Foru.ms - a new beginning and a fresh start (2)

[Faith In God]

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[SunMessenger]

Not being on staff I dont see all this and agree that there should be places for those who SINCERELY want to ask questions or even disagree, it should not be exclusive but we digress. I say bring it back the old way as 60 per cent of us want and tweak the system and Erwin should bring back the old staff that couldnt condone this and replace thjose who advised him to do this. As for that poll, I will leave it up to Erwin to think about that one and what the motivation for it was.

I could not agree more. That was my very first question on 7/7/7. Why burn the house down when only a few windows need to be cleaned ? I never got an answer to that even in my resignation letter that day. A lack of leadership is what is making this the mess that it is.

 

[New Creation]

Just wanted to post my two cents as this place has been an important one for me for a long time.

I came here four years ago as a brand new Christian. I googled Christian Forums and this is what I got. Living in a rural area, I did not have a lot of opportunity to gather with other Christians to learn and grow, so I did a lot of that here. I am very grateful that I knew I could trust the other Christians that I was speaking to (for the most part). I don't think that will be the case for new Christians who come here now. I am afraid that they will be confused by many different versions of Christ and get a false, watered-down theology.

I have to also profess my ignorance about the 777 changes- I just go automatically to a few areas without checking much else- parenting, survivors of the sex industry, marriage ministry and a few others so I never knew about the changes until I saw the site name change. ( I have a one year old; I don't have time to debate theology. Actually, I don't even have time to write this- you should see the mess she is making as I write- but I really wanted to state my opinion.)

I have made good friends here. I have shared the joy of my marriage and the birth of my daughter here. I have asked for advice here. I have given encouragement here. I have been inspired and disgusted here. I have been insulted and praised.

In other words, it's a lot like real life.

I've had the pleasure of sharing on other forums,
but the thing that set this place apart for me was that it was DEDICATED TO THE GLORIFICATION OF JESUS CHRIST, OUR LORD, MY SAVIOUR.

It was CHRISTIAN FORUMS.

Can it be any more obvious?

I appreciate all the work and heartache that Erwin has put in over the years. I think he's slightly mad to have as much on his plate as he does. Perhaps that workload prevented him from seeing how important it is to glorify the name of Christ. Hey, I've done it before. We're all humans and we're all sinners. Thank Christ He forgives us.

Not really sure of what I'm trying to say here except I am heartbroken that the name of our Lord is no longer front and center.

I don't have a problem intermingling with people of other faiths- never have. I do think it's important, however, to have a place where Christians can talk to each other without having to endure the slings and arrows of insults from nonbelievers. We get enough of that every day.

Many non-believers are saying "it's just a name".

But we all know that words have great power. To name something is a big deal. If defines. It starts a direction.

How many people swear with Buddha's name or Mohammed's? Only Jesus Christ's name -even to the non-believers- has that much power.

The name of Christ is the most powerful name in the universe. It is the name that every tongue will confess in the end.

I'm going to ride this out and see how it goes. And I suggest that we all pray about it. God may want some of us here and he may want others to move on.

Gotta go. My kid's eating dirt.

 

[Scholar in training]

You're missing the point.

The point is that truths are subjectively held. Sure Christ's resurrection either happened or it did not happen one of which is a true statement.

BUT, truths are only true to you if you have experienced them through your subjective self.

I still don't even understand what that means. How is that a meaningful distinction in real life?

If you go back to the statement in the other thread that initiated this side-discussion you will see that the only point I was trying to make is that individual faiths which make contradictory messages can still be true in their own ways (existentially) even if some of the beliefs that compose one of the faiths do not correspond to reality.

No one is denying that different religions can contains an element of the truth. That's obvious! It has been argued at least by Justin Martyr at the beginning of the second century down to the present day.

And although there are elements of truth in other religions, we cannot compromise those truths (the resurrection and many others) that are so vital to our understanding of God and the historical Christ.

I don't believe that pulling up the tares is my job

Defending God isn't your job either, I guess.

Also, you can make positive statements about what constitutes orthodox theology without making exclusive statements about who is or is not Christian.

You can make statements and even historical judgments about a person's theological beliefs without judging whether or not that person is a Christian...

No, you cannot. If a Christian is defined by his belief that Jesus was the eternal Wisdom of God, born of a virgin, suffered, died, and buried under Pilate, risen from the dead on the third day, ascended, and will return, then someone who does not believe those things is by definition not a Christian. (If a Christian is not defined by these things, then what is he defined by and what is the historical precedent for this definition?)

