Free Masons

Rhamiel · May 20, 2013

yeah like i said before, i do not buy all the crazy theories

I do not think the freemasons are thousands of years old
or that they control everything

I think that it can be shown historically that they were involved in many revolutions in the late 1700's and early 1800's

but yeah, i do not really buy most of those crazy theories

Defensor Christi · May 20, 2013

Rhamiel said:
yeah like i said before, i do not buy all the crazy theories

I do not think the freemasons are thousands of years old
or that they control everything

I think that it can be shown historically that they were involved in many revolutions in the late 1700's and early 1800's

but yeah, i do not really buy most of those crazy theories

Yeah, and the crazy theory comes from one of their own members...makes a guy wonder ya know?

Simpleman25 · May 20, 2013

Guys like that do tend to ruin it for the rest of us. That is true of most societal issues of today.

Some freemasons like to puff out their chest and make claims that just are not real. I've attended Masonic meetings in various countries around the globe. If one were to study our own writings they would know what and who we are.

Some masons blur the line between operative and speculative masonry. In our literature it clearly defines the two. Any man that knows our ritualistic work would know the difference.

This is one reason I've gone to sites like this. To offer up honest answers about freemasonry. I'm not here to recruit, rather to educate.

There are denominations that don't look at masonry with a positive eye. That's part of being a secret society. Although I can attest to the fact that there are men from every denomination, including Catholicism.

Defensor Christi · May 20, 2013

Simpleman25 said:
There are denominations that don't look at masonry with a positive eye. That's part of being a secret society. Although I can attest to the fact that there are men from every denomination, including Catholicism.

I wonder how in tune with Catholic teachings these men are...some may not even know the Church has clearly stated that one cannot be both Mason and Catholic..

americanvet · May 20, 2013

F. & A. M. and A. F. & A. M. has nothing to do with Prince Hall or non-Prince Hall. It has to do with the lineage of the Grand Lodge your Grand Lodge descended from. There is absolutely ZERO evidence that speculative Masonry was around prior to 1300's. There is very little to suggest the 1300's. No one, I repeat no one knows when speculative Masonry started. So all claims are theory at best.

There are theories that King James was a Masons, but again the "facts" are nonexistent. But for the sake of argument lets say that he was. This does not hold any weight to the RCC because they generally don't use the King James Version. As far as Masons recognizing things and understanding things people outside the lodge wouldn't. There is nothing revolutionary in speculative Masonry. Masonry is a system of morality illustrated by symbols and veld in allegory, nothing more, nothing less. Outside the lodge I have no more understanding than any non-Mason on any subject other than Masonry that was learned from Masonry.

I think for both side of this particular thread read more actual history and less theoretical history. Oh and as a man (who is also a Freemason)I do believe 100% Jesus Christ is the One True God, part of the Holy Trinity expressed in Father, Son, and Sprint and that the Holy Bible is God's revealed written revelation to mankind.

Rhamiel · May 20, 2013

americanvet said:
F. & A. M. and A. F. & A. M. has nothing to do with Prince Hall or non-Prince Hall. It has to do with the lineage of the Grand Lodge your Grand Lodge descended from. There is absolutely ZERO evidence that speculative Masonry was around prior to 1300's. There is very little to suggest the 1300's. No one, I repeat no one knows when speculative Masonry started. So all claims are theory at best.

There are theories that King James was a Masons, but again the "facts" are nonexistent. But for the sake of argument lets say that he was. This does not hold any weight to the RCC because they generally don't use the King James Version. As far as Masons recognizing things and understanding things people outside the lodge wouldn't. There is nothing revolutionary in speculative Masonry. Masonry is a system of morality illustrated by symbols and veld in allegory, nothing more, nothing less. Outside the lodge I have no more understanding than any non-Mason on any subject other than Masonry that was learned from Masonry.

I think for both side of this particular thread read more actual history and less theoretical history. Oh and as a man (who is also a Freemason)I do believe 100% Jesus Christ is the One True God, part of the Holy Trinity expressed in Father, Son, and Sprint and that the Holy Bible is God's revealed written revelation to mankind.

