If Christians are leaving because GA is being reorganized into cyberspace, and not because we (and our Saviour) were called everything but what we are, I say "goodbye". (Besides, I have a feeling they'll be back.)CF is losing Christians as fast as it is losing non-Christians, AFAICS. Too many changes, too much division, too much treating adult Christians as if they were five years old.
I have read the whole thread, Bombila, and I think that Arborvita was just trying to keep things cool...as you know it doesn't take much for some threads to quickly get heated, especially when they are about changes at CFEveryone was calm, as you would know if you read the preceding posts. Several people asked why the admonition was made, as none of us could figure out what arborvita was talking about.
CF is losing Christians as fast as it is losing non-Christians, AFAICS. Too many changes, too much division, too much treating adult Christians as if they were five years old.
On this particular issue, whether it's here or not makes no difference, so my question remains: why would anyone be bothered by Christians believing Christianity to be beautiful?I'm not talking about here specifically. I am talking about in general.
I see. Would you remove his freedom to do so? I hold free speech dear, and am relieved that he has the freedom to approach you, just as am relieved you have the freedom to tell him to shut up.You tell me. Is there anyone here who votes for "family values" candidates? Who votes for the religious right? Who supports inappropriate content crusades? Then yes.
I said uninvited evangelism. Uninvited. Uninvited.
I'm not talking about here, where the evangelism is expected (though it doesn't belong in GA). I am talking about someone just showing up on my doorstep. About people who start in on jesus without being asked. Like the guy who started a conversation about computers in the checkout line of Fry's Electronics to get me talking and then suddenly switched it to jesus.
The logic doesn't fly, really. But, am really grateful that you're so open about wishing to see deconversions. I don't think many people would be so honest about it.You asked why it was to my benefit for people to deconvert. One less vote for the religious right. Again, convincing them to not bully others politically would be sufficient.
Am not the boss of you n all that. If that's how you roll, it's your choiceActually, I didn't word that right. When I said "What reason can you provide not to do it?", what I meant was "What reason can you provide for me not attempting to deconvert someone?"
I have read the whole thread, Bombila, and I think that Arborvita was just trying to keep things cool...as you know it doesn't take much for some threads to quickly get heated, especially when they are about changes at CF
Everyone was calm, as you would know if you read the preceding posts. Several people asked why the admonition was made, as none of us could figure out what arborvita was talking about.
CF is losing Christians as fast as it is losing non-Christians, AFAICS. Too many changes, too much division, too much treating adult Christians as if they were five years old.
Anytime, BrotherThank You for getting to this before I could.
Agreed, TenebraeThat was a quick demodding
Another good mod bites the dust
Posted right on the new forum : "Exploring Christianity A Forum for Non Christians to explore Christianity with Christians. No Debating or Apologetics Allowed."
Debate will still not be allowed and it will still not be an apologetic forum.
I hope this will allow any discussion to develop fairly freely.
CF is losing Christians as fast as it is losing non-Christians, AFAICS. Too many changes, too much division, too much treating adult Christians as if they were five years old.
If Christians are leaving because GA is being reorganized into cyberspace, and not because we (and our Saviour) were called everything but what we are, I say "goodbye". (Besides, I have a feeling they'll be back.)
Greetings. There were many times when I felt there were 5 yr olds on that board. I usually just popped in once in awhile to give some Scripture then retreated back to the GT board, though between those 2 boards, I have never really seen much difference in the debating tactics used.Christians are leaving because, as Bombila said, we are being treated like 5-year-olds. Closing GA is just another in a long string of unwise moves by management that are driving members away.
There's nothing wrong with you believing it. Going on and on about it to someone else is just annoying. Like any other salesman. All of them think their product is the greatest thing ever.On this particular issue, whether it's here or not makes no difference, so my question remains: why would anyone be bothered by Christians believing Christianity to be beautiful?
I have never said anything about prohibiting christians from evangelizing. I merely implore them to police themselves by understanding that not everyone is interested, and some of us have bad experiences with christianity. I personally consider it to have destroyed my childhood. Let the other person ask, and then babble about it.I see. Would you remove his freedom to do so? I hold free speech dear, and am relieved that he has the freedom to approach you, just as am relieved you have the freedom to tell him to shut up.
Changing the behavior is the goal. Full deconversion is not necessary for that. On the other hand, I do not consider deconversion to be a bad thing. If it happens, I think the person is better off.But the picture am building is you're angry about how Christianity is perpetuated/"forced" upon you in real life, and you vent your anger about it here; if you have an impact on people's faith as by product, so much the better. Is that about right?
Perhaps. It should be noted that any anger from atheists is in reaction. If not for the things I listed, I would not pay any attention to christianity at all. I didn't for about 40 years, not until the political activism started.If so, I understand to an extent. I wouldn't want to live in a world where I perceived atheism or another faith were being forced upon me. If there are multiple members who use it similarly, it goes some way to explaining why GA is quite as angry and hi-octane as it is. Factor in the Christians who respond with the flesh as opposed to temperance and love, and GA is a big ole mess, and it's not doing any good to anyone - either Christian or non-.
What is wrong with it? I don't want to get rid of christianity, just its power over me. How can decreasing that power by removing votes not help?The logic doesn't fly, really.
I didn't quite say that. I said they are of benefit to me. If people will learn to stop dominating society just because they can, deconversion is not necessary.But, am really grateful that you're so open about wishing to see deconversions. I don't think many people would be so honest about it.
It's not quite that equal. They do more than try to convert me. They try to restrict my behavior with legislation. In contrast, I don't want to restrict them from practicing their religion or anything else they want to do. Just the things that have a detrimental effect on me.Am not the boss of you n all that. If that's how you roll, it's your choiceBut at some point it'd be worthwhile acknowledging that by attempting to deconvert people, you've become as the people you're so angry at; the people who think Christianity is so wonderful and try to convert you.