It's disturbing to me that people are willing to make allowances with these and other "cardinal" beliefs. It is tantamount to saying that more than one belief and historical understanding of Christ is valid.

 

[stumpjumper]

Not being on staff I dont see all this and agree that there should be places for those who SINCERELY want to ask questions or even disagree, it should not be exclusive but we digress. I say bring it back the old way as 60 per cent of us want and tweak the system and Erwin should bring back the old staff that couldnt condone this and replace thjose who advised him to do this. As for that poll, I will leave it up to Erwin to think about that one and what the motivation for it was.

Well I pretty much agree.

I do think other courses of action in addressing the issues could have been made. All in all, even though I didn't agree with all the changes in July, I do think that overall they were beneficial for the sites goal.

The name change doesn't make much sense to me...

 

[Sign Of The Fish Burger]

*subscribing*

 

[Faith In God]

You know, Erwin could always send out a universal PM to get everyone's vote instead of 80 people.
Just a thought.

 

[meh]

Of the Admins and staff I've talked to who have left, most agree they'd return if Christian Forums was reinstated to a site that glorifies the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and all that being a Christian means. But to return now would be hypocritical and staff that left are being obedient to how the Lord is leading them and continue to pray that the Lord will touch Erwins heart and show him the error of his ways. No God fearing Christian would follow Erwins lead and bow down to the ways of the world!

I was on staff last year when there was a mass exodus of staff due to Erwin forcing horrid rules on us. He made this hideous reform and then disappeared. He's gonna do the same this time. Come in, impose a horrible reform and then not be here to deal with the backlash. His concern is making this site more secular like myspace so it will generate him some more money. Sad but true.

And they should follow how they are being led. Others have been led to believe there is still hope here and Christ is still here and have even come to like many of the changes after a time away and some prayer. God changes hearts all the time for His purpose. Not everyone is called or led in the same way. Your way isn't the only right way. It's the way God is calling you.

No God fearing Christian would follow Erwins lead and bow down to the ways of the world!

for the record, I am a God fearing Christian who bows to no one but Jesus Christ. Because I've been led by the Lord in a way you have not doesn't make me any less God fearing or Christian than you are.

 

[SunMessenger]

You know, Erwin could always send out a universal PM to get everyone's vote instead of 80 people.
Just a thought.

Good thought too ! By the way there were many ways to bring this poll to the public eye and get many more votes. Just look at what is happening here. This area would have been a better place and then a follow up with more announcements and PMs. Really the guy is great at tech issues he could have come up with even better means than these few listed I am sure...

 

[pgp_protector]

Good thought too ! By the way there were many ways to bring this poll to the public eye and get many more votes. Just look at what is happening here. This area would have been a better place and then a follow up with more announcements and PMs. Really the guy is great at tech issues he could have come up with even better means than these few listed I am sure...

heck he could of even put an important poll on the main / front page.

 

[stumpjumper]

I still don't even understand what that means. How is that a meaningful distinction in real life?

Because if you take subjectivity out of experiences and personal truths you remove yourself from the equation entirely.

You see this in Hegelianism and in lot of the strictly evidentialist epistemological systems (Dawkins et al).

No one is denying that different religions can contains an element of the truth. That's obvious!

First, I could guarantee that we can round up a lot of members here that would argue just that

You need to get out more

Defending God isn't your job either, I guess.

You're a clever one, eh?

No, you cannot.

Just for you since you want to stand up for God.

St, Matthew wrote that God incarnate said this:

Matthew 13
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
​

If a Christian is defined by his belief that Jesus was the eternal Wisdom of God, born of a virgin, suffered, died, and buried under Pilate, risen from the dead on the third day, ascended, and will return, then someone who does not believe those things is by definition not a Christian.

That's a really bad way to define Christian.

How about we stick with a disciple of Christ.

Sure some disciples disagree about who Christ was and what he believes is important for our life but if someone has picked up their cross and have chosen to follow Christ even if their understanding and knowledge of Christ is limited, they have the right to consider themselves Christian.

You do not have the right to say that they are not Christian.

You are not God.

 

[Time2BCounted]

heck he could of even put an important poll on the main / front page.

