samir
Well-Known Member
My latest post is up. I do not know if it will help you see the Catholic position better or not. I have not gotten to Chalcedon yet but I will. That council alone I think shows papal authority better then any ancient council. At any rate enjoy the dialog.
In Jesus through Mary,
Athanasais
I definitely agree you have shown the bishop of Rome had a primacy and was looked upon as a leader in the church. However, I don't see any evidence of papal supremacy. I posted the same quotes you used when I discussed the papacy with an Orthodox Christian and he was able to refute all of them so I have some questions:
his ex cathedra statements of which he has done only 2 or 3 times in history arguably by catholic scholars
Are you saying the Holy Spirit gave the bishops of Rome infallibility but they didn't use it for 1,800 years? Are we supposed to believe it is a coincidence infallibility wasn't used prior to Pope Pius IX ordering and bullying the Vatican council to declare himself infallible?
“to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father" (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).
The Orthodox can say the same thing about the ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople. The EP presides over love and those honorable titles can apply to him as well.
Pope St. Clement of Rome in his epistle written to the Corthinians between 80-96 A.D
You claim St Clement didn't write his epistle until after he became Pope. Can you explain why St Clement referred to the present day sacrifices in Jerusalem which was destroyed in AD 70?
Epistle of Clement said:Not in every place, brethren, are the daily sacrifices offered, or the peace-offerings, or the sin-offerings and the trespass-offerings, but in Jerusalem only. And even there they are not offered in any place, but only at the altar before the temple, that which is offered being first carefully examined by the high priest and the ministers already mentioned. Those, therefore, who do anything beyond that which is agreeable to His will, are punished with death. You see, brethren, that the greater the knowledge that has been vouchsafed to us, the greater also is the danger to which we are exposed.
“But if any disobey the words spoken by Him [God] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and no small danger… For you will give us great joy and gladness, if you obey what we have written through the Holy Spirit and root out the unlawful anger of your jealousy, in accordance with the appeal for peace and harmony which we have made in this letter" ("Letter" 59.1; 63.2)
I and many converts to the Catholic faith that were protestant and converted(like Dr. Lawrence Feingold, and Steve Ray) read this from Pope Clement and see this as real ancient evidence for Roman Papal authority over the Church.
St Clement wrote "through us" not through himself or the bishop of Rome. How do you get papal authority from that?
Now you have to ask yourself this question. The Patriarchs of Alexandria and Jerusalem are closer to Corinth then Rome is. Yet Rome and its Bishop settles the dispute. Why?
Because Rome was the ecumenical patriarch.
So notice when Victor excommunicated the churches of Asia Minor as a group, bishops sought to change Victor’s mind,but they did not challenge his authority to have made the excommunication.
The bishops in Asia Minor certainly did not accept Victor's authority. Why don't they count?
Regarding Irenaeus, this is an argument from silence. There are many reason why Irenaeus could have chosen to rebuke the pope without challenging his authority. How would you answer the following objection I received from an Orthodox Christian when I used the same argument?
many think that the Ecumenical Patriarch is overstepping his power (concerning his claim over the "barbarian lands," and recent things he has done in Greece), and yet no one in Orthodoxy questions his authority either as the Ecumenical Patriarch.
Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolic tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere." Irenaeus,Against Heresies,3:3:2 (A.D. 180),in ANF,I:1415-416
That Roman translation is disputed. Some translators quote Irenaeus as saying because of the prominence of the Roman church due to being located in the capital city it's tradition is preserved by the faithful who go toward Rome from every side.
Very Important is what Irenaeus does right after he says this. He immediately list all the Bishops of Rome from Peter all the way to Pope Eleutherius! So to me it became crystal clear that even the east recognized a preeminent authority in the Church of Rome and the Bishops of Rome over all the other Churches.
He listed all the bishops of Rome because "it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches." As Rome's tradition is preserved by the faithful everywhere who go toward Rome who would protest if Rome changed anything it wasn't necessary to list the successors of every church.
“Please do notice that this was a big controversy among Eastern bishops, and it involved the rightful occupant of the third most important see in the Church, an Eastern see. Why did Aurelian turn to Rome for a decision?
Because Rome was the ecumenical patriarch.
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