former Christians who became Muslim what made you turn away from Jesus ?

[harvester77]

Think Ebia summed it up nicely.

 

[LoAmmi]

Think Ebia summed it up nicely.

I have to believe that:

1) The people who died witnessed the event of the Resurrection and

2) They were killed for their faith as in by renouncing it they would have lived.

 

[ebia]

I have to believe that:

1) The people who died witnessed the event of the Resurrection and

2) They were killed for their faith as in by renouncing it they would have lived.

Not quite. What you have to believe if christianity is false is that...

Given that people who claimed to be witnesses of the resurrection died for that claim (historically not disputed by any relevant historian that I'm aware of)...

That those people were prepared to die for a claim they knew to be false.

 

[LoAmmi]

Not quite. What you have to believe if christianity is false is that...

Given that people who claimed to be witnesses of the resurrection died for that claim (historically not disputed by any relevant historian that I'm aware of)...

That those people were prepared to die for a claim they knew to be false.

Do you have any link to these relevant historians that believe those who claimed to be witnesses of the resurrection died for their beliefs? I have never once read such a claim by someone who wasn't basically a Christian shill.

 

[ebia]

Do you have any link to these relevant historians that believe those who claimed to be witnesses of the resurrection died for their beliefs? I have never once read such a claim by someone who wasn't basically a Christian shill.

I've never come across anyone disputing it.
Among real historians, that is.

Which bit do you seriously doubt? That a number of early Christians claimed to be witnesses, or that early christianity was heavily persecuted?

 

[LoAmmi]

Which bit do you seriously doubt? That a number of early Christians claimed to be witnesses, or that early christianity was heavily persecuted?

I don't believe so many of the early Christians claimed to be witnesses. I believe most of them were converted by people like Paul.

 

[dcalling]

I don't believe so many of the early Christians claimed to be witnesses. I believe most of them were converted by people like Paul.

By the grace of God.

 

[ebia]

I don't believe so many of the early Christians claimed to be witnesses. I believe most of them were converted by people like Paul.

I didn't say most, I said many.
In 1 Cor Paul says more than 500, most of them still alive. His point being you can go and check this for yourself, so he wouldn't be saying it if they don't exist for the people of Corinth to check.

 

[LoAmmi]

I didn't say most, I said many.
In 1 Cor Paul says more than 500, most of them still alive. His point being you can go and check this for yourself, so he wouldn't be saying it if they don't exist for the people of Corinth to check.

I can do better!

Last week 1,000 people saw me lift from the ground under my own power and fly around a building in Atlanta. If you don't believe me, you can go check for yourself. There's 1,000 of them.

 

[WoodrowX2]

I've never come across anyone disputing it.
Among real historians, that is.

Which bit do you seriously doubt? That a number of early Christians claimed to be witnesses, or that early christianity was heavily persecuted?

Because no Historian of the era did not dispute a claim is not verification it is true.
The question is did any Historians of the era support the claim.

I don't believe so many of the early Christians claimed to be witnesses. I believe most of them were converted by people like Paul.

I agree

 

[ebia]

I can do better!

Last week 1,000 people saw me lift from the ground under my own power and fly around a building in Atlanta. If you don't believe me, you can go check for yourself. There's 1,000 of them.

That doesn't work, and you don't expect it to work, because I've no knowledge of those supposed witnesses or ability to ask them.

Paul clearly expects his audience (the people of Corinith around 52ad) to have knowledge of and access to these people. It makes no sense for him to write what he wrote in the context he is writing it otherwise. He isn't presenting an untestable claim - he is very much presenting it as testable claim (for the original audience) that would undermine not support his argument if untestable.

 

[ebia]

Because no Historian of the era did not dispute a claim is not verification it is true.
The question is did any Historians of the era support the claim.

We are talking about current historians who study the first century, not historians who lived in the first century.

 

[LoAmmi]

That doesn't work, and you don't expect it to work, because I've no knowledge of those supposed witnesses or ability to ask them.

Paul clearly expects his audience (the people of Corinith around 52ad) to have knowledge of and access to these people. It makes no sense for him to write what he wrote in the context he is writing it otherwise. He isn't presenting an untestable claim - he is very much presenting it as testable claim (for the original audience) that would undermine not support his argument if untestable.

You believe Paul expected people in the city to have access to people over 800 miles away whom he doesn't name or identify in any real way? Paul's claim is identical to my own. There's a Jewish proverb that if you're going to lie, claim your witnesses are far away. Paul is engaging in exactly that behavior.

 

[WoodrowX2]

That doesn't work, and you don't expect it to work, because I've no knowledge of those supposed witnesses or ability to ask them.

Paul clearly expects his audience (the people of Corinith around 52ad) to have knowledge of and access to these people. It makes no sense for him to write what he wrote in the context he is writing it otherwise. He isn't presenting an untestable claim - he is very much presenting it as testable claim (for the original audience) that would undermine not support his argument if untestable.

In other words no one at the time considered it important to name any witnesses.

 

[ebia]

You believe Paul expected people in the city to have access to people over 800 miles away whom he doesn't name or identify in any real way?

He must know that some of them are in Corinth and are known to his audience. You are confusing us not knowing with his audience not knowing.

Paul's claim is identical to my own.

Sarcastic and facile? Hardly

There's a Jewish proverb that if you're going to lie, claim your witnesses are far away. Paul is engaging in exactly that behavior.

But that's exactly how he doesn't present it.

 

[dcalling]

You believe Paul expected people in the city to have access to people over 800 miles away whom he doesn't name or identify in any real way? Paul's claim is identical to my own. There's a Jewish proverb that if you're going to lie, claim your witnesses are far away. Paul is engaging in exactly that behavior.

Except that he is willing to put his life on the line for it. Not only that, he give up his good life and became an outcast for it.

Recently one of my friend told me a story of a Chinese Pastor in the 1920-30s. He got a PH.D in chemistry, but instead of geting a stable high paid job, obey the calling of God and became a pastor. There were many opposition, from people who dislike Christianity, to his family who want him to make more money. He live a life of constant change, sometimes don't have enough money. He got a sickness like that of Paul, where he has cured many with the help of the holy spirit but God didn't put his own sickness away. People like that who preach the good word of God are truly servants of God.

 

[LoAmmi]

He must know that some of them are in Corinth and are known to his audience. You are confusing us not knowing with his audience not knowing.

And you are assuming his audience did know. I see no such indication in the text.

 

[LoAmmi]

Except that he is willing to put his life on the line for it. Not only that, he give up his good life and became an outcast for it.

any idea how many Jews have been killed for keeping Judaism? Rabbi Akiva was skinned alive by the Roman empire for continuing to teach Judaism after it was banned. I don't believe Rabbi Akiva's death shows Judaism is correct anymore than Paul's would help Christianity.

 

[WoodrowX2]

We are talking about current historians who study the first century, not historians who lived in the first century.

There is much truth in the statement "History is made by the historians of today"
To paraphrase George Orwell "He who controls the past, controls today"

 

[dcalling]

any idea how many Jews have been killed for keeping Judaism? Rabbi Akiva was skinned alive by the Roman empire for continuing to teach Judaism after it was banned. I don't believe Rabbi Akiva's death shows Judaism is correct anymore than Paul's would help Christianity.

Torah is also God's word, and people are willing to give up their lives for the word of God.