Free Will - God's test that all mankind flunks

Clare73

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Actually it was post 680 and quoted by you in 682, I am referring to scripture you should know by heart. Like Jesus often said, "have you not read?"
Who authorized the specific list that I am to know by heart?

If I am going to specifically address Scripture, I need to know specifically to what Scriptures you are referring that I may examine them from the text, not from fallible memory.
Wow, talk about having the cart before the horse : ) That is like saying we are murders before we murder someone. We are born guilty of having broken all the laws?!
Does not the NT state that to break one law is to break them all?

Are you saying your standing with God is based on your law-keeping?
 
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childeye 2

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Sorry,
I DO ACCEPT that we are all as carnal as Adam, that carnality is a state that is common to us all! I just deny that we inherited this state from Adam and suggest that we got it only by a free will choice to repudiate GOD or HIS commands as did Adam and Satan.
Tell me what you think about this. If the term Free will by definition has baked into it, the ability to deny God, is it not sin to consider there's even an option?
 
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Clare73

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You don't know Ezk: 18? You should.
I didn't get the memo on the authorized list of Scriptures to commit to memory.
It is not a riddle or dark prophecy either but speaks clearly to a correct understanding of Rom. 5 and has been brought to your attention many times. There is dark and riddle prophecy in both Old & New Testament so the idea that one is more authoritative than the other is blatantly false. Claiming or pretending to not know certain scripture is like selective ignorance on your part Clare, I don't buy it : )
I see a lot about, but no presentation of what I am to address.

Why the reluctance to present what I am to address?
I will address it when it is presented.
 
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Clare73

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Then it is a natural law (of suffering and death) that GOD put us under or into for no reason at all when HE could have made us innocent as HE did for Adam and Eve.

If my creation was my natural conception as human in Adam's line, inheriting Adam's sinfulness so I am evil, which is more loving: 1. To create me evil by creating me as human inheriting Adam's sin or 2. creating me innocent as HE did for Adam and Eve...or even Satan?
Don't ignore it, ok? Justify how love can create evil, how light can create dark.
OK. . .then I first need to know by whose wisdom, purpose and plan I am to measure this, yours or God's?

See post #705, below.
 
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Clare73

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I do not deny the truth of scripture, just your interpretation of it...though I'm skeptical when you imply that your interpretation IS the expression of Biblical truth, especially when you ONLY repeat your doctrine over and over and
ignored the verses that are in obvious contradiction to that doctrine.
God does not contradict himself in his word written.

Have you presented any such verses for me to reconcile?
I must have had this so called power, the power of a free will, but I chose to rebel against HIS command, losing my free will to the enslaving addiction (power?) of sin. Why would HE allow Satan a free will but relegate HIS beloved Bride to a life of suffering and death by making her to inherit another's sinfulness contra Jer 31:30 ...each will die for his own iniquity. ??
Precisely. . .
Would you exegete the verses I put forward for me, please, not just repeat your eisegetic interpretation of other verses?

I will repeat myself: I do NOT deny that all sinners are under the condemnation/judgement of death which we inherit from Adam but that does NOT prove that we must therefore have become sinners by being created in Adam!!!
OK. . .

The cause of all death is sin. . .The wages of sin is death. (Romans 6:23)
And sin is transgression of the law, and where there is no law there is no sin (transgression).
There was no law between Adam and Moses, so there was no sin (Romans 5:14), but they all died, which is due to sin.
So for what sin of theirs did they die?

They died for the sin which made them sinners (Romans 5:19). . .by imputation to them of Adam's sin,
just as by faith we are made righteous by imputation of Christ's righteousness to us (Romans 5:18-10), as God's righteousness (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21-22) was imputed to Abraham (Romans 4:3; Genesis 15:6) because of faith.

Having shown God's imputation of Adam's sin to those between Adam and Moses (Romans 5:12-14), Paul then completes the NT doctrine of imputation in two contrasting parallels of imputation, of sin and of righteousness, in Romans 5:18-19.

Note that Paul says in 5:18 that we are all (those in Adam) condemned by Adam's sin,
just as we are all (those in Christ) justified by Christ's righteousness.

And particularly note that he says in 5:19, that we were all made sinners by Adam's transgression,
just as we are all made righteous by Jesus Christ's righteousness (obedience).

Note that in neither half of the parallels does the outcome (guilt vs. righteousness) have anything to do with what man did, or our involvement would not be of the same nature in them, and his parallelism of contrasting imputations would be destroyed.

Paul's meaning in Romans 5:18-19 is that Adam's guilt is imputed to us, just as (in the same way) Christ's righteousness is imputed to us.

We are born sinners, born guilty of Adam's sin because God has imputed Adam's sin to those born of Adam. . .just as he has imputed Christ's righteousness to those born again of Christ.

God has shut up all mankind in sin (Romans 3:19; Galatians 3:22) and left them without excuse (Romans 1:20), so that Christ may be their only hope, source and remedy (Romans 5:20-21; Galatians 3:22; Colossians 1:17-20).

God has decreed that all things shall come to all men (Gentile as well as Jew) in Christ alone (2 Corinthians 1:20; Matthew 11:27; John 14:6; Romans 15:8; Galatians 3:16) and, therefore, God has shut up all men (Jew as well as Gentile) in guilt and sin (Romans 3:9-12, 19, 5:19-20, 11:30-32), not leaving even the possibility that man can have anything outside Christ, except a promise to perish (John 3:16, John 3:18, John 3:36).

And in this way the wisdom of God accomplishes his eternal decree (Psalms 2:7; Luke 22:22; John 6:40, 10:18, 14:31) regarding his Christ (Ephesians 1:9-10; Colossians 2:2-3), all things being created by him and for him, (Colossians 1:17-20) Christ in us, the hope of glory (Colossians 1:26-28).
 
