Forgiving the unrepentant?

[d taylor]

But God does not forgive the unrepentant. If they come before God having sinned and act self righteous, that's the kinds of people Jesus railed against and called vipers and said their father was the Devil.

In Luke 18 Jesus gave the parable of the Pharisee and the publican. The publican was more justified because he knew he was a sinner and asked for mercy. So that's at least the starting point for forgiveness and salvation, to at first know you're a sinner in the first place right?
But the Pharisee, believing himself right in his own eyes.. there won't be mercy.

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​

I am not really sure how you are using forgiveness of sin.

But regardless of this. All sin (believers and unbelievers) has been forgiven and has been paid for when Jesus died on the cross.

So in regard to a person receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation, sin and the forgiveness of sin is not a condition or issue a person must deal with. In other words a person does not have to feel sorry for their sins or repent of sin, to be able to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. The only condition God has given to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life is to believe in Jesus.

What is believing in Jesus, it is to believe Jesus is who He says He is. The Son of God/The promised Messiah, the resurrection and the life.

With that said
Now forgiveness from God for a believer, is in fellowship position. So for the born again believer, if a person wrongs them, but yet they will not forgive the person. Then the born again child of God falls out of fellowship with God their Father and will stay out of fellowship unless they end up forgiving people who wrong them.

Forgiving people has nothing to do with a persons Eternal Life salvation. But it does have to do with how they have a relationship with God.

 

[com7fy8]

I guess where I struggle the most in it is if there are unrepentant people who God won't forgive, I'm supposed to forgive them even if God won't?

Jesus on the cross prayed forgiveness to people who would never be forgiven. In His heart, then, He was desiring forgiveness for them. And if you desire something in your heart, you have already done it . . . right?

 

[Jerry N.]

I would like to add another dimension to this discussion. It may be a little off topic, but I think it is related. Maybe I misunderstand forgiveness. I tend to forgive but not forget. After somebody has done me wrong, I readily forgive them but do all that I can to avoid it happening again. There was a neighbor who often borrowed tools and always brought them back broken without compensation. Finally, I stopped lending to him.

 

[Jamdoc]

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​

I am not really sure how you are using forgiveness of sin.

But regardless of this. All sin (believers and unbelievers) has been forgiven and has been paid for when Jesus died on the cross.

So in regard to a person receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation, sin and the forgiveness of sin is not a condition or issue a person must deal with. In other words a person does not have to feel sorry for their sins or repent of sin, to be able to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. The only condition God has given to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life is to believe in Jesus.

What is believing in Jesus, it is to believe Jesus is who He says He is. The Son of God/The promised Messiah, the resurrection and the life.

With that said
Now forgiveness from God for a believer, is in fellowship position. So for the born again believer, if a person wrongs them, but yet they will not forgive the person. Then the born again child of God falls out of fellowship with God their Father and will stay out of fellowship unless they end up forgiving people who wrong them.

Forgiving people has nothing to do with a persons Eternal Life salvation. But it does have to do with how they have a relationship with God.

Yeah I do not believe in universalism. Jesus said there was no condemnation for those who believe on Him. He said there was condemnation for those who don't believe.

But the starting point for believing Jesus is your savior... is knowing you are a sinner who needs a savior in the first place.

 

[Veni]

Mark 2:6-7
Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

the Pharisees and Sadducees believe, God alone can forgive sin.

Matthew 16:6
“Be careful,” Jesus said to them. “Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”

 

[d taylor]

Yeah I do not believe in universalism. Jesus said there was no condemnation for those who believe on Him. He said there was condemnation for those who don't believe.

But the starting point for believing Jesus is your savior... is knowing you are a sinner who needs a savior in the first place.

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​

Not sure the reason to bring universalism into the discussion, as i never mention universalism beliefs.

​

Where is that (knowing you are a sinner) seen in The Bible when people are being evangelized to believe in Jesus for Eternal Life.

