never be produced by love but only by a rebellion against love, a repudiation of the lover.

The fact that these truths are ignored by those theologies who blind themselves to the fact that this doctrine insists that love and light do create hate and dark by some means or other against scripture is a failure of the theology, not of GOD's nature as light and love.

The divine truth does not come from theologies, it comes from the word of God written, as in the above.

I take it the rest of post #676 met with your approval.

 

[Clare73]

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

This does not mean God created sin. Evil simply means bad, bad things can bring forth good results as well as bad/sin. Adam & Eve were created with the ability to do bad things/sin. The proof of this is they did a bad thing ie disobeyed God, by trying to live by eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which is the figure of the law of Moses and was the law from Adam too Moses. The proof of this is God told Cain, if you do well, you will be accepted and if you do not, sin desires to have you but you must master it. How was he to master it? By believing in God, of course, which amounted to eating/living by the tree of life, which was figurative of Christ/God. What other tree provides life if we eat/live by except Christ/God?

On another note, as has been pointed out,
to interpret Rom.5 the way most folks do is a direct contradiction of Ezek. 18.

Or. . .to interpret the prophetic riddle of Ezekiel 18 as you do is a direct contradiction of authoritative NT teaching in Romans 5.
You set OT prophetic riddles, not stated clearly (Numbers 12:8) against NT teaching.

If your interpretation of a prophetic riddle is not in agreement with the NT teaching of Romans 5:12-14, then your understanding of the prophetic riddle is incorrect.
You've got the cart before the horse. . .NT teaching governs interpretation of prophetic riddles, which are not given clearly.

PS: As far as I can tell created or generated has no bearing on the issues being discussed. The example of Adam is the basic example of all mankind.

Ted thinks specific creation of each individual has bearing on God's character.
Evidently, he denies the natural law of regeneration operating throughout creation.

Also, as has been suggested, repeating something over and over does not make it so, Clare : )

But the word of God makes it so.

Feel free to address it in post #676.

 

[misput]

Or. . .to interpret the prophetic riddle of Ezekiel 18 as you do is a direct contradiction of authoritative NT teaching in Romans 5.
You set OT prophetic riddles, not stated clearly (Numbers 12:8) against NT teaching.

If your interpretation of a prophetic riddle is not in agreement with the NT teaching of Romans 5:12-14, then your understanding of the prophetic riddle is incorrect.
You've got the cart before the horse. . .NT teaching governs interpretation of prophetic riddles, which are not given clearly.

What you refer to as riddles are actually Spiritual references to Christ and in no way disagree with NT teaching. I suppose the reason you do not reply to my Spiritual references to Christ and the Law is because you see them as riddles also. I assure you they are not.

Ted thinks specific creation of each individual has bearing on God's character.
Evidently, he denies the natural law of regeneration operating throughout creation.

Evidently you have misunderstood Ted.

But the word of God makes it so.

Yes it does but your interpretation does not.

 

[Clare73]

What you refer to as riddles are actually Spiritual references to Christ and in no way disagree with NT teaching. I suppose the reason you do not reply to my Spiritual references to Christ and the Law is because you see them as riddles also. I assure you they are not.

I'm not understanding what you are referring to.

Evidently you have misunderstood Ted.

He quarrels with God's natural order of regeneration, whereby we are born with the same sinful nature as Adam, evidently because he thinks humans are exempt from it.

Yes it does but your interpretation does not.

It would be helpful if you Biblically demonstrated what you see as error in what I present.

 

[misput]

To clarify: Ezek. 18 is not a riddle. Neither is Num:12:8 nor where Moses asks to see God's face.

 

[misput]

I'm not understanding what you are referring to.

See post 680.

He quarrels with God's natural order of regeneration, whereby we are born with the same sinful nature as Adam, evidently because he thinks humans are exempt from it.

I think he believes the same as I do. We inherit Adams sinful nature but that does not make us born sinners. We become sinners just like Adam did, by sinning.