God bless you my dear brother in Christ

I am sorry if I seemed like I was taking liberties, it is just the some really crazy claims were being thrown around and I was just having some fun with it.

While I do respect you as a brother in Christ, I do feel like I have to tell you that the foundation of Freemasonry is not Christian, I am not saying it is thousands of years old or pagan
but I am saying that Humanism and other Enlightenment era philosophies are at its heart
have you ever looked up what your own denomination, the United Methodist Church I assume?, teaches about membership in the Freemasons?
just wondering

God bless and thank you for helping to shed light on this topic

ProudMason · May 20, 2013

And by the way tell me about the Grand Lodge of Luxor in Egypt you should know about this right?? that dates far far before the 1300's

americanvet said:
F. & A. M. and A. F. & A. M. has nothing to do with Prince Hall or non-Prince Hall. It has to do with the lineage of the Grand Lodge your Grand Lodge descended from. There is absolutely ZERO evidence that speculative Masonry was around prior to 1300's. There is very little to suggest the 1300's. No one, I repeat no one knows when speculative Masonry started. So all claims are theory at best.

There are theories that King James was a Masons, but again the "facts" are nonexistent. But for the sake of argument lets say that he was. This does not hold any weight to the RCC because they generally don't use the King James Version. As far as Masons recognizing things and understanding things people outside the lodge wouldn't. There is nothing revolutionary in speculative Masonry. Masonry is a system of morality illustrated by symbols and veld in allegory, nothing more, nothing less. Outside the lodge I have no more understanding than any non-Mason on any subject other than Masonry that was learned from Masonry.

I think for both side of this particular thread read more actual history and less theoretical history. Oh and as a man (who is also a Freemason)I do believe 100% Jesus Christ is the One True God, part of the Holy Trinity expressed in Father, Son, and Sprint and that the Holy Bible is God's revealed written revelation to mankind.

Rhamiel · May 20, 2013

i think even the claim that it was founded in the 1300's is kind of apocryphal
that is the idea that the Freemasons grew out of the Masons Guild from the middle ages
there is no real proof of this

Simpleman25 · May 20, 2013

Rhamiel said:
i think even the claim that it was founded in the 1300's is kind of apocryphal
that is the idea that the Freemasons grew out of the Masons Guild from the middle ages
there is no real proof of this

Your stating you don't think freemasonry came from the masons guild?

Rhamiel · May 20, 2013

Simpleman25 said:
Your stating you don't think freemasonry came from the masons guild?

I do not think we can assume it to be fact
unless you have some hard proof on this?

Simpleman25 · May 20, 2013

That is the whole premise behind freemasonry. I was telling you the difference between operative and speculative masonry. Operative were the masons that built the temple. In order to keep the trade secrets they would have passwords so that one may know the other. In darkness as well as in the light.

Look up the legend of Hiram Abiff.

Rhamiel · May 20, 2013

Simpleman25 said:
That is the whole premise behind freemasonry. I was telling you the difference between operative and speculative masonry. Operative were the masons that built the temple. In order to keep the trade secrets they would have passwords so that one may know the other. In darkness as well as in the light.

Look up the legend of Hiram Abiff.

I remember hearing something of the story of Hiram Abiff before

a master builder on Solomons Temple who was murdered
this story is understood as allegory correct?
You are not really linking the Freemasons with the builders of Solomons temple in anything but spirit correct?

anyways, what proof do you have that the Freemasons were founded by members of the Masons Guild?
it is possible that the Freemasons mearly took the symbols and trappings of masonry the same way they used the story of Hiram Abiff? as simple allegory

Root of Jesse · May 20, 2013

Simpleman25 said:
Even though the Catholic church frowns on membership, I've met lots of Catholics that have joined regardless.

There are no such thing as a higher group of masons. Masons are comprised of three degrees commonly known as the blue lodge.

Don't believe all the nonsense you hear.

The problem with this is that you have to choose between obeying God and his body on earth, or someone else. You cannot have two masters.

The Church says it's forbidden, and I'm part of the Church, so I obey, regardless of why or if I agree or not.