Take the women at the well or Nicodemus or in this section of verses from The Gospel of John.

Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

You would think Jesus would have said first know you are a sinner,

Or Philip and the eunuch

 

[timothyu]

forgive is not only for those who wrong against us. we forgive all those who are under God's wrath.

Exactly, for we are ALL sinners and capable of similar deeds

 

[timothyu]

So in regard to a person receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation, sin and the forgiveness of sin is not a condition or issue a person must deal with. In other words a person does not have to feel sorry for their sins or repent of sin, to be able to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life.

So much for repentance of our self-serving ways

 

[com7fy8]

God would put someone to eternal torture for 1 unforgiven sin against Him (disregarding that we all have way more than 1 sin that needs to be forgiven)

Well, Jesus has sacrificed Himself in order to get any and all sins forgiven >

"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (1 John 2:2)

Our Heavenly Father has invested His very own Son in getting us forgiven. And Jesus is so pleasing that He can satisfy God to forgive all sins ever committed by us and "the whole world".

So - - - if God is so interested in forgiving, do you really think He is going to let some one sin have power to get Him to put someone in hell?

What *would* be a problem would be what caused that sin.

And > has the person been forgiving????

If God our Heavenly Father has given His own Son Jesus on the cross so people will be forgiven . . . but you decide forgiving is not worthwhile for you - -

Now we have a problem.

May be we are the ones stingy about forgiving; and so we can make God to be like us. We need to join Jesus, trust in Jesus by following His example >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

Not only is Jesus so ready with generous forgiveness, but Jesus is loving us while forgiving, plus sweetly pleasing to our Father about it.

God is the One who knows how He judges. And we can get tricked into overkill by having the idea that God can't be just unless He sends you to hell for one sin. But what we really need to deal with is not only keeping our confessing up to date, but > >

Is our

*f~o~r~g~i~v~i~n~g*

up to date??

And God already has such forgiveness for any and all people, but this forgiveness is not only a legalistic thing; but God's forgiveness lives in Jesus in His love so pleasant and soul soothing. So, when we do not forgive pleasantly and kindly and generously like Jesus, we are not living in this forgiveness for our own selves . . . while we are not living in this for any others.

So, let us trust Jesus to make us His way, so we are following His example. And do not be making up ideas that God is the One who is limited for justice and forgiveness. Get into real forgiving, yourself, however you need to. Trust God to truly correct us so we are living in His love in such tender and compassionate sharing with Him.

Unforgiveness can have a person living in Satan's kingdom, making the person a magnet for things coming against the person so the person has things to be unforgiving about, and so hurts can go on and on.

But Jesus in His resurrection still had His wounds but those wounds had no effect to keep Jesus suffering. And so it is with us in the almighty safety of Jesus Christ's generously forgiving love.

 

[d taylor]

So much for repentance of our self-serving ways

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​

Which verse or better yet verses, say to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life a person must repent of their self serving ways.

 

[timothyu]

Which verse or better yet verses, say to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life a person must repent of their self serving ways.

Any from Jesus. It is not a suggestion but a COMMAND. .eg. If one does not change (repent) of the self-serving ways of man there will be no place for these Lord Lords in the Kingdom.

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Luke 24: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Mark 1: 14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Matthew 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up. 17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Acts 26:20 "that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance."

Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

etc.

 

[d taylor]

Any from Jesus. It is not a suggestion but a COMMAND. .eg. If one does not change (repent) of the self-serving ways of man there will be no place for these Lord Lords in the Kingdom.

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Luke 24: 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Mark 1: 14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Matthew 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up. 17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Acts 26:20 "that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance."

Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

etc.

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​

So maybe i am missing something with these verses you posted, but i do not see any mention of receiving Eternal Life in any of the verses you posted.

Let me give an example of a verse addressing receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

[Jamdoc]

-
​

Not sure the reason to bring universalism into the discussion, as i never mention universalism beliefs.