It would be helpful if you Biblically demonstrated what you see as error in what I present.

We have been down that road several times and do not agree, so all I know to do is agree to disagree : )

 

[Clare73]

See post 682.

I do not see any Scriptures presented there by you.

I think he believes the same as I do. We inherit Adams sinful nature but that does not make us born sinners. We become sinners just like Adam did, by sinning.

Actually, we are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are born sinners.

That's what sinful nature means, we sin. . .no one is exempt.

We have been down that road several times and do not agree, so all I know to do is agree to disagree : )

That works.

 

[Clare73]

To clarify: Ezek. 18 is not a riddle. Neither is Num:12:8 nor where Moses asks to see God's face.

No, Numbers 12:8 is not a riddle (dark saying), it is God explaining to Miriam that he speaks to all the other prophets in dark sayings, not clearly as he speaks to Moses; i.e., God gives prophecy in dark sayings (riddles) and not clearly.
Being not given clearly, according to God, prophecy is subject to more than one interpretation, and its meaning is governed by authoritative NT teaching with which any interpretation must not disagree, as much interpretation today does.

I don't know Ezekiel 18.

 

[TedT]

Okay, good. . .what do you think Romans 5:18 means?

So then, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men. Just like Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, it means that sinners partake of Adam's judgement of death because we are sinners, but says nothing of partaking of his sinfulness.

Authoritative natural revelation (as in Romans 1:20, leaving us without excuse): We don't determine or make our nature, we are born with our nature

No sinner has any excuse, true but this does not say we do not determine our own fate which is an exegetical interpretation of the meaning... we have no excuse after seeing the proof of GOD's power and deity but still sinning!

Human reasoning: if man was not not born with a sinful nature, then somewhere along the way in all these thousands of years, surely at least one person besides Jesus would have been sinless.

IF only sinners are sown into this world, Matt 13:36-39, then no one could be born sinless, right?

 

[misput]

I do not see any Scriptures presented there by you.

Actually it was post 680 and quoted by you in 682, I am referring to scripture you should know by heart. Like Jesus often said, "have you not read?"

Actually, we are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are born sinners.

That's what sinful nature means, we sin. . .no one is exempt.

Wow, talk about having the cart before the horse : ) That is like saying we are murders before we murder someone. We are born guilty of having broken all the laws?!

 

[misput]

No, Numbers 12:8 is not a riddle (dark saying), it is God explaining to Miriam that he speaks to all the other prophets in dark sayings, not clearly as he speaks to Moses; i.e., God gives prophecy in dark sayings (riddles) and not clearly.
Being not given clearly, according to God, prophecy is subject to more than one interpretation, and its meaning is governed by authoritative NT teaching with which any interpretation must not disagree, as much interpretation today does.

I don't know Ezekiel 18.

You don't know Ezk: 18? You should. It is not a riddle or dark prophecy either but speaks clearly to a correct understanding of Rom. 5 and has been brought to your attention many times. There is dark and riddle prophecy in both Old & New Testament so the idea that one is more authoritative than the other is blatantly false. Claiming or pretending to not know certain scripture is like selective ignorance on your part Clare, I don't buy it : )

 

[TedT]

It is the natural law operating throughout all creation. Man is not exempt from it.

Then it is a natural law (of suffering and death) that GOD put us under or into for no reason at all when HE could have made us innocent as HE did for Adam and Eve.

If my creation was my natural conception as human in Adam's line, inheriting Adam's sinfulness so I am evil, which is more loving: 1. To create me evil by creating me as human inheriting Adam's sin or 2. creating me innocent as HE did for Adam and Eve...or even Satan?

Don't ignore it, ok? Justify how love can create evil, how light can create dark.

 

[TedT]

The divine truth does not come from theologies, it comes from the word of God written, as in the above.

