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Free Will - God's test that all mankind flunks

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by 3 Resurrections, Aug 23, 2021.

  1. 3 Resurrections

    3 Resurrections That's 666 YEARS, folks

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    Free will tends to be a subject treated as a sort of sacred cow that none dare look at disparagingly.

    Isaiah 55:9 tells us, "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." So what would naturally seem to us to be a subject that we should esteem and cherish (like our option to choose), God more than likely has different thoughts than ours about it.

    I propose that God offered free will choice to the originally sinless couple, simply to give an eternal display that any created being (whether angelic or human), when offered the option of choice, unless supernaturally upheld and enabled by God, will eventually and inevitably succumb to making a choice for evil, thus resulting in death and separation from God's perfection. Only God the Creator Himself can be trusted with this dangerous power of free will; One who can be counted on to NEVER default into making an evil choice with that power.

    Free will handed to fallen creatures is a double-edged sword that we wield to our own destruction. It would seem that heaven, as the final purified state for us, will include the removal of all impulses to choose anything other than God's perfect will. Anything less than being totally submerged in God's will would be to live precariously at risk for another fall into sin. To be thus exposed to the possibility of another fall would not be a restful state to remain in for all eternity.

    Humanity has devised pejorative terms for such a perfected state; terms such as "mindless robot", "slave", "the Borg mentality", etc.. Christ Himself was not averse to claiming total subjection to the Father's will, saying "I do always those things that please him", and "Not my will, but thine be done". Yet we do not despise Christ for voicing this total merging of His own will with that of the Father. Why should this be something repugnant when it comes to the idea of our having free will stripped from us in the final perfected state?
     
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  2. Albion

    Albion Factchecker

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    I'm doubtful about the idea that God created Man and gave him Free Will in order to prove the point that humans (and angels) are bound to misuse that Free Will and opt for evil.
     
  3. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why would the question even come up? Free will, if we ever had it, is in Heaven, when we are perfectly one with God, as far as I can tell, yet it is not even a question there. Who would want to be independent of God, we who are made for him, and not for ourselves? IN HIM is our perfect state.
     
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  4. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    From what you said and please correct me if I am wrong: “Sinful humans have free will while here on earth?”

    You also seem to be stating: Adam and Eve only had free will to show us all how bad free will is?

    What glory, honor, praise and submissiveness could man bring to God without having the free will choice to do otherwise?

    Adam and Eve were made “very good” by God’s standard of “very good”, which I would say: “The best two made beings could be made.” Christ is perfect, but Christ is not a made being but deity, so God cannot make clones of a perfect Christ.

    Adam and Eve lacked one very important attribute which could keep them from sinning, but that attribute is something even God cannot gift them, because it has to be humbly accepted of their own free will, let me explain:

    Unfortunately, sin has purpose and appears to be needed for all mature adults (which Adam and Eve showed themselves and us) to help those who are willing to fulfill their earthly objective. The objective drives everything.

    Starting with God is Love (the epitome of Love), which means God is totally unselfish and is not doing stuff for His own sake, but is doing everything for the sake of man, which is also God’s desire and might be referred to as, His sake.

    God would be doing or allowing everything to help humans who are just willing to accept His help to fulfill their earthly objective.

    So, God allows evil to happen to help humans, but God also allowed Christ to go to the cross to help humans.

    There is really nothing you (a created being) can “do” to help the Creator, but you can allow, of your own free will, God to help you, which is God’s desire, since God is a huge giver of gifts.

    You can take any command given in scripture and have Biblical support for calling it “Man’s objective” since God said this is what man is to do, but there is one (more like two) commands all other commands are under.

    Man’s objective is found in the God given Mission statement of: Loving God (and secondly Loving others) with all your heart, soul, mind and energy. In order to fulfill that mission man must first obtain Godly type Love which will make man like God Himself in that man will Love like God Loves. Would becoming like God Himself not be the greatest gift we could get?

    The objective is not to never ever sin, but to obtain this Godly type Love is the first of man’s objective.

