Formal Debate Peanut Gallery Thread -- Catholic/Orthodox Dialogue -- The Office of the Papacy

samir

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My latest post is up. I do not know if it will help you see the Catholic position better or not. I have not gotten to Chalcedon yet but I will. That council alone I think shows papal authority better then any ancient council. At any rate enjoy the dialog.

In Jesus through Mary,

Athanasais

I definitely agree you have shown the bishop of Rome had a primacy and was looked upon as a leader in the church. However, I don't see any evidence of papal supremacy. I posted the same quotes you used when I discussed the papacy with an Orthodox Christian and he was able to refute all of them so I have some questions:

his ex cathedra statements of which he has done only 2 or 3 times in history arguably by catholic scholars

Are you saying the Holy Spirit gave the bishops of Rome infallibility but they didn't use it for 1,800 years? Are we supposed to believe it is a coincidence infallibility wasn't used prior to Pope Pius IX ordering and bullying the Vatican council to declare himself infallible?

“to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father" (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).

The Orthodox can say the same thing about the ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople. The EP presides over love and those honorable titles can apply to him as well.

Pope St. Clement of Rome in his epistle written to the Corthinians between 80-96 A.D

You claim St Clement didn't write his epistle until after he became Pope. Can you explain why St Clement referred to the present day sacrifices in Jerusalem which was destroyed in AD 70?

Epistle of Clement said:
Not in every place, brethren, are the daily sacrifices offered, or the peace-offerings, or the sin-offerings and the trespass-offerings, but in Jerusalem only. And even there they are not offered in any place, but only at the altar before the temple, that which is offered being first carefully examined by the high priest and the ministers already mentioned. Those, therefore, who do anything beyond that which is agreeable to His will, are punished with death. You see, brethren, that the greater the knowledge that has been vouchsafed to us, the greater also is the danger to which we are exposed.


“But if any disobey the words spoken by Him [God] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and no small danger… For you will give us great joy and gladness, if you obey what we have written through the Holy Spirit and root out the unlawful anger of your jealousy, in accordance with the appeal for peace and harmony which we have made in this letter" ("Letter" 59.1; 63.2)


I and many converts to the Catholic faith that were protestant and converted(like Dr. Lawrence Feingold, and Steve Ray) read this from Pope Clement and see this as real ancient evidence for Roman Papal authority over the Church.

St Clement wrote "through us" not through himself or the bishop of Rome. How do you get papal authority from that?


Now you have to ask yourself this question. The Patriarchs of Alexandria and Jerusalem are closer to Corinth then Rome is. Yet Rome and its Bishop settles the dispute. Why?

Because Rome was the ecumenical patriarch.


So notice when Victor excommunicated the churches of Asia Minor as a group, bishops sought to change Victor’s mind,but they did not challenge his authority to have made the excommunication.

The bishops in Asia Minor certainly did not accept Victor's authority. Why don't they count?

Regarding Irenaeus, this is an argument from silence. There are many reason why Irenaeus could have chosen to rebuke the pope without challenging his authority. How would you answer the following objection I received from an Orthodox Christian when I used the same argument?

many think that the Ecumenical Patriarch is overstepping his power (concerning his claim over the "barbarian lands," and recent things he has done in Greece), and yet no one in Orthodoxy questions his authority either as the Ecumenical Patriarch.



Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolic tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere." Irenaeus,Against Heresies,3:3:2 (A.D. 180),in ANF,I:1415-416

That Roman translation is disputed. Some translators quote Irenaeus as saying because of the prominence of the Roman church due to being located in the capital city it's tradition is preserved by the faithful who go toward Rome from every side.

Very Important is what Irenaeus does right after he says this. He immediately list all the Bishops of Rome from Peter all the way to Pope Eleutherius! So to me it became crystal clear that even the east recognized a preeminent authority in the Church of Rome and the Bishops of Rome over all the other Churches.

He listed all the bishops of Rome because "it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches." As Rome's tradition is preserved by the faithful everywhere who go toward Rome who would protest if Rome changed anything it wasn't necessary to list the successors of every church.

“Please do notice that this was a big controversy among Eastern bishops, and it involved the rightful occupant of the third most important see in the Church, an Eastern see. Why did Aurelian turn to Rome for a decision?