I do not deny the truth of scripture, just your interpretation of it...though I'm skeptical when you imply that your interpretation IS the expression of Biblical truth, especially when you ONLY repeat your doctrine over and over and ignored the verses that are in obvious contradiction to that doctrine.

Would you exegete the verses I put forward for me, please, not just repeat your eisegetic interpretation of other verses?

I will repeat myself: I do NOT deny that all sinners are under the condemnation/judgement of death which we inherit from Adam but that does NOT prove that we must therefore have become sinners by being created in Adam!!!

 

[TedT]

Ted thinks specific creation of each individual has bearing on God's character.
Evidently, he denies the natural law of regeneration operating throughout creation.

I'd like to study up on this natural law...where can I find it please? Which verses is it in?

 

[childeye 2]

Then it is a natural law (of suffering and death) that GOD put us under or into for no reason at all when HE could have made us innocent as HE did for Adam and Eve.

I think this is well said as pertains to your overall sentiment. The problem I see is that you're not accounting for someone who is viewing Adam as a state of being or circumstance that's common to all mankind in that we are carnal. We all choose to believe or not to believe, as if we could make God in our image. Hence mankind is subject to vanity and God is not.

 

[TedT]

He quarrels with God's natural order of regeneration, whereby we are born with the same sinful nature as Adam, evidently because he thinks humans are exempt from it.

I believe we have the same evil nature as Adam but I reject most vehemently that we got it by inheriting it from Adam. We got it the same way he did and that is why we are the same as him...

ONLY a free will decision to repudiate GOD or to rebel against HIS methods and commands makes anyone an evil sinner in their soul. Anything else is an injustice and blasphemous to HIS good Name.

 

[TedT]

I think he believes the same as I do. We inherit Adams sinful nature but that does not make us born sinners. We become sinners just like Adam did, by sinning.

Sorry misput, inheriting a sinful nature at our creation is contrary to becoming a sinner by sinning. Our choice to sin is the only method by which anyone can become sinful in their nature...just like Satan, just like Adam.

Why would HE allow HIS most dreaded enemy, Satan, a free will choice to be good or evil but HIS Bride, predestined to the heavenly marriage, must be born with a sinful nature into a life of suffering and death for no choice of their own???

 

[Clare73]

So then, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men. Just like Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, it means that sinners partake of Adam's judgement of death because we are sinners, but says nothing of partaking of his sinfulness.
No sinner has any excuse, true but this does not say we do not determine our own fate which is an exegetical interpretation of the meaning...

The meaning is what the text states in light of the whole counsel of God.

Our fate is determined by our unbelief or belief (faith in and trust on) the person and atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for remission of our sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," justified (declared righteous) with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:18-19), just as God's righteousness (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21-22) was imputed to Abraham because of his faith (Romans 4:3; Genesis 15:6).

we have no excuse after seeing the proof of GOD's power and deity but still sinning!

We do not have the power to be totally sinless.
If we do, then why aren't you?

But with salvation comes the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, whereby we are no longer regarded as sinners in God's sight.

IF only sinners are sown into this world, Matt 13:36-39, then no one could be born sinless, right?

That's the teaching of the NT.

Which is why salvation in Jesus Christ is our only hope.

 

[TedT]

I think this is well said as pertains to your overall sentiment. The problem I see is that you're not accounting for someone viewing Adam as a state of being that's common to all mankind as carnal.

Sorry,
I DO ACCEPT that we are all as carnal as Adam, that carnality is a state that is common to us all! I just deny that we inherited this state from Adam and suggest that we got it only by a free will decision to repudiate GOD or HIS commands like Adam and Satan.

 

[TedT]

We do not have the power to be totally sinless.
If we do, then why aren't you?

I must have had this so called power, the power of a free will, but I chose to rebel against HIS command, losing my free will to the enslaving addiction (power?) of sin. Why would HE allow Satan a free will but relegate HIS beloved Bride to a life of suffering and death by making her to inherit another's sinfulness contra Jer 31:30 ...each will die for his own iniquity. ??