    The Adam and Eve story helps us understand. Most people go through a time in which they ask: “How could a Loving God allow such a thing”, which means “why does God not start us all out in a Garden type situation without, needy people, limited resources, death, and questions about His existence?”

    What we can do is thank Adam and Eve for showing us and them that what we might consider the ideal situation is a lousy situation for man to fulfill his earthly objective. Adam and Eve as our very best all human representatives did not fulfill the objective while sinless in the Garden and really could not. The situation after sinning outside the Garden did provide a way to fulfill the objective.

    There are just somethings even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), like God cannot make another Christ since Christ is not a created being. The big inability for us is to be created with instinctive (programmed) Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also, if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real likely alternatives (for humans on earth those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)

    This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

    This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

    All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them, burdens them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus (Luke 7: 36-50) and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant (this includes hell), so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

    This messed up world is actually the very best place for willing mature adult individuals to see, receive, give, experience, accept and grow Godly type Love. All these tragedies provide opportunities for Love, but that does not mean we go around causing opportunities, since we are to be ceasing these opportunities (there are plenty of opportunities) to show/experience Love.
     
  5. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Even God does not have free will. He is bound to his perfect nature just as Adam was bound to his sin-prone nature as soon as a law to break came along.
     
  6. 3 Resurrections

    3 Resurrections That's 666 YEARS, folks

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    Yes, that is the natural gut reaction that we ALL have to being objects that God would use to teach a lesson. No one naturally likes to be "used". That's my point. The instinctive urges of the human heart in its fallen condition naturally tend to rebellion against its Creator. Even in its originally-created state of a sinless condition in the Garden of Eden, as created beings, Adam and Eve were inherently weaker than their Creator as lesser beings. With the gift of free will in their hands, it was only a matter of time before they eventually chose to disobey.

    God can create nothing that is equal to or excels Himself in power. He is the only Being that had no beginning or origin, such as ALL created beings have as a result of His creative acts. I do not trust my own heart and its natural motives. We are told that "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked..." Why should I trust my own natural proclivities without question, if they tend to deceit and rebellion against my Maker?

    I cherish my independence and power to choose as much as the next person, and what I just wrote above goes against every instinct of my nature to write it. But I know I shouldn't trust those instincts to be the correct ones, unless they align with God's. He has a right to do what He wants to with His creation and all humanity upon the earth. And I can trust that the "judge of all the earth will do right". If He wanted to make a grand exhibition of what inevitably happens when weaker beings than Himself are entrusted with the power of free will, I submit to His right to do so.

    And if the terms of inhabiting heaven in His presence require a relinquishing of my free will, I will hand it over most gladly.
     
  7. Albion

    Albion Factchecker

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    There's been no showing of Adam as having any supposed "sin-prone" nature.
     
  8. 3 Resurrections

    3 Resurrections That's 666 YEARS, folks

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    Adam and Eve only had free will to show us all how DANGEROUS free will is in the hands of created beings. To show us that ONLY God in His inherent perfection can be trusted with this power.

    The angels were also given this gift of free will, and many fell to the same fate as mankind, with the exception of the "elect angels"; the ones preserved in a righteous state by God, and who have been enabled to perpetually serve Him dutifully and completely.
     
  9. Albion

    Albion Factchecker

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    What, in Scripture, would suggest that this is the case?
     
  10. JerryinMass

    JerryinMass New Member

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    Human free will, I think, is limited to things temporal. We can choose to sleep in or wake up early, wear a button down shirt or pullover, eat this but not that, vacation here and not there, befriend him but not her, etc. However, because we are spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, we are unable on our own to respond to God's offer of grace; we must be prompted. When we hear the Lord calling and hear HIS offer, we either say "yes" or "no", but it is the power of the Spirit of God that quickens us to the point where we do say "yes." Is it irresistible grace? Or is it free angency of human beings that lifts us to the point of saying "Yes, I will exercise my free will and accept your offer, Lord."

    Monergism vs synergism. All the debates throughout history have not settled the matter, excpet in the minds of those staunch proponents of either of the two positions.
     
