Forgiving the unrepentant?

[d taylor]

Correct, it's not, Islam believes "in" Jesus but they don't believe Jesus.
what I think saving faith requires beliefwise is not believing "in" Jesus, IE believing there was a historical Jesus that existed, but rather what they believe about Him, and more importantly, that they believe Him when He says something. Islam does not believe what Jesus says about Himself in the Bible.
They do not believe He died for their sins, they don't believe He died at all in fact.

Will their sins be forgiven being that they believe they have more good works than sins and can earn their way into heaven, and believe that Jesus was just a prophet?
I say no, they won't.

Believing Jesus includes the conviction of Jesus that we are evil, we are sinners, that God has promised to provide a savior for them... and Jesus is that promised savior.

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Believing Jesus includes the conviction of Jesus that we are evil, we are sinners, that God has promised to provide a savior for them... and Jesus is that promised savior.

That above is mans idea about believing in Jesus. The Gospel of John plainly states what believing in Jesus is.

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

 

[timothyu]

So again show me from the verses you posted where the verses say a person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation by : If one does not change (repent) of the self-serving ways of man

i do not want your reading into the verses what you believe. I want actual words stating what you are saying theses verses are saying.

Jesus, by His actions, gave mankind the Kingdom, God's rule over that of mankind's. The Kingdom was/is not for all, but only the repentant who set aside our will for instead the Will of the Father. The Kingdom is HIS Will, not ours. What is it about God saying all through the Bible to put His Will ahead of the will of mankind, that humans don't get? The Lord's prayer is an excellent example of the finality of His Will over ours. An obvious reminder we better take a side now in order to gain entrance to the Kingdom.

 

[Jermayn]

We know that we are to forgive others, even if they sin against you 7 times in a day and 7 times in a day say I repent (for the same sin even) according to Luke 17:4.
This makes sense even if they keep wronging you afterward if they did recognize that they were at fault and did wrong, and apologize, okay so they fail at keeping their repentance, but if they can repent to begin with their heart is not hardened.

But what if they don't repent? What if they cannot admit fault, and harden their heart declaring that they were right to wrong you? Not even so much as a "my bad"? God does not forgive the unrepentant as far as I'm aware, is He expecting us to forgive people He doesn't forgive? Are we expected to be more forgiving than God Himself?

A tangent of this question comes also in light of people who profess faith+works salvation, that if a Christian sins they lose their salvation, etc. Jesus commands us to forgive someone of the same sin 7 times in a day (with the number 7 being representation of completeness, it's possible if not very likely Jesus expects us to forgive a repentant sinner over and over no matter how many times in a day they fail, without a limit)

The hardening of the heart to reject God's Messiah is as I've heard connected to the unforgivable sin, to blaspheme the Holy Spirit and deny His conviction

I find it incredibly easy to forgive someone who apologizes, it becomes "water under the bridge" just like that.
But I find it near impossible to forgive someone who mocks and scoffs and doubles down on offense without even admission that they've done anything wrong, often blaming you for what they did.

are we to forgive them when they don't even ask to be forgiven?

In my opinion, forgiveness doesn't mean you have to pretend whatever they've done to you never happened. You can forgive someone and still be frustrated with them.

 

[d taylor]

Jesus, by His actions, gave mankind the Kingdom, God's rule over that of mankind's. The Kingdom was/is not for all, but only the repentant who set aside our will for instead the Will of the Father. The Kingdom is HIS Will, not ours. What is it about God saying all through the Bible to put His Will ahead of the will of mankind, that humans don't get? The Lord's prayer is an excellent example of the finality of His Will over ours. An obvious reminder we better take a side now in order to gain entrance to the Kingdom.

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​

I have read your beliefs many times and have not found a single Biblical support for them. So unless you post verses that plainly state and support your beliefs i am done.

 

[timothyu]

You can forgive someone and still be frustrated with them.

Sin.. not sinner.

 

[timothyu]

i am done

No problem. Hope Jesus' Gospel of the Kingdom receives the merit it deserves someday.

 

[Clare73]

Let's start with what Jesus prayed, in Luke 23:34 >

"Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do." (in Luke 23:34)

That refers to the soldiers who crucified him. . .

 

[timothyu]

That refers to the soldiers who crucified him. . .

And mankind for rejecting the Will of God, one could say.