​

Where is that (knowing you are a sinner) seen in The Bible when people are being evangelized to believe in Jesus for Eternal Life.

Take the women at the well or Nicodemus or in this section of verses from The Gospel of John.

Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

You would think Jesus would have said first know you are a sinner,

Or Philip and the eunuch

They'd have to know they are a sinner, in order to know they need a savior.

Take Islam as an example, they believe in Jesus but do not have a saving faith in Him, because to them, no one can atone for another's sins, so they do not see Jesus as their savior, or as God, or the Son of God.
They only see Him as a man, a prophet.
Their beliefs effectively block them from salvation unless they turn from those beliefs (repent) and turn to Jesus. as Lord and Savior.

 

[Jamdoc]

Well, Jesus has sacrificed Himself in order to get any and all sins forgiven >

"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." (1 John 2:2)

Our Heavenly Father has invested His very own Son in getting us forgiven. And Jesus is so pleasing that He can satisfy God to forgive all sins ever committed by us and "the whole world".

So - - - if God is so interested in forgiving, do you really think He is going to let some one sin have power to get Him to put someone in hell?

What *would* be a problem would be what caused that sin.

And > has the person been forgiving????

If God our Heavenly Father has given His own Son Jesus on the cross so people will be forgiven . . . but you decide forgiving is not worthwhile for you - -

Now we have a problem.

May be we are the ones stingy about forgiving; and so we can make God to be like us. We need to join Jesus, trust in Jesus by following His example >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

Not only is Jesus so ready with generous forgiveness, but Jesus is loving us while forgiving, plus sweetly pleasing to our Father about it.

God is the One who knows how He judges. And we can get tricked into overkill by having the idea that God can't be just unless He sends you to hell for one sin. But what we really need to deal with is not only keeping our confessing up to date, but > >

Is our

*f~o~r~g~i~v~i~n~g*

up to date??

And God already has such forgiveness for any and all people, but this forgiveness is not only a legalistic thing; but God's forgiveness lives in Jesus in His love so pleasant and soul soothing. So, when we do not forgive pleasantly and kindly and generously like Jesus, we are not living in this forgiveness for our own selves . . . while we are not living in this for any others.

So, let us trust Jesus to make us His way, so we are following His example. And do not be making up ideas that God is the One who is limited for justice and forgiveness. Get into real forgiving, yourself, however you need to. Trust God to truly correct us so we are living in His love in such tender and compassionate sharing with Him.

Unforgiveness can have a person living in Satan's kingdom, making the person a magnet for things coming against the person so the person has things to be unforgiving about, and so hurts can go on and on.

But Jesus in His resurrection still had His wounds but those wounds had no effect to keep Jesus suffering. And so it is with us in the almighty safety of Jesus Christ's generously forgiving love.

all that, but at the end, there's going to be a lot of people going to the Lake of Fire.
Why?
Because they don't have a savior, their sins were not forgiven

 

[d taylor]

They'd have to know they are a sinner, in order to know they need a savior.

Take Islam as an example, they believe in Jesus but do not have a saving faith in Him, because to them, no one can atone for another's sins, so they do not see Jesus as their savior, or as God, or the Son of God.
They only see Him as a man, a prophet.
Their beliefs effectively block them from salvation unless they turn from those beliefs (repent) and turn to Jesus. as Lord and Savior.

-
​

Do you understand what belief in Jesus means. I ask this because you said Islam believes in Jesus.

But if you understand what The Bible means when The Bible states believe in Jesus for eternal life.
You would know that the belief that Islam has, is not the belief that gives eternal life.

 

[com7fy8]

all that, but at the end, there's going to be a lot of people going to the Lake of Fire.
Why?
Because they don't have a savior, their sins were not forgiven

They do not only need to become forgiven.

They need to trust in Jesus.

They need to be turned

"from the power of Satan to God" > in Acts 26:18.

They need to be reconciled with God. Reconciliation is more than being forgiven.

Yes, Jesus forgave those evil people, and yes we forgive people.