Because Rome was the ecumenical patriarch.
 
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Athanasias

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Hey Samir,


Thanks for the good input. I appreciate that alot! Now I have a better understanding of where your coming from. I do have some answers to your good questions but I do not know if they will satisfy you or not. Hmmm wait till after the formal dialog is over between myself and my opponent(it may be a while as good dialog always is) and if these questions have not been answered by then we can personally do a one on one dialog on this as well as long as its charitable.

I just have alot to do with teaching adult theology and working full time and doing this dialog. I want to do one dialog at a time. But I will at least tell you then(after this one is over if you want to do a one on one with me) why I (who am a revert) and many converts from protestantism and Judaism who I know that have read the fathers of the Church and studied scripture see these things the way we do.


It is also important to realize that Eastern Catholics who also know the Eastern Fathers and Councils and are in full communion with the See of Rome also see these connections too so its not just westerners. But later when we dialog in charity I will gladly share them with you if they have not already been answered by the current dialog. Whether they will convince you or not I do not know. I think you have to be at least open and the Holy Spirit does converting. But maybe they will help remove obstacles at best or at worst at least help you to understand why alot of people believe what they do historically and biblically about Peter, the Roman Church, and the Bishop of Rome.

Ps Your name is not Sam Shamoun is it?

God bless you!

In Jesus through Mary,

Athanasias
 
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samir

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Hey Samir,


Thanks for the good input. I appreciate that alot! Now I have a better understanding of where your coming from. I do have some answers to your good questions but I do not know if they will satisfy you or not. Hmmm wait till after the formal dialog is over between myself and my opponent(it may be a while as good dialog always is) and if these questions have not been answered by then we can personally do a one on one dialog on this as well as long as its charitable.

I just have alot to do with teaching adult theology and working full time and doing this dialog. I want to do one dialog at a time. But I will at least tell you then(after this one is over if you want to do a one on one with me) why I (who am a revert) and many converts from protestantism and Judaism who I know that have read the fathers of the Church and studied scripture see these things the way we do.


It is also important to realize that Eastern Catholics who also know the Eastern Fathers and Councils and are in full communion with the See of Rome also see these connections too so its not just westerners. But later when we dialog in charity I will gladly share them with you if they have not already been answered by the current dialog. Whether they will convince you or not I do not know. I think you have to be at least open and the Holy Spirit does converting. But maybe they will help remove obstacles at best or at worst at least help you to understand why alot of people believe what they do historically and biblically about Peter, the Roman Church, and the Bishop of Rome.

Ps Your name is not Sam Shamoun is it?

God bless you!

In Jesus through Mary,

Athanasias

Understood. I figured your opponent would have similar responses and thought it might help you prepare. I found those quotes convincing two months ago but after reading the Orthodox objections I'm not sure what to believe because I haven't found anything definitive against papal supremacy either. Right now I'm still open to either side so I will look forward to the rest of your discussion.

My name is not Sam Shamoun.
 
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samir

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I forgot to mention the Orthodox acknowledge the bishop of Rome had authority and not merely empty titles of honor. The difference is his authority was within his brother bishops so it could be taken away if the Pope fell into heresy (like when he taught the filioque). So to really show papal supremacy, you'd have to show the pope's decisions were binding even when the rest of the church didn't agree with him. If popes (such as Pope Victor and Pope Stephen) attempt to exercise jurisdiction and no one who disagrees with them submits to their authority then that's evidence against papal supremacy.

while we do agree Rome had a headship, it was within his brother bishops. he was not an overlord.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I forgot to mention the Orthodox acknowledge the bishop of Rome had authority and not merely empty titles of honor. The difference is his authority was within his brother bishops so it could be taken away if the Pope fell into heresy (like when he taught the filioque).

it was more than that, Vigilius was not a heretic.

So to really show papal supremacy, you'd have to show the pope's decisions were binding even when the rest of the church didn't agree with him. If popes (such as Pope Victor and Pope Stephen) attempt to exercise jurisdiction and no one who disagrees with them submits to their authority then that's evidence against papal supremacy.

but that is what happened. the Quartodecimens did not listen to Pope Victor
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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samir

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It's unfortunate these debates/dialogues never last. People accept the challenge but only post once or twice. I'm guessing they give up after they realize they're unable to defend their beliefs but they should at least let everyone know they're not continuing the debate.
 