Root of Jesse · May 20, 2013

Simpleman25 said:
That is complete and utter nonsense. The lodge does not take the place of my church, nor any church in any country.

Better quit reading those conspiracy nut jobs rantings.

It used to be that the Parish Church was where we had social events, group dinners, etc. It was where the faithful met. Now, you go to your parish only for Mass, one hour a week, plop your dollar bill in the collection plate. The Lodge replaces the Parish as the place for social gathering. It's not about conspiracies.

When you spend your non-working time at your parish, you tend to live more in your faith than if you're disconnected and go only when necessary.

BlackBearFamily · May 20, 2013

Rhamiel said:
very good point

here is another point
many diverse churches and denominations have spoken out against Freemasonry
as the old saying goes, where there is smoke, their is fire ... .

Yes, I agree. I smell smoke.

Rhamiel · May 20, 2013

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/total_truth_sciences/Ko1N43hQicw

an interesting read on Freemasonry by traditional Catholics

americanvet · May 20, 2013

Rhamiel said:
God bless you my dear brother in Christ

I am sorry if I seemed like I was taking liberties, it is just the some really crazy claims were being thrown around and I was just having some fun with it.

While I do respect you as a brother in Christ, I do feel like I have to tell you that the foundation of Freemasonry is not Christian, I am not saying it is thousands of years old or pagan
but I am saying that Humanism and other Enlightenment era philosophies are at its heart
have you ever looked up what your own denomination, the United Methodist Church I assume?, teaches about membership in the Freemasons?
just wondering

God bless and thank you for helping to shed light on this topic

Brother, I don't have any issue with you! Christian brothers and sisters come before Masonic brothers for me. Yes I have talked to my pastors, read on the UMC website, and I have various UMC doctrine books at home. As of today the UMC has no official stance on Masonry. I consider myself a conservative (borderline fundy) protestant. But with that being said I am very loving and accepting of my RCC and various orthodox Christian family members. The best policy for any "flavor" of Christian is love without exception. I think we can disagree with each other about things (to include Masonry) and still deeply love one another!

As far as looking to ancient times for Masonry I have no need to. The Regius Poem which is one of the oldest Masonic documents in the world is dated 1390. From my understanding and the theory I ascribe all of the allegory referring to ancient times is just allegorical and not factual at all. Now if others wish to have a different thoughts on Masonic theory that is fine by me. However, don't berate those who hold a different theory than you.

Simpleman25 · May 20, 2013

Root of Jesse said:
It used to be that the Parish Church was where we had social events, group dinners, etc. It was where the faithful met. Now, you go to your parish only for Mass, one hour a week, plop your dollar bill in the collection plate. The Lodge replaces the Parish as the place for social gathering. It's not about conspiracies.

When you spend your non-working time at your parish, you tend to live more in your faith than if you're disconnected and go only when necessary.

I spend far more time in church than I do in lodge. We have meetings set on a monthly basis at the lodge. I spend more time with my men's church fellowship group than I do in lodge.

As long as God is the center of my life, I can not go wrong. I worship God, not masonry.

Simpleman25 · May 20, 2013

americanvet said:
Brother, I don't have any issue with you! Christian brothers and sisters come before Masonic brothers for me. Yes I have talked to my pastors, read on the UMC website, and I have various UMC doctrine books at home. As of today the UMC has no official stance on Masonry. I consider myself a conservative (borderline fundy) protestant. But with that being said I am very loving and accepting of my RCC and various orthodox Christian family members. The best policy for any "flavor" of Christian is love without exception. I think we can disagree with each other about things (to include Masonry) and still deeply love one another!

As far as looking to ancient times for Masonry I have no need to. The Regius Poem which is one of the oldest Masonic documents in the world is dated 1390. From my understanding and the theory I ascribe all of the allegory referring to ancient times is just allegorical and not factual at all. Now if others wish to have a different thoughts on Masonic theory that is fine by me. However, don't berate those who hold a different theory than you.

Very good words brother.

WarriorAngel · May 20, 2013

Does anyone in here remember Geocajun?
He made it fairly high up in the masons... then he left when he discovered - it is as bad as ppl have reported it.
Then he converted Catholic.

I wonder where he went.

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