Theres a great suggestion. Whatever it comes to i do believe however, that given inconsistancies concerning the dropping of the nicene creed and deferring to the majority concerning the name, the poll should definatly be public and not private, and that everyone have plenty of time to think and pray and vote... otherwise it may turn out to be just another sham such as the last 2 broken promices.

 

[Time2BCounted]

Because if you take subjectivity out of experiences and personal truths you remove yourself from the equation entirely.

You see this in Hegelianism and in lot of the strictly evidentialist epistemological systems (Dawkins et al).




First, I could guarantee that we can round up a lot of members here that would argue just that

You need to get out more



You're a clever one, eh?



Just for you since you want to stand up for God.

St, Matthew wrote that God incarnate said this:

Matthew 13
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
​

That's a really bad way to define Christian.

How about we stick with a disciple of Christ.

Sure some disciples disagree about who Christ was and what he believes is important for our life but if someone has picked up their cross and have chosen to follow Christ even if their understanding and knowledge of Christ is limited, they have the right to consider themselves Christian.

You do not have the right to say that they are not Christian.

You are not God.

In order to be accepted Jesus Himself said we must not just believe, but we must believe He is whom He claims to be. Universalists do not believe this and yet now they are officially recognized as 'Christian' on this board. You dont think at least 1 soul who is weak or unlearned will likely be lost over this confusion?

It will likely be much more than that if God tarries, but is even one lost soul wirth this crap? I think not personally as i have a great burden for young Christians to try to help them in the basic doctrines of Christ. If even one soul is lost and we didnt stand, as God told Ezekiel, as watchmen we will have their blood on our hands.

We shouldnt think of this in such shallow levels imho

 

[stumpjumper]

Scholar In Training

I would have to say that our discussion is a wonderful parody that demonstrates the fundamental disconnect between conservatives on this forum who want Christianity to be exclusive and those who actually want to unite Christians...

 

[Scholar in training]

Because if you take subjectivity out of experiences and personal truths you remove yourself from the equation entirely.

You see this in Hegelianism and in lot of the strictly evidentialist epistemological systems (Dawkins et al).

I've already been walking a middle ground between "subjectivity" and "objectivity," evidenced when I said that there's a difference between a degree of subjectivity and wholesale subjectivity. "Wholesale subjectivity" being the view that says anything is possible, the view you espouse below.

Just for you since you want to stand up for God.

St, Matthew wrote that God incarnate said this:

Matthew 13
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
​

Following your interpretation, Jesus was inconsistent throughout his ministry. Wouldn't it have been easier to buddy up with the Pharisees than call them the "brood of vipers"? Wouldn't it have been easier to continue to let the Pharisees keep "unclean" people out of the Temple instead of denouncing them and driving out the moneychangers? There would have been no need for that messy crucifixion.

That's a really bad way to define Christian.

How about we stick with a disciple of Christ.

Sure some disciples disagree about who Christ was and what he believes is important for our life but if someone has picked up their cross and have chosen to follow Christ even if their understanding and knowledge of Christ is limited, they have the right to consider themselves Christian.

That's not minor! The person of Christ is central to Christianity, because depending on who he is and what he's done our concept of salvation and our view of the world changes. Indeed, because the view changes, it's not just one religion anymore, it's more like an amalgam.

It sounds almost like you're arguing for a works-based salvation. If we deconstruct the person of Christ, we can also deconstruct what it means to be a follower: "I follow Christ. But what does it mean to follow Christ? It can mean anything and nothing, because Christ can be anyone or anything. It means acting how I want to act." This view is not only dishonest and shameful if we want to be true to God, but it's selling Christians short who can look at the evidence for themselves and make the right conclusions.

However, no one has the "right" to consider themselves Christian. Everyone must continually evaluate their walk and "test the spirits." I am no exception.

You do not have the right to say that they are not Christian.

You are not God.

I'm not Paul, but it seems to me that as an Apostle he spoke for who was and who wasn't a Christian, and he wasn't God. Remember, division is necessary to an extent to determine the truth. Without Paul, we might still have to become Jewish before becoming Christian. I don't particularly like circumcision.

 

[stumpjumper]

In order to be accepted Jesus Himself said we must not just believe, but we must believe He is whom He claims to be.

We must accept Jesus into our heart as he is not as who we want him to be, yes.

None of that implies absolutely correct theology, though.