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Athanasias

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It's unfortunate these debates/dialogues never last. People accept the challenge but only post once or twice. I'm guessing they give up after they realize they're unable to defend their beliefs but they should at least let everyone know they're not continuing the debate.
For anyone who is interested please know that I am still up for this dialog and have continued it(even when the EO sister that was dialoging with me originally gave up) over to the next thread with the Lutherans. That thread is here.
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/formal-debate-office-of-the-papacy.7942835/



I posted and am waiting for my opponent to respond before I go further. We did not specify any time length so I give him time but If I do not get a response by the middle of next month(July) I will write to him and see if he wants to continue and if not then I will move on again.

Peace be with you.

In Jesus through Mary,

Athanasais
 
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samir

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For anyone who is interested please know that I am still up for this dialog and have continued it(even when the EO sister that was dialoging with me originally gave up) over to the next thread with the Lutherans. That thread is here.
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/formal-debate-office-of-the-papacy.7942835/



I posted and am waiting for my opponent to respond before I go further. We did not specify any time length so I give him time but If I do not get a response by the middle of next month(July) I will write to him and see if he wants to continue and if not then I will move on again.

Peace be with you.

In Jesus through Mary,

Athanasais

Did you ever get a response? Are you still interested in this discussion?
 
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Athanasias

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Did you ever get a response? Are you still interested in this discussion?
Never got a response to the dialog yet. I am still open. Currently I am doing private ecumemical dialog with an LCMS Minister I befriended a few months ago. But I am still interested as there is much we can go over that I think he does not realize in regard to the councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon and early Fathers. Especially helpful is the historical evidence of Eastern Maronite Catholic clergy and there writings on the Bishop of Rome in the 6th centuries. To me that is one of the nails in the coffin of the so called claim that Eastern Christians never held to "Catholic claims" especially considering Maronites never left full communion with rome unlike most of the East. So I will write to him again. We will see. There is some fun stuff I have yet to share. If dialog continues.
 
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rakovsky

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Especially helpful is the historical evidence of Eastern Maronite Catholic clergy and there writings on the Bishop of Rome in the 6th centuries. To me that is one of the nails in the coffin of the so called claim that Eastern Christians never held to "Catholic claims" especially considering Maronites never left full communion with rome unlike most of the East.
Feel free to post here any quotes by Maronites from the 6th to 10th centuries AD saying that the Pope of Rome was basically the bishop of the bishop of Contantinople so that if the two ever had a disagreement the Patriarch of Constantinople definitely must obey Rome as his full superior.

Communion was split in about 1054 between the Patriarch of Constantinople and the Legate of Rome. Full schism took a bit longer to develop and within maybe 60 years Lebanon and the Maronites were conquered by Roman Crusaders and many Eastern Christians in that period were forced to accept the Pope as their absolute supreme ecclesiastical ruler. The Patriarch of Jerusalem was expelled by the Crusaders and replaced by a Latin one. So to claim that the Maronites never left full communion between 1054 and about 60 years later (And that might be rather hard to establish) when they were conquered is not some kind of "nail in the coffin" for Orthodox Christians' teaching that the Pope is not their de facto church emperor. It does not seem like a very strong proof.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Did you ever get a response? Are you still interested in this discussion?
The original debate was between OF and Athanasias.
OF hasn't posted for amost a month but that doesn't mean he conceded or intentionally avoided the debate.
OrthodoxForever was last seen:
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I always like debates between EOs and RCs.......
The TAW board allows non-EOs to debate them and they appear to be the only Christian Denomination on CF that allows that?

http://www.christianforums.com/forums/the-ancient-way-eastern-orthodox.145/
http://www.christianforums.com/forums/st-justin-martyrs-corner-debate-an-orthodox-chr.827/
St. Justin Martyr's Corner: Debate an Orthodox Christian


.
 
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samir

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Never got a response to the dialog yet. I am still open. Currently I am doing private ecumemical dialog with an LCMS Minister I befriended a few months ago. But I am still interested as there is much we can go over that I think he does not realize in regard to the councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon and early Fathers. Especially helpful is the historical evidence of Eastern Maronite Catholic clergy and there writings on the Bishop of Rome in the 6th centuries. To me that is one of the nails in the coffin of the so called claim that Eastern Christians never held to "Catholic claims" especially considering Maronites never left full communion with rome unlike most of the East. So I will write to him again. We will see. There is some fun stuff I have yet to share. If dialog continues.