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Clare73

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I'd like to study up on this natural law...where can I find it please? Which verses is it in?
We can start with "what goes up must come down," and then there is Romans 1:18-20;
Romans 2:14-15.
 
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Clare73

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I believe we have the same evil nature as Adam but I reject most vehemently that we got it by inheriting it from Adam. We got it the same way he did and that is why we are the same as him...

ONLY a free will decision to repudiate GOD or to rebel against HIS methods and commands makes anyone an evil sinner in their soul. Anything else is an injustice and blasphemous to HIS good Name.
Sorry,
I DO ACCEPT that we are all as carnal as Adam, that carnality is a state that is common to us all! I just deny that we inherited this state from Adam and suggest that we got it only by a free will decision to repudiate GOD or HIS commands like Adam and Satan.
See post #705, above.
 
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misput

JimD
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Sorry misput, inheriting a sinful nature at our creation is contrary to becoming a sinner by sinning. Our choice to sin is the only method by which anyone can become sinful in their nature...just like Satan, just like Adam.

Why would HE allow HIS most dreaded enemy, Satan, a free will choice to be good or evil but HIS Bride, predestined to the heavenly marriage, must be born with a sinful nature into a life of suffering and death for no choice of their own???
I should have said fleshly nature but a fleshly nature is a sinful nature, you know, the nature everyone from Adam to Jesus has to deal with. Whether we inherited it or acquired it, makes no difference.
 
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misput

JimD
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Who authorized the specific list that I am to know by heart?

If I am going to specifically address Scripture, I need to know specifically to what Scriptures you are referring that I may examine them from the text, not from fallible memory.

Does not the NT state that to break one law is to break them all?

Are you saying your standing with God is based on your law-keeping?
Ezek. 18
 
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misput

JimD
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Thanks. . .is reversal the issue?

But isn't Ezekiel 18 a complete reversal of Exodus 34:7; Numbers 14:18; Jeremiah 32:18?
.
No, it is about a Jewish misunderstanding of those scriptures.

Children do naturally (not by inheriting) suffer because of their parents sin. The Jews were trying to blame inherited sin the same way you are and God through Ezekiel is setting them straight.
 
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Clare73

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No, it is about a Jewish misunderstanding of those scriptures.
You're gonna' have to do better than that!

Exodus 34:7; Numbers 14:18; Jeremiah 32:18 could not be more clearly stated, and you have absolutely no Biblical warrant for denying their plain meaning.

Your theology drives your interpretation of Scripture, rather than the plain Scriptures driving your theology.

Not good. . .
 
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Clare73

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Sin is never inherited. It is credited/imputed to us when we sin.
To credit/impute means you did nothing to get it (Romans 4:4-5), as Abraham's righteousness was imputed/credited to him (Romans 4:3; Genesis 15:6) because of faith, apart from anything he did (works). (Romans 4:1-5)

The guilt of Adam's sin is imputed to those of Adam (Romans 5:18a-19a),
just as the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed by faith to those of Christ (Romans 5:18b,19b), as righteousness was imputed to Abraham by faith (Romans 4:1-5),
and, therefore, all those born of Adam are born condemned (Romans 5:18) by his guilt imputed to them.
 
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misput

JimD
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You're gonna' have to do better than that!

Exodus 34:7; Numbers 14:18; Jeremiah 32:18 could not be more clearly stated, and you have absolutely no Biblical warrant for denying their plain meaning.

Your theology drives your interpretation of Scripture, rather than the plain Scriptures driving your theology.

Not good. . .
Obviously you did no understand Ezek. 18, sorry.
 
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misput

JimD
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Talk is easy.
Please Biblically demonstrate what I got wrong.
It cannot be demonstrated any more clearly than Ezekiel 18. Which also debunks once saved always saved and the common interpretation of predestination.
 
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Bruce Leiter

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Free will tends to be a subject treated as a sort of sacred cow that none dare look at disparagingly.

Isaiah 55:9 tells us, "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." So what would naturally seem to us to be a subject that we should esteem and cherish (like our option to choose), God more than likely has different thoughts than ours about it.

I propose that God offered free will choice to the originally sinless couple, simply to give an eternal display that any created being (whether angelic or human), when offered the option of choice, unless supernaturally upheld and enabled by God, will eventually and inevitably succumb to making a choice for evil, thus resulting in death and separation from God's perfection. Only God the Creator Himself can be trusted with this dangerous power of free will; One who can be counted on to NEVER default into making an evil choice with that power.

Free will handed to fallen creatures is a double-edged sword that we wield to our own destruction. It would seem that heaven, as the final purified state for us, will include the removal of all impulses to choose anything other than God's perfect will. Anything less than being totally submerged in God's will would be to live precariously at risk for another fall into sin. To be thus exposed to the possibility of another fall would not be a restful state to remain in for all eternity.

Humanity has devised pejorative terms for such a perfected state; terms such as "mindless robot", "slave", "the Borg mentality", etc.. Christ Himself was not averse to claiming total subjection to the Father's will, saying "I do always those things that please him", and "Not my will, but thine be done". Yet we do not despise Christ for voicing this total merging of His own will with that of the Father. Why should this be something repugnant when it comes to the idea of our having free will stripped from us in the final perfected state?

I have never liked the term "free will" as misleading. We are born into this world as slaves of Satan and dead to God (see Ephesians 2:1-3). When we become believers, he raises us to new life to become his willing children serving him (Ephesians 2:4-10). In what way is our will "free"?
 
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