Again, apologetics is a christian thing. It is supposed to have a benefit for christians, otherwise why would it exist? It is actually the christians who are using it incorrectly when they preach and try to convert, because it is intended for testing their own faith. What I do falls perfectly well into the realm of apologetics, no matter what my motivation.So GA is a mire of people trying to convert and deconvert people, getting increasingly embroiled in the ugliness, becoming increasingly desensitized to it and eventually adding to it.
Ultimately, if you have a desire to see people deconverted, that's your right. But CF isn't obliged to provide a place for you to work it. Looking at it objectively, that's fair enough, isn't it?
Christians are leaving because, as Bombila said, we are being treated like 5-year-olds. ...
Greetings! I noticed some atheists are putting up links to sites for Apologetics. I doubt I will be going to any of them as I really like debating/discussing Scriptures with others Christians.......PeaceAgain, apologetics is a christian thing. It is supposed to have a benefit for christians, otherwise why would it exist? It is actually the christians who are using it incorrectly when they preach and try to convert, because it is intended for testing their own faith. What I do falls perfectly well into the realm of apologetics, no matter what my motivation.
You either have a apologetics forum or you don't. That's up to you.
Since the site was created, its focus was to establish the largest Christian message board community in the world. The forum's motto was "Uniting All Christians As One Body". Forums placed limits on the users who can post on them, many of the forums were only open to Christians (as defined by the Nicene Creed). CF seperated forums into two completely seperate sections - Christian and non-Christian forums. People tend to forget that when the forums were seperate, when there were more restrictions, we had the highest traffic numbers. It was only after the reforms of July 7th, that our numbers began to slip. After a few short months the site was sold to LeeD who returned the site's name to Christian Forums and refocused its vision more in line with the original vision of the site.
LeeD is not returning this site to it's original vision. Erwin's vision was a place where people could actually talk and debate among other things. Leed and the advisors, many of whom I foolishly believed to be friends, are set on making this one big US-Conservative Christian hug.
So I guess I'll pop in from time to time but basically I'm gone as well.
Kiwimac
Priest and Theologian
Ex Super-admin
Ex Wiki Guru
Ex Site Archivist
Ex Moderator
Ex Conciliator.
I think this is both good and bad. The first part is badly needed since many use questions by non christians as a way to get around posting guidelines to debate in GA which isnt what the forum was for.
Sad to see GA go - it is a useful forum but lacks strong leadership in staff to moderate it properly - it should have never even been considered to be moderated by non believers and should only have been moderated by mature christians secure in their faith who are skillfull in apologetics and who have no trouble enforcing the guidelines of the site.
There should be some outreach even with the focus on inreach. The problem with GA is that for far too long the guidelines havent been enforced and should be strongly enforced in an area where outreach can occur. The problem has been allowing it to be savehaven for other beliefs instead of a place to give a defense for the hope that is in us like the bible states.
This is throwing the baby out with the bathwater imo.
Sigh.
For all the problems with the discussions here I've got a lot out of this place. There's a place for safe spaces, and there is a place for a limted questions and answers board, but there is also a place for open dialog with whomsoever wants to talk.
The new Exploring Christianity forum seems to be no more than the old QNC rebadged. That forum served a useful purpose, but in no way can it duplicate the type of open dialog possible here.
I don't want a place where my ideas are never challenged, where hard questions can't be asked, where different ideas are never heard. If this goes ahead I'll be looking for another site. Where are you guys off to?
A few years ago I was searching for some forums, essentially for Christians but where contributions from non-Christians were welcomed. The majority of the forums for Christians did not welcome contributions from non-Christians. Christian Forums was an exception. In particular, the General Apologetics forum was valuable to me, someone who has been seeking for the truth for a very long time.
It is sad that the General Apologetics forum is being closed because of a desire for Christians to be looking inwards. It sounds good to say that you are focussing inward on the body of Christ, but Christ also told his followers to go out into the world to make disciples of all men. There are many forums in CF that are for Christians only, in which Christians can do all of the things that you say are important. In other words, any Christian who wants to avoid on-line contact with non-Christians can do so by only visiting the Christian-only forums.
If there have been some contributors to CF who have been causing strife and infighting, or endlessly debating against Christianity then maybe your rules should be modified or enforced more strictly to control this. Instead, it seems that all of us are being punished for the sins of a few. However, I realise that the concept of one person having to suffer for the sins of others is an aspect of Christianity, although it is not one that I myself subscribe to.
The new Exploring Christianity forum will be able to cover a small part of what was possible in General Apologetics. However, as far as I am aware there will be nowhere in CF for the following:
1. Christians to ask questions of non-Christians, or to challenge non-Christians.
2. Non-Christians to offer support to one another. It is unfortunate but many people have been seriously damaged by Christianity or by Christians.
3. Non-Christians to offer support to Christians. Yes, it does happen. For example a person who is going through a crisis of faith can sometimes get better help from a non-Christian or a former Christian than from a Christian, and be brought back into faith.
4. Non-Christians to point out the errors of other non-Christians.
5. Christians or non-Christians to ask non-Christians for information. Information which could help someone to find faith or to have their faith strengthened.
As a seeker after truth, I have received considerable help from Christians through General Apologetics.
It is sad that the effectiveness of CF in reaching non-Christians and potentially leading them to Christ is to be reduced simply because of a dislike for debate.
The fact remains, this site cant even manage inreach effectively. I know of one case where a christian poster made blatant suicidal posts, and it took the staff over 2 weeks to notice that something was wrong. I guess its a good thing that member wasnt relying on this site for support.
Where two or three are gathered, and the black sheep of the family lies dying in the back room while the nice christians fail to notice the blood seeping under the door.
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