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  11. 3 Resurrections

    3 Resurrections That's 666 YEARS, folks

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    Albion, I did not speak of Adam being created with a "sin-prone nature". I spoke of the original pair being "weaker" and "lesser" beings than their Creator. As the Creator and author of all things that come into existence, God can create nothing equal to or more powerful than Himself.

    This is the lesson of us becoming one "IN CHRIST". Once we are eventually united in glory with Him in a totally perfected state of body, soul, and spirit, with our wills totally subsumed in His, then we can rest for all eternity with no possibility of ever falling again.
     
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  12. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The proof is in what he did when given a law. And God designed the universe around it before he created it.
     
  13. Albion

    Albion Factchecker

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    I was quoting Dave L. there.
     
  14. Albion

    Albion Factchecker

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    No. All that we are shown is that God gave instructions to Adam and he violated them. There is nothing about that which indicates that Adam's inherent nature was "sin-prone."
     
  15. sandman

    sandman Senior Member

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    That is pure supposition about God and His reason for man to have free will. This is like the automobile trying to explain Henry Ford.

    Supposition is how we ended up with the “theory” of evolution.
    We can, speculate all day long about what we think of God and His Word. I am not saying it is all wrong, but drawing any sort of conclusion without scripture to back that up is how religions get started ….. Religion is what man thinks of God, Christianity is what God wrought through His son Jesus Christ.
     
  16. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    What you see is, God created Adam sinless and he remained so until God gave him a Law. This was inevitable since God designed creation around it.
     
  17. Albion

    Albion Factchecker

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    It wasn't inevitable, and the fact that Adam sinned proves nothing about him being "sin-prone" but only that he didn't resist temptation although he could have done so.
     
  18. 3 Resurrections

    3 Resurrections That's 666 YEARS, folks

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    You're right, which is why I deliberately wrote that "I propose..." this to be true. I am trying to trace a pattern throughout the history of mankind, and deduce God's reasons for doing things the way He did. I want to have "the mind of Christ" about these things. Of course, you can offer a counter reason for God to have offered a free will choice to the original couple, which I would read and consider.

    Being a variety of Preterist, I also plug in the history of Satan's record of activity in this world - and when God turned him into literal ashes in AD 70. The effect of the presence of the Satanic realm in this world plays into God's reason for allowing the evil spirit realm to have operated in His creation in varying levels of influence over time.

    Simply put, I believe Satan was described in scripture as having full range of influence for the first 3 millennia of human history. Paul termed this "the times of this ignorance", when God suffered all nations to walk in their own ways. Then during the 4th Revelation 20 millennium (from 967/968 BC until AD 33), he was bound, with his deception over the nations curtailed by a chain. Then he was "loosed" in full fury for only a "short time" and a "little season" from Christ's resurrection in AD 33 until AD 66, when God imprisoned his entire demonic realm in the city of Jerusalem, and then slew that dragon at the close of AD 70. Since then, humanity has had an opportunity to display what happens when there is no demonic realm around to instigate wickedness directly. As could be expected of fallen creatures, we don't need Satan or his devils around to come up with evil in this world. Satan may have gotten the ball rolling, but we have continued to kick that ball down the road on our own. In fact, our sin is actually more egregious than Satan's, since humanity is sinning against grace offered by Christ's crucifixion for mankind - not for angels.

    I expect at the final judgment, that God will hold up the record of humanity's offenses throughout time, showing us that we were equally capable of choosing to sin, regardless of the presence (or eradication) of Satan's influence in this world; whether "bound", "loosed", or GONE.
     
  19. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    Nothing is said about some angels being given something different than those angels who sinned, which would be totally unjust on God’s part.

    This is pure speculation on your part: “Adam and Eve only had free will to show us all how DANGEROUS free will is…”.

    I explained why free will is needed for humans to fulfill their earthly objective, which you did not address.
     
  20. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    Do you feel: Christ was a created being?

    Do you feel: God could be lying to us and God could sin?

    Do you feel: God could do stuff less than the very best thing that could be done?

    God gave promises, so does God have to keep those promises?
     
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