Free Masons

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

You are actually still Catholic, even if you are excommunicated. As of now, I think that there is no way to change your canonical status. In the past, I think that you could make a formal act of defection, but that avenue is no longer available.

That said, I'm not entirely sure whether the Code of Canon Law actually declares it to be a latae sententiae excommunication anymore. The current law says that most people (unless they are promoting or directing the association) joining groups like the Free Masons incur "a just penalty", which makes it sound like it's probably a ferendae sententiae penalty (and not necessarily excommunication). The letter from the CDF mentioned in the article linked to on EWTN says that joining a Masonic Lodge puts you in a state of grave sin, but doesn't mention the continuation of the penalty of latae sententiae excommunication.

I could be wrong on that. I'm certainly not a canon lawyer, but if anyone is afraid that they might be under excommunication, speaking to their confessor is probably a better idea than coming to an Internet forum, anyway...

 

[Defensor Christi]

You are actually still Catholic, even if you are excommunicated.

That said, I'm not entirely sure whether the Code of Canon Law actually declares it to be a latae sententiae excommunication anymore. The current law says that people joining groups like the Free Masons incur "a just penalty", which makes it sound like it's probably ferendae sententiae. The letter from the CDF mentioned in the article linked to on EWTN says that joining a Masonic Lodge puts you in a state of grave sin, but doesn't mention the continuation of the penalty of latae sententiae excommunication.

I could be wrong on that. I'm certainly not a canon lawyer, but if anyone is afraid that they might be under excommunication, speaking to their confessor is probably a better idea than coming to an Internet forum, anyway...

You may be right about the penalty of excommunication...I will have to do further research. However, as clearly stated by then Cardinal Ratzinger (approved by Blessed Pope John Paul II)...Catholic members who enroll in Masonry are in a state of grave sin and may not receive communion...

The text states that since the principles of Masonic associations "have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church," membership in them, therefore, "remains forbidden."

"The faithful who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive holy Communion," adds the declaration signed by Cardinal Ratzinger.

Father Zbigniew Suchecki, an expert in the subject, quoted number 1374 of the Code of Canon Law, which reads: "Whoever is inscribed in an association that plots against the Church must be punished with a just penalty; whoever promotes or directs that association, must be banned."

"Masonry's attempts to express divine truths are based on relativism and do not agree with the principles of the Christian faith," said the Conventual Franciscan.




Regent Restates Vatican's Anti-Masonry Position | ZENIT - The World Seen From Rome

Declaration on Masonic Associations Nov 26, 1983

 

[Simpleman25]

You are actually still Catholic, even if you are excommunicated. As of now, I think that there is no way to change your canonical status. In the past, I think that you could make a formal act of defection, but that avenue is no longer available.

That said, I'm not entirely sure whether the Code of Canon Law actually declares it to be a latae sententiae excommunication anymore. The current law says that most people (unless they are promoting or directing the association) joining groups like the Free Masons incur "a just penalty", which makes it sound like it's probably a ferendae sententiae penalty (and not necessarily excommunication). The letter from the CDF mentioned in the article linked to on EWTN says that joining a Masonic Lodge puts you in a state of grave sin, but doesn't mention the continuation of the penalty of latae sententiae excommunication.

I could be wrong on that. I'm certainly not a canon lawyer, but if anyone is afraid that they might be under excommunication, speaking to their confessor is probably a better idea than coming to an Internet forum, anyway...

Good and valid points.

 

[Searching_for_Christ]

I thought the name was Christian Forums?

Outsiders can argue about the teachings of the RCC, or any other religion. That right is afforded to us here in the US.

No one likes it when their particular faith is questioned. I think we grow more from it than anything else. We should question authority when we feel the need.

The fact that a few of the men I know are well established in their diocese. Well thought of and good Catholic men. What you think matters not at all.

Actually this has nothing to do with the United States and everything to do with the fact that the rules of this site "Christian forums" is that denomination specific parts of this site are actually "protected" and you can get in big trouble for arguing against Catholics in here. You can do that in the debate sections but you can't argue with Catholics here, just like they can't go to the Methodist part of this forum and argue with you about something regarding methodism.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

I thought the name was Christian Forums?

Outsiders can argue about the teachings of the RCC, or any other religion. That right is afforded to us here in the US.

Some parts of CF, including the sub-forums here in the Congregation section, can't be used to argue against the faith group they're intended for.

You may be right about the penalty of excommunication...I will have to do further research. However, as clearly stated by then Cardinal Ratzinger (approved by Blessed Pope John Paul II)...Catholic members who enroll in Masonry are in a state of grave sin and may not receive communion...

I know. I just thought that I would clarify that, since the EWTN article seems to take the CDF's statement as meaning that the same penalty is still in effect, when in fact it doesn't seem to say that.

Misunderstandings of excommunication are also pretty common, and I take the opportunity to clear them up when I can, particularly since convincing someone that they can "leave the Church" by getting excommunicated actually encourages some people to do it intentionally

 

[paul becke]

Does excommunication have to be a formal process?