 

[Clare73]

And mankind for rejecting the Will of God, one could say.

Jesus did not pray for all mankind rejecting the will of God because they know not what they do.

 

[timothyu]

Jesus did not pray for all mankind rejecting the will of God because they know not what they do.

Psalm 22

 

[ViaCrucis]

But God does not forgive the unrepentant.

On the Cross all were forgiven. Not all will believe, and therefore not all will receive that forgiveness; and therefore not all will be saved. But when our Lord suffered, bled, and died it was for the whole world. No exceptions.

God declared forgiveness for all, that's what happened on Calvary. It is why St. Paul can say that all were justified by Christ's work (Romans 5:18).

In the Lutheran tradition we speak of Objective Justification and Subjective Justification. Objective Justification is what happened on the cross, it is the objective, once-and-finished, perfect work of Christ by which He died for all. No exceptions. Subjective Justification is how Christ's objective work is made mine, through faith. Through faith we receive what Christ has done, it is appropriated to us. I receive the justice--the righteousness--of Christ, as a gift, through faith. My faith is not what makes Christ's work work; Christ' just and perfect and righteous work is His, it is what He has done--for you, for me, for everyone--but I receive it as a gift, through faith, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

If a friend betrays you, you forgive them even if they are without remorse, because you love them. But without remorse, repentance, reconciliation, they will never be able to receive, appreciate, and enjoy that forgiveness. You forgive, because you love them; but they remain a prisoner of their own making by their own sin.

If I forgive my enemy, my enemy will not care as long as they are at enmity against me; but should their heart be changed, only then can they receive that forgiveness and the love with which it is given.

God forgives us, because out of the superabundance of His love and kindness He sent His only-begotten Son, who suffered and died for each and every sinner. But I cannot enjoy this love, nor experience the liberating power of this forgiveness unless I believe in it, receive it, am changed by it--and that requires the work of the Spirit to convert us, to bring faith into our hearts to turn us toward God--in grief over our sins and in faith trusting in His loving word and promises.

The work is done and accomplished. But without the Gospel being carried into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, creating and giving us faith, we are estranged from God.

God doesn't wait for us to love us, He loves us, and forgives us, that's what happened on Mt Calvary.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jamdoc]

On the Cross all were forgiven. Not all will believe, and therefore not all will receive that forgiveness; and therefore not all will be saved. But when our Lord suffered, bled, and died it was for the whole world. No exceptions.

God declared forgiveness for all, that's what happened on Calvary. It is why St. Paul can say that all were justified by Christ's work (Romans 5:18).

In the Lutheran tradition we speak of Objective Justification and Subjective Justification. Objective Justification is what happened on the cross, it is the objective, once-and-finished, perfect work of Christ by which He died for all. No exceptions. Subjective Justification is how Christ's objective work is made mine, through faith. Through faith we receive what Christ has done, it is appropriated to us. I receive the justice--the righteousness--of Christ, as a gift, through faith. My faith is not what makes Christ's work work; Christ' just and perfect and righteous work is His, it is what He has done--for you, for me, for everyone--but I receive it as a gift, through faith, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

If a friend betrays you, you forgive them even if they are without remorse, because you love them. But without remorse, repentance, reconciliation, they will never be able to receive, appreciate, and enjoy that forgiveness. You forgive, because you love them; but they remain a prisoner of their own making by their own sin.

If I forgive my enemy, my enemy will not care as long as they are at enmity against me; but should their heart be changed, only then can they receive that forgiveness and the love with which it is given.

God forgives us, because out of the superabundance of His love and kindness He sent His only-begotten Son, who suffered and died for each and every sinner. But I cannot enjoy this love, nor experience the liberating power of this forgiveness unless I believe in it, receive it, am changed by it--and that requires the work of the Spirit to convert us, to bring faith into our hearts to turn us toward God--in grief over our sins and in faith trusting in His loving word and promises.

The work is done and accomplished. But without the Gospel being carried into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, creating and giving us faith, we are estranged from God.

God doesn't wait for us to love us, He loves us, and forgives us, that's what happened on Mt Calvary.

-CryptoLutheran

You don't forgive someone and then torture them forever. You might exact justice on someone you don't forgive, but if you forgive someone you're not holding their crimes against them anymore, there's no justice that needs to be done on a forgiven crime.