But if they do not become reconciled as well as forgiven, they miss out on the good they can have with God and us who are sharing and caring as God's fsmily.

There were two criminals hanging next to Jesus, right?

Luke 23:33-43 > > > here we can read > > >

Yes, Jesus prayed forgiveness to the ones hating and torturing and murdering Jesus.

And one criminal was speaking against Jesus; but then the other stood up for Christ. He reconciled with Jesus . . . at the cross. So, he got the benefit, I would say, from Jesus praying forgiveness to them all. Ones might have gotten forgiven; forgiveness was sent out; but they did not receive it.

But that criminal did receive it and benefit from it by seeing who Jesus is and honoring Jesus and standing up for Jesus and trusting Jesus to remember him when Jesus comes in His kingdom.

So, in forgiving others . . . I would say we need to mean for God to change them to be reconciled with Him, and trust God to have us ready for love with the person.

But evaluate. Do not blindly trust someone we have forgiven. But submit to God so He is guiding us about if and how He knows it is good to trust each person.

 

[d taylor]

all that, but at the end, there's going to be a lot of people going to the Lake of Fire.
Why?
Because they don't have a savior, their sins were not forgiven

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​

People do not go to the lake of fire because their sins were not forgiven, all sin has been paid for by Jesus.

People go to the lake of fire for one reason only, their names are not in the book of life.

 

[Jamdoc]

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​

Do you understand what belief in Jesus means. I ask this because you said Islam believes in Jesus.

But if you understand what The Bible means when The Bible states believe in Jesus for eternal life.
You would know that the belief that Islam has, is not the belief that gives eternal life.

Correct, it's not, Islam believes "in" Jesus but they don't believe Jesus.
what I think saving faith requires beliefwise is not believing "in" Jesus, IE believing there was a historical Jesus that existed, but rather what they believe about Him, and more importantly, that they believe Him when He says something. Islam does not believe what Jesus says about Himself in the Bible.
They do not believe He died for their sins, they don't believe He died at all in fact.

Will their sins be forgiven being that they believe they have more good works than sins and can earn their way into heaven, and believe that Jesus was just a prophet?
I say no, they won't.

Believing Jesus includes the conviction of Jesus that we are evil, we are sinners, that God has promised to provide a savior for them... and Jesus is that promised savior.

 

[timothyu]

So maybe i am missing something with these verses you posted, but i do not see any mention of receiving Eternal Life in any of the verses you posted.

You are. Eternal life comes from putting the will of God ahead of our own. The concept behind repentance/change.

Let me give an example of a verse addressing receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

And that Son achieved God's Will by doing only the Will of the Father, not His own. He taught it (the Gospel of the Kingdom) and set the example. His fruits showed the results of following God's Will, not mankind's. Meanwhile the world continues to built Christianity in our own image. It even rejected the Kingdom at one time in order to re-align itself with the empires of man. Fortunately, scripture could not be kept hidden forever. God's Truth is what Jesus' church was built upon, not the religion(s) of man. Man continually fails to grasp this, putting our will first, what is more convenient for us in order to try and have it both ways.

 

[d taylor]

You are. Eternal life comes from putting the will of God ahead of our own. The concept behind repentance/change.


And that Son achieved God's Will by doing only the Will of the Father, not His own. He taught it (the Gospel of the Kingdom) and set the example. His fruits showed the results of following God's Will, not mankind's. Meanwhile the world continues to built Christianity in our own image. It even rejected the Kingdom at one time in order to re-align itself with the empires of man. Fortunately, scripture could not be kept hidden forever. God's Truth is what Jesus' church was built upon, not the religion(s) of man. Man continually fails to grasp this, putting our will first, what is more convenient for us in order to try and have it both ways.

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​

So again show me from the verses you posted where the verses say a person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation by : If one does not change (repent) of the self-serving ways of man

i do not want your reading into the verses what you believe. I want actual words stating what you are saying theses verses are saying.