In a word, no. It can be automatic on the basis of a personal action or behaviour. Disagreement with some doctrines may make the person not Catholic, but disagreements generally have to be rancorous, belligerent and relatively-widely disseminated, I believe, for a formal excommunication based on doctrinal aberrancy to be pronounced.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I'm pretty sure that joining the masons incurs automatic excommunication from the Church.

It does in Confessional Lutheranism also.

Does excommunication have to be a formal process?

No.

That is complete and utter nonsense. The lodge does not take the place of my church, nor any church in any country.

Better quit reading those conspiracy nut jobs rantings.

No conspiracy; they take a universalist approach to faith; Christianity is fine, but so is any other god. It's the "any other god part that we have a problem with. There is one true God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit; all others are false gods, and by accepting belief in those, the Lodge is "anti-Christian"; an antichrist.

In a word, no. It can be automatic on the basis of a personal action or behaviour. Disagreement with some doctrines may make the person not Catholic, but disagreements generally have to be rancorous, belligerent and relatively-widely disseminated, I believe, for a formal excommunication based on doctrinal aberrancy to be pronounced.

Most "Lutherans" who become Masons, will, knowing our doctrine and by their own choice will stop attending Church; we call this "self exclusion"; however in most situations the excommunication will be formalized.

 

[BlackBearFamily]

My grandfather was a 32nd level Master Mason. Yes, there are levels past the three of the Blue Lodge!

At the higher levels, there are many heresies. In a nutshell, the higher level Masons are taught that all G-ds - even such as Baal - are valid names for our One G-d. Seriously.

When my grandfather converted to Catholicism, he was required to renounce his membership in the Masons, and for good reason.

My father joined the Masons - just the Blue Lodge - but he quit and renounced his membership because of the terrible, violent oaths that they were made to swear. He couldn't tell me the details, because if he did, the curse would come upon him, but he said the oaths contain horrible curses, even against the children of the members.

 

[mark46]

There many masonic organizations. The base level organization has only 3 levels. To move higher, one joins other organizations only open to masons. These have the additional levels.

Baal worship has been common for centuries.

To even suggest that the masons are Christian is strange, since even the Blue Lodge says that it is deist. The Blue Lodge certainly welcomes Jews and Muslims.

The only sense that they COULD be said to be Christian in origin is if they are offshoots of the Templars, which is the suggestion of many conspiracy theorists.

In any case, the masons are considered one of the significant cults by the Church. Unfortunately, Anglicans and Protestants do not have the same discernment, seeing only the apparent good works of the lower levels of the Blue Lodge.

My grandfather was a 32nd level Master Mason. Yes, there are levels past the three of the Blue Lodge!

At the higher levels, there are many heresies. In a nutshell, the higher level Masons are taught that all G-ds - even such as Baal - are valid names for our One G-d. Seriously.

When my grandfather converted to Catholicism, he was required to renounce his membership in the Masons, and for good reason.

My father joined the Masons - just the Blue Lodge - but he quit and renounced his membership because of the terrible, violent oaths that they were made to swear. He couldn't tell me the details, because if he did, the curse would come upon him, but he said the oaths contain horrible curses, even against the children of the members.

 

[BlackBearFamily]

I do recognize the Masonic movement as non-Christian and cult.

 

[mark46]

I apolgoze if it appeared that I suggested otherwise.

I also post on the Anglican board (STR) and well understand that many Anglicans (and of course many others) support freemasonry.

I do recognize the Masonic movement as non-Christian and cult.

 

[BlackBearFamily]

Oh, no reason to apologize; I just wanted to make it clear where I stand on the issue. I wouldn't want others to think I accept the Masonic movement.

 

[Simpleman25]

My grandfather was a 32nd level Master Mason. Yes, there are levels past the three of the Blue Lodge!

At the higher levels, there are many heresies. In a nutshell, the higher level Masons are taught that all G-ds - even such as Baal - are valid names for our One G-d. Seriously.

When my grandfather converted to Catholicism, he was required to renounce his membership in the Masons, and for good reason.

My father joined the Masons - just the Blue Lodge - but he quit and renounced his membership because of the terrible, violent oaths that they were made to swear. He couldn't tell me the details, because if he did, the curse would come upon him, but he said the oaths contain horrible curses, even against the children of the members.

I need to correct you on a few points. Keep in mind my being on these forums is to give honest answers concerning masonry.

There are only three degrees in masonry. They are considered the blue lodge degrees. Anything else is either part of the Scottish or York rites. Those degrees conferred are not 'higher' degrees or higher levels. They are appendent bodies.

The penalty of the oaths your father mentioned are symbolic in nature. No person had ever had these penalties done to them.

The oaths do not carry any curses on the family. This is made up nonsense.

 

[Simpleman25]

I do recognize the Masonic movement as non-Christian and cult.

There is no such thing as a Masonic movement. It makes no sense.

There is also nothing to the claim that we are a cult. Look up the definition and we do not qualify as such.

 

[Simpleman25]

There many masonic organizations. The base level organization has only levels. To move higher, one joins other organizations only open to masons. These have the additional levels.

Baal worship has been common for centuries.

To even suggest that the masons are Christian is strange, since even the Blue Lodge says that it is deist. The Blue Lodge certainly welcomes Jews and Muslims.