It implies submitting ourselves to God regardless of what our limited understanding of God actually consists of....

Universalists do not believe this and yet now they are officially recognized as 'Christian' on this board. You dont think at least 1 soul who is weak or unlearned will likely be lost over this confusion?

I really don't think universalist thinking leads people away from God.
In fact, I would say an exclusive and country club type view of Christianity does more damage in that regards...

It will likely be much more than that if God tarries, but is even one lost soul wirth this crap? I think not personally as i have a great burden for young Christians to try to help them in the basic doctrines of Christ. If even one soul is lost and we didnt stand, as God told Ezekiel, as watchmen we will have their blood on our hands.

We shouldnt think of this in such shallow levels imho

Well. I find nothing wrong with standing up for what you believe is true.

However, from the perspective of a former staff member here, using faith icons, inquisitions into beliefs, having Christian Only sections, and defining Christianity in an exclusive manner did not work.

It is not correct to do so and it is a logistical nightmare to judge the beliefs of individuals.

You can still make historical statements about what constitutes orthodox theology, though...

 

[ravendta]

I didn't read this entire thread, nor do I intend to. But I must say that this change is absolutely disgusting. It is no secret that much of the world hates Christians (or and God-based belief in general) but there is no need to give them victory by allowing them the power to force us practically into hiding. The name Christian Forums gives you an indication of what you'll find here (or USED to find here) and if you don't want to be a part of that, then you know from the start. However, I never would've joined this forum had it been just another random "social networking" site (how I despise that term) because I was looking for spiritual guidance when I joined, and eventually I ended up meeting the girl I intend to marry. Whether you know it or not, God has used this site to work wonders in the lives of the Christians here, and yo thank God's work by taking any referance to him out of the title? Why? To get more hits? To try to make more people come who would've otherwise been turned-off by the Christian name?

The whole thing reeks of shame. Shame of God, shame of the Bible, and shame of Jesus. "Oh, the name wasn't connecting with today's society." That's not what's important. As Christians, it is our job to represent God through our actions and beliefs, and instead, this forum has chosen to disown him in favor of popularity. Why? Because sites like myspace get more hits? Because secular sites don't have to face the persecution of outsiders that Christians do?

News flash: That's our job. Jesus told us we would be persecuted, and if you ask me, every believer on this forum who has come here faithfully and enjoyed the atmosphere for the past several years is being persecuted by the changes being made to please the world. Christianity isn't about the world - it's about God.

Always remember: We have free will. You push God out of your life, and he will not force his way back in.

I fear for the future of this forum and the people who decided to push God out of it.

Because of this forum, I met someone who matches my personality, dreams, goals, and ambitions 100% and I can't wait until the day I can afford to marry her.

If this new trend of pushing God out continues, then I doubt such miracles will never happen here again.

And what bothers me even more is that the initial post explaining the name change states that the board will still be driven by Christian ideals. Then why in the WORLD would you change the name? It sounds even more after that like you're ashamed of proclaiming yourself as Christian, yet think God will let that slip as long as you try to push His ideals on the site. But this is just the beginning. Like I said, you push God out, and he won't force himself back. First it's the name, then it's the rules, and pretty soon we'll all find ourselves on just another forum full of teenage punks with no respect for anyone else and no guidance to help them find a path in life. And that's a shame, because right now we've got a community of wonderful people with good hearts and great intentions. But the more this forum goes downhill and falls away from the prinicpals that built it into what it is, the more those wonderful people will seek solice elsewhere, all the while as the myspace generation filters into the forums with their immature attitudes and mindless drivel.

Lord, forgive the people who've made the decision to remove you from this site. They know not what they do.

 

[stumpjumper]

"Wholesale subjectivity" being the view that says anything is possible, the view you espouse below.

That's not what I espouse though but thank you for trying.

Your toaster is in the mail.

Following your interpretation, Jesus was inconsistent throughout his ministry. Wouldn't it have been easier to buddy up with the Pharisees than call them the "brood of vipers"? Wouldn't it have been easier to continue to let the Pharisees keep "unclean" people out of the Temple instead of denouncing them and driving out the moneychangers? There would have been no need for that messy crucifixion.

Translation: "Scholarintraining does not like Matthew 13 and has expunged that passage from his Bible."

Gotcha.

That's not minor!

I'm not saying theology or the nature of Christ is minor.