It's been so long I'm sure they both gave up and aren't interested in continuing the dialogue. There have been people on TAW/Orthodox forum debating the papacy for months. I've dialogued with ArmyMatt about the papacy until I ran out of evidence to support it. Did you ever ask him or anyone on TAW forum? I'm willing to dialogue with you but I don't know which side is right or know enough history so I think it would be more fair to dialogue with an Orthodox Christian who can present a better case against papal supremacy.
 
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samir

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The TAW board allows non-EOs to debate them and they appear to be the only Christian Denomination on CF that allows that?

http://www.christianforums.com/forums/the-ancient-way-eastern-orthodox.145/
http://www.christianforums.com/forums/st-justin-martyrs-corner-debate-an-orthodox-chr.827/
St. Justin Martyr's Corner: Debate an Orthodox Christian

I noticed that too. It makes me have more respect for the EO that they are willing to listen and discuss evidence that goes against their beliefs because it shows they are confident the evidence is on their side. I'm always skeptical when people refuse to tolerate or discuss evidence that opposes their beliefs because it makes me think they're just relying on blind faith or whatever they were taught and don't care whether it is true.
 
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rakovsky

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I've dialogued with ArmyMatt about the papacy until I ran out of evidence to support it.
That's because you are being objective and you want evidence and arguments that most people consider strong.

The RC arguments are things like- Peter said Jesus was the Son of God/Christ, and Jesus replied You are Peter and on "this" rock (Peter's statement or Peter?) I found my church. The argument goes that this consequently makes Peter the supreme leader on earth over all Christians and not just Peter but every one of Peter's successors as a bishop, and not all Peter's successors, but only the bishops in Rome even though Peter was also the bishop of Antioch, even though Jesus never actually declared any of those implications. There are about three giant leaps of logic and one issue of uncertainty in bold above.


So you basically have to accept numerous leaps of logic and uncertainties beyond what Jesus actually said in order to see this verse "You are Peter..." as a proof for Papal Absolute Supremacy like the RCs do.

Millions of RCs are able to accept those gigantic logic jumps, but the EOs who are not in the RC Church have not.
 
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Athanasias

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Update:


Toam wants to continue dialog on this according to his pm to me.So I will allow him the next post. Remember this is a dialog and not a debate. Lets see where God will lead this.
 
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Saint Maximus the Confessor

Therefore if a man does not want to be, or to be called, a heretic, let him not strive to please this or that man ... but let him hasten before all things to be in communion with the Roman See. If he be in communion with it, he should be acknowledged by all and everywhere as faithful and orthodox. He speaks in vain who tries to persuade me of the orthodoxy of those who, like himself, refuse obedience to his Holiness the Pope of the most holy Church of Rome: that is to the Apostolic See.
 
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The original debate was between OF and Athanasias.
OF hasn't posted for amost a month but that doesn't mean he conceded or intentionally avoided the debate.
OrthodoxForever was last seen:
Jul 16, 2016


I always like debates between EOs and RCs.......
The TAW board allows non-EOs to debate them and they appear to be the only Christian Denomination on CF that allows that?

http://www.christianforums.com/forums/the-ancient-way-eastern-orthodox.145/
http://www.christianforums.com/forums/st-justin-martyrs-corner-debate-an-orthodox-chr.827/
St. Justin Martyr's Corner: Debate an Orthodox Christian

.


No, they don't, they allow debates only of those whose arguments are not founded on The Fahters of the Church and on the Sacred Scripture and History, If they see that they are losing the point they call for Eviction of Non orthodox.
 
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All4Christ

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No, they don't, they allow debates only of those whose arguments are not founded on The Fahters of the Church and on the Sacred Scripture and History, If they see that they are losing the point they call for Eviction of Non orthodox.

Respectful discussion is the requirement. Disagreement is fine, as long as people don't try to tell us what we believe. If people follow the rules of the subforum, all should work out well.

We've had good debates with Catholics there, and have several regular Catholic posters, even on the main board. Same goes for Oriental Orthodox.
 
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