The only sense that they COULD be said to be Christian in origin is if they are offshoots of the Templars, which is the suggestion of many conspiracy theorists.

In any case, the masons are considered one of the significant cults by the Church. Unfortunately, Anglicans and Protestants do not have the same discernment, seeing only the apparent good works of the lower levels of the Blue Lodge.

There is some confusion to your post. We do not worship Baal. We are not all deist. While it is true we are open to men of all faiths, it doesn't mean we are not Christians.

I was a Christian prior to becoming a mason. At no time since then have I ever felt that I was in conflict with either. If I were, I would leave freemasonry in a second.


As far as other groups, just read my earlier post.

As I've said, I'm here to answer questions honestly. I have nothing to hide.

 

[Colin]

I'm pretty sure that joining the masons incurs automatic excommunication from the Church.

The Catholic Church has been among the most persistent critics of Freemasonry. The Church has prohibited its members from being Freemasons since In Eminenti Apostolatus in 1738. Since then, the Vatican has issued several papal bulls banning membership of Catholics from Freemasonry under threat of excommunication. Currently, as reiterated in 1983, Catholics who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion; the penalty of excommunication is not declared in the current code of canon law, but membership remains forbidden.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

There is some confusion to your post. We do not worship Baal. We are not all deist. While it is true we are open to men of all faiths, it doesn't mean we are not Christians.

I was a Christian prior to becoming a mason. At no time since then have I ever felt that I was in conflict with either. If I were, I would leave freemasonry in a second.


As far as other groups, just read my earlier post.

As I've said, I'm here to answer questions honestly. I have nothing to hide.

Please try and see it from our point of view: Free Masonry requires belief in a "supreme being", that "supreme being" does not need to be God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit; that god can be any pagan or false god. Since the unifying condition of membership is the belief in any god, that makes the Lodge a deistic fellowship. A Christian's participation (membership) in the lodge is a statement that they are in deistic fellowship with non-Christians; with pagans/heathens.

Unless one's desire is to evangelize non-Christians as Peter and Paul did with the Gentiles (which I'm sure is not allowed), such membership shows an acceptance of these faiths which, as a christian, is at odds with Scripture.

Add to this the "secrets" which smack of Gnosticism, the knowing of which is supposed to benefit the recipient, yet the general population is not worthy of such knowing. (I'll ask in advance that my Catholic friends forgive me for the example I'm about to use.) Martin Luther said of indulgences that the Pope, out of Christian Charity, should not be charging a fee for the forgiveness of sins, he should be doing it free of charge; likewise with these beneficial secrets which the Lodge so earnestly guards. The Church Guards the Gospel, but does not hide it; rather it guards the truth and freely teaches it to all who desire. If these secrets held by the Lodge are so great, share them with all mankind.


That begs the question; is such of any good, is it evil?

It may or may not be evil, but I doubt that there is any benefit.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The Catholic Church has been among the most persistent critics of Freemasonry. The Church has prohibited its members from being Freemasons since In Eminenti Apostolatus in 1738. Since then, the Vatican has issued several papal bulls banning membership of Catholics from Freemasonry under threat of excommunication. Currently, as reiterated in 1983, Catholics who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion; the penalty of excommunication is not declared in the current code of canon law, but membership remains forbidden.

In our communion, any manifest unrepentant sin also automatically precludes one from receiving the Sacrament of the Altar. This is, by default, Excommunication; if that person insists on approaching the Altar, such would be formally pronounced. If such persons excludes themselves from the sacrament, formal pronouncement is not required.

 

[BlackBearFamily]

The penalty of the oaths your father mentioned are symbolic in nature. No person had ever had these penalties done to them.

The oaths do not carry any curses on the family. This is made up nonsense.

The oaths are symbolic? I am not sure about that. Even if many hold they are symbolic in nature, there will be some who would use them as a 'door' and permission to physically sanction those who may not be as close-lipped or whatever as some other Masons.

Whether these penalties have ever been enacted is questionable. There are certain cases in which it would appear that they have been enacted.

You claim there are no curses on the family of the Master Mason? So, my father is a liar? I think not. In fact, his entire reason for leaving the Masons was his fear/concern over the oaths.

 

[Simpleman25]

The oaths are symbolic? I am not sure about that. Even if many hold they are symbolic in nature, there will be some who would use them as a 'door' and permission to physically sanction those who may not be as close-lipped or whatever as some other Masons.

Whether these penalties have ever been enacted is questionable. There are certain cases in which it would appear that they have been enacted.

You claim there are no curses on the family of the Master Mason? So, my father is a liar? I think not. In fact, his entire reason for leaving the Masons was his fear/concern over the oaths.

If I offended you I apologise. I'm not calling your father a liar. That is not my intent. If masonry wasn't for him, he was right in leaving.

If he feared the oaths then he wasn't properly educated by the lodge he was in. There are men on this forum that left masonry. Yet none of them have been injured by the oaths. There are many men worldwide that have left, no one carried out the oaths.

My personal opinion on family curses is simple. I just don't see any factual evidence to support it. Many bad things have happened to those in masonry. The same is true for those not in masonry.