For those who argue for the omnibenevolence of God…

[Hawkins]

No. God Loves everyone (this Love is defined by 1 Cor. 13, 1 John 4, everything Christ did and said). We are to "Love" those that hate us and want to kill us (like those first century Christians were to Love Paul when he was Saul killing Christians.

The issue is not with God having some limit to His Love, but with humans humbly accepting that Love as pure undeserved charity in the form of forgiveness. Humans cannot obtain an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love) unless they humbly accept God's forgiveness (Luke 7 and Matt. 18). If they do not want God's Love, they would not be happy in heaven where this agape is the only Love."

People "doom" themselves by not humbly accepting God's Love for them.

No, God dosen't cast Satan, God's very creature, into the Lake of Fire as an expression of love.

 

[Hammster]

God provides His reason!

Deuteronomy 20:16-18 KJV,
16 “But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:”

17 “But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee:”

18 “That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the Lord your God.”

Hmmmm. It kinda looks like they were evil.

 

[Hammster]

WOW!!! Not at all! I have repeatedly said: "God Loves Everyone!". Quoting from my post of 371:"but (the problem is) with humans humbly accepting that Love as pure undeserved charity in the form of forgiveness. Humans cannot obtain an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love) unless they humbly accept God's forgiveness (Luke 7 and Matt. 18). If they do not want God's Love, they would not be happy in heaven where this agape is the only Love."
People "doom" themselves by not humbly accepting God's Love for them.

I know you say it. But your view is inconsistent because in reality, your view is that He only really loves those who love Him back. They rest end up in hell.

 

[biblelesson]

I know you say it. But your view is inconsistent because in reality, your view is that He only really loves those who love Him back. They rest end up in hell.

I want to reply to you on this because, one thing I think you are not looking at are God’s laws. Laws have consequences- good or bad. God will not break His laws for us because we suffer the pain of it.

God loves all - it has nothing to do with God loving those that love Him back. He asked Cain, if he does well, wouldn’t he be accepted, Genesis 4:7 KJV, “If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.”

Laws are in place that demand either punishment or praise. God operates by righteous laws, or else He would not have been able to create earth, man, stars, the universe, etc.

This is why we have laws and government on earth - patterned after heaven. This is why parents punish their children for bad behavior - patterned after heaven.

It’s just that with man, who God gave dominion over the earth, God has made decisions to stop man’s destruction of the human race: sometimes due to man’s terrible sin that come with severe consequences, God will stop them through taking their life.

I would like for you to watch this YouTube movie: called: “God of Wonders” Watch that movie; you will see so much about God’s majesty, His laws, beauty, love and wisdom.

God bless!

 

[John Mullally]

The cause of their disbelief was not being His sheep.

If that is the case it makes no sense for Jesus to give those he denounces as "not my sheep" (John 10:24-28) any reasons to believe in him as he did in John 10:37-38. That would be casting pearls before swine.

He didn’t.

He most certainly did. In John 10:37-38, Jesus pointed to his miracles as reasons for his opponents he labeled "not his sheep" to "understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father". If being "not his sheep" makes one reprobate (which is the Calvinist understanding), then why is Jesus trying to convince them of that fact? Once they "understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father", they would have to believe him.

John 10:37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”​

 

[Hammster]

I want to reply to you on this because, one thing I think you are not looking at are God’s laws. Laws have consequences- good or bad. God will not break His laws for us because we suffer the pain of it.

God loves all - it has nothing to do with God loving those that love Him back. He asked Cain, if he does well, wouldn’t he be accepted, Genesis 4:7 KJV, “If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.”

Laws are in place that demand either punishment or praise. God operates by righteous laws, or else He would not have been able to create earth, man, stars, the universe, etc.

This is why we have laws and government on earth - patterned after heaven. This is why parents punish their children for bad behavior - patterned after heaven.

It’s just that with man, who God gave dominion over the earth, God has made decisions to stop man’s destruction of the human race: sometimes due to man’s terrible sin that come with severe consequences, God will stop them through taking their life.

I would like for you to watch this YouTube movie: called: “God of Wonders” Watch that movie; you will see so much about God’s majesty, His laws, beauty, love and wisdom.

God bless!

I know there are consequences. That’s not the issue. For instance, I have laws at my house. There are consequences for not obeying. But I would never sentence my child to death for not obeying. Why? Because my love transcends their obedience. Their ultimate disposition is not dependent on their behavior. The only thing affected is the fellowship.

Based on your understanding of God, I’m a much better parent than He is.

 

[Hammster]

He most certainly did. In John 10:37-38, Jesus pointed to his miracles as reasons for his opponents he labeled "not his sheep" to "understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father". If being "not his sheep" makes one reprobate (which is the Calvinist understanding), then why is Jesus trying to convince them of that fact? Once they "understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father", they would have to believe him.

John 10:37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”​

And I addressed this already.

Believing in works isn’t what saves anyone.

 

[John Mullally]

And I addressed this already.

You did not address John 10:37-38 (see below). Believing that Jesus's works are from God was only a small part of what Jesus said in John 10:37-38 and there was no mention of salvation in that passage nor in my argument. It is a bad idea to dismiss the words of Jesus flippantly.

Believing in works isn’t what saves anyone.

 

[Hammster]

You did not address John 10:37-38 (see below). Believing that Jesus's works are from God was only a small part of what Jesus said in John 10:37-38 and there was no mention of salvation in that passage nor in my argument. It is a bad idea to dismiss the words of Jesus flippantly.

If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”
— John 10:37-38

Where does He say believing in His works makes them sheep? He doesn’t. What does He say a sheep does? Hears and follows.

 

[John Mullally]

If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”
— John 10:37-38

Where does He say believing in His works makes them sheep? He doesn’t. What does He say a sheep does? Hears and follows.

Believing Jesus works were from the Father is necessary for a follower. I agree that his sheep hears and follow him based upon John 10:24-28.

Our disagreement is over what Jesus means by sheep. I say that his sheep refers to his followers, whereas you say that people are either born as "his sheep" or "not his sheep" - where only his sheep will be saved and are "elected from before the foundation of the world.”. What Jesus said in John 10:37-38 shows that Jesus did not consider the "not his sheep" as reprobate as you assert.

I reintroduce my argument in Post 385.

In John 10:37-38, Jesus pointed to his miracles as reasons for his opponents he labeled "not his sheep" to "understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father". If being "not his sheep" makes one reprobate (which is the Calvinist understanding), then why is Jesus trying to convince them of that fact? Once they "understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father", they would have to believe him.

John 10:37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”​

The lesson he shared with "not his sheep" in John 10:37-38 was repeated almost verbatim to the twelve later in John 14:11.

 

[Hammster]

Believing Jesus works were from the Father is necessary for a follower. I agree that his sheep hears and follow him based upon John 10:24-28.

Our disagreement is over what Jesus means by sheep. I say that his sheep refers to his followers, whereas you say that people are either born as "his sheep" or "not his sheep" - where only his sheep will be saved and are "elected from before the foundation of the world.”. What Jesus said in John 10:37-38 shows that Jesus did not consider the "not his sheep" as reprobate as you assert.

I reintroduce my argument in Post 