Revelation 20 those not in the book of life are judged according to their works, and a list of sins people committed are held against them and they're thrown into the lake of fire for them. IF they're still counted against you on judgement day, that's not forgiveness.

 

[ViaCrucis]

You don't forgive someone and then torture them forever. You might exact justice on someone you don't forgive, but if you forgive someone you're not holding their crimes against them anymore, there's no justice that needs to be done on a forgiven crime.

Revelation 20 those not in the book of life are judged according to their works, and a list of sins people committed are held against them and they're thrown into the lake of fire for them. IF they're still counted against you on judgement day, that's not forgiveness.

You're right, if you forgive someone you don't torture them forever, or at all.

Why would you believe that God tortures anyone, ever, at all, let alone forever? That would be something a sadistic psychopath does, not God.

Scripture certainly doesn't say God tortures people forever.

But it does say there is Judgment, and those whose deeds are evil shall be cast into the lake of fire. Perhaps the clue, here, is to modify how we think about hell based on the whole counsel of Scripture.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jamdoc]

You're right, if you forgive someone you don't torture them forever, or at all.

Why would you believe that God tortures anyone, ever, at all, let alone forever? That would be something a sadistic psychopath does, not God.

Scripture certainly doesn't say God tortures people forever.

But it does say there is Judgment, and those whose deeds are evil shall be cast into the lake of fire. Perhaps the clue, here, is to modify how we think about hell based on the whole counsel of Scripture.

-CryptoLutheran

Being cast into a lake of fire where you burn forever and ever sounds a lot like torture to me. The bible may use the word "torment" but that word sounds "kinder" "gentler", making some people think it might not be as bad as it really is. A bully calling you names on the playground is tormenting, but people get through that and grow past it.
There is no growing past the lake of fire.
So I use the word torture because it hits home how bad it is more. Torment is a "weak" word in our modern understanding of the word, but torture, people grasp as being as bad as it gets, the "wailing and gnashing of teeth".
It also fits as torture is causing suffering without any real further goal.
The "torment" in the lake of fire is not designed to drive you to repentance, or make you regret what you did, or rehabilitate you, or anything like that, it's too late for that. It's suffering.. just to suffer at that point, long after a person will have regretted everything they ever did wrong, they'll still be suffering, and it never ends, no rest from it.

 

[timothyu]

Being cast into a lake of fire where you burn forever and ever sounds a lot like torture to me.

So you are saying the damned have also been granted eternal life? That the second death was a lie?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Being cast into a lake of fire where you burn forever and ever sounds a lot like torture to me. The bible may use the word "torment" but that word sounds "kinder" "gentler", making some people think it might not be as bad as it really is. A bully calling you names on the playground is tormenting, but people get through that and grow past it.
There is no growing past the lake of fire.
So I use the word torture because it hits home how bad it is more. Torment is a "weak" word in our modern understanding of the word, but torture, people grasp as being as bad as it gets, the "wailing and gnashing of teeth".
It also fits as torture is causing suffering without any real further goal.
The "torment" in the lake of fire is not designed to drive you to repentance, or make you regret what you did, or rehabilitate you, or anything like that, it's too late for that. It's suffering.. just to suffer at that point, long after a person will have regretted everything they ever did wrong, they'll still be suffering, and it never ends, no rest from it.

Who does the torturing?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jamdoc]

So you are saying the damned have also been granted eternal life? That the second death was a lie?

When it comes to the Annihilationism vs ECT debate, for me it's simple: if anything in scripture refers to torment after death as being eternal... then it's ECT.
and I find it in scripture multiple times.

Revelation 14

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

for ever and ever, eternal
no rest, conscious.
tormented with fire and brimstone... torment.

seems clear to me.

Matthew 25

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

supports it.

Look, Annihilationism seems like a more humane idea to us, it is to me as well. But I have to trust God knows best when scripture challenges my sensibilities.

I know, nobody wants to associate anything we perceive as negative to be "God's fault" It makes us think that God has done wrong things, and He hasn't. But God has agency even in evil. God is ultimately sovereign over all things, even evil things. God is Severe and to be feared. Nothing else is even worthy of fear but God. You have to get comfortable with the same God who saved us and gives us Eternal life, is going to tread the winepress of His wrath, and personally slaughter many many people, especially in Idumea/Edom. When the heavens open in Revelation 19, Jesus' garments are stained in blood already. Isaiah 63.. the prophet encounters Jesus, also in bloodstained clothes, and He describes that HE tread the winepress of His wrath and stained His raiment with their blood.