I am saying that holding incorrect theology does not make a follower of Jesus Christ a non-Christian.

Let's say it together:

"Holding incorrect theology does not make a follower of Jesus Christ a non-Christian.."

The person of Christ is central to Christianity, because depending on who he is and what he's done our concept of salvation and our view of the world changes. Indeed, because the view changes, it's not just one religion anymore, it's more like an amalgam.

So which denomination of Christianity is correct, then?

Gotta run.

 

[Time2BCounted]

I didn't read this entire thread, nor do I intend to. But I must say that this change is absolutely disgusting. It is no secret that much of the world hates Christians (or and God-based belief in general) but there is no need to give them victory by allowing them the power to force us practically into hiding. The name Christian Forums gives you an indication of what you'll find here (or USED to find here) and if you don't want to be a part of that, then you know from the start. However, I never would've joined this forum had it been just another random "social networking" site (how I despise that term) because I was looking for spiritual guidance when I joined, and eventually I ended up meeting the girl I intend to marry. Whether you know it or not, God has used this site to work wonders in the lives of the Christians here, and yo thank God's work by taking any referance to him out of the title? Why? To get more hits? To try to make more people come who would've otherwise been turned-off by the Christian name?

The whole thing reeks of shame. Shame of God, shame of the Bible, and shame of Jesus. "Oh, the name wasn't connecting with today's society." That's not what's important. As Christians, it is our job to represent God through our actions and beliefs, and instead, this forum has chosen to disown him in favor of popularity. Why? Because sites like myspace get more hits? Because secular sites don't have to face the persecution of outsiders that Christians do?

News flash: That's our job. Jesus told us we would be persecuted, and if you ask me, every believer on this forum who has come here faithfully and enjoyed the atmosphere for the past several years is being persecuted by the changes being made to please the world. Christianity isn't about the world - it's about God.

Always remember: We have free will. You push God out of your life, and he will not force his way back in.

I fear for the future of this forum and the people who decided to push God out of it.

Because of this forum, I met someone who matches my personality, dreams, goals, and ambitions 100% and I can't wait until the day I can afford to marry her.

If this new trend of pushing God out continues, then I doubt such miracles will never happen here again.

And what bothers me even more is that the initial post explaining the name change states that the board will still be driven by Christian ideals. Then why in the WORLD would you change the name? It sounds even more after that like you're ashamed of proclaiming yourself as Christian, yet think God will let that slip as long as you try to push His ideals on the site. But this is just the beginning. Like I said, you push God out, and he won't force himself back. First it's the name, then it's the rules, and pretty soon we'll all find ourselves on just another forum full of teenage punks with no respect for anyone else and no guidance to help them find a path in life. And that's a shame, because right now we've got a community of wonderful people with good hearts and great intentions. But the more this forum goes downhill and falls away from the prinicpals that built it into what it is, the more those wonderful people will seek solice elsewhere, all the while as the myspace generation filters into the forums with their immature attitudes and mindless drivel.

Lord, forgive the people who've made the decision to remove you from this site. They know not what they do.

Amen my brother, nor should we hand them the victory by letting them make us think we should shut up sit down and be doormats because of some false love teaching. Jesus turned tables in the temple.

 

[Time2BCounted]

We must accept Jesus into our heart as he is not as who we want him to be, yes.

None of that implies absolutely correct theology, though.

It implies submitting ourselves to God regardless of what our limited understanding of God actually consists of....



I really don't think universalist thinking leads people away from God.
In fact, I would say an exclusive and country club type view of Christianity does more damage in that regards...



Well. I find nothing wrong with standing up for what you believe is true.

However, from the perspective of a former staff member here, using faith icons, inquisitions into beliefs, having Christian Only sections, and defining Christianity in an exclusive manner did not work.

It is not correct to do so and it is a logistical nightmare to judge the beliefs of individuals.

You can still make historical statements about what constitutes orthodox theology, though...

Christianity IS exclusive only to the BELIEVER wouldnt you say?

How can one be saved if one doesnt believe Jesus is GOD? They have faith in what? Man?

Denying the diety of Christ certainly isnt 'christian'

I do agree there are herecies that do not endanger first hand salvation, though in a second hand way they can.

The laodicean church is condemned for its complacensy and as paul told timothy i am trying to STIR UP that which we have once received, hold to the doctrine which is able to save thee, and not thee only but them that hear thee.