Thing is, these acts of God that seem so extreme to us, are the absolute righteous thing for Him to do, even if it seems excessive or even cruel to us, it is righteous.

 

[timothyu]

nd the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,

Of course.. angels are eternal

into everlasting punishment

Yes, no resurrection from the second death

 

[Jamdoc]

Who does the torturing?

-CryptoLutheran

God is sovereign over it. God created the Lake of Fire, God sentences people and angels to it. It is His decision and He is responsible for it. You want to dismiss God's role and sovereignty in these things to make God seem kinder and gentler, I get it.
But it's not accurate.

It seems cruel from our vantage point here, but God is right to do it.

nd the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,

Of course.. angels are eternal

into everlasting punishment

Yes, no resurrection from the second death

Nothing said about angels in those passages, but human beings who receive the mark of the beast.

Jesus said this about Judas

Matthew 26

24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

If it was just total non existence for Judas, it wouldn't matter that he'd been born, sinned, betrayed God, and just been annihilated into eternal unconsciousness. It wouldn't matter. He wouldn't be aware of anything, or be aware that he'd ever existed. Before you even think to say "well it'd be better for other people if he'd never been born" #1, it's better for us that Jesus did get betrayed because that is what allows us to be forgiven. Jesus had to die to fulfill that. #2, Jesus said it'd be better FOR HIM to have never been born.
Because non existence is preferable to existence in eternal punishment.

Before you even think "well that's just Judas, that's an exception"
Jesus said the same thing about other people.

Matthew 18

6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

Why would it be better for that man, to have been drowned than to go through with the sin? If death is just the end and unconsciousness forever is the result.. what's the difference? Drowned, or sin and die later, under annihilationism it doesn't matter to that person. They simply stop existing.

But under ECT? Now there's a scenario where it would be better to not exist than to exist and experience that punishment.

Understand that God's definition of life is different from ours. You think of ECT as them having eternal life as well. No they don't, they exist eternally in condemnation, it is considered the second death and they exist in death. It is a conscious existence, but it is not life.

In fact, Jesus doesn't even consider our day to day existence to be worthy of being considered life.

that Matthew 18..

8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

and Matthew 19

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

We exist, we don't truly live. To God we were reckoned dead in sins and trespasses already.

 

[Clare73]

God is sovereign over it. God created the Lake of Fire, God sentences people and angels to it. It is His decision and He is responsible for it. You want to dismiss God's role and sovereignty in these things to make God seem kinder and gentler, I get it.
But it's not accurate.
It seems cruel from our vantage point here, but God is right to do it.
Nothing said about angels in those passages, but human beings who receive the mark of the beast.
Jesus said this about Judas

Matthew 26


If it was just total non existence for Judas, it wouldn't matter that he'd been born, sinned, betrayed God, and just been annihilated into eternal unconsciousness. It wouldn't matter. He wouldn't be aware of anything, or be aware that he'd ever existed. Before you even think to say "well it'd be better for other people if he'd never been born" #1, it's better for us that Jesus did get betrayed because that is what allows us to be forgiven. Jesus had to die to fulfill that. #2, Jesus said it'd be better FOR HIM to have never been born.
Because non existence is preferable to existence in eternal punishment.

Before you even think "well that's just Judas, that's an exception"
Jesus said the same thing about other people.

Matthew 18

Why would it be better for that man, to have been drowned than to go through with the sin? If death is just the end and unconsciousness forever is the result.. what's the difference? Drowned, or sin and die later, under annihilationism it doesn't matter to that person. They simply stop existing.

But under ECT? Now there's a scenario where it would be better to not exist than to exist and experience that punishment.

Understand that God's definition of life is different from ours. You think of ECT as them having eternal life as well. No they don't, they exist eternally in condemnation, it is considered the second death and they exist in death. It is a conscious existence, but it is not life.
In fact, Jesus doesn't even consider our day to day existence to be worthy of being considered life.
that Matthew 18..
and Matthew 19
We exist, we don't truly live. To God we were reckoned dead in sins and trespasses already.

There are two kinds of life: temporal (physical) and eternal (spiritual).

They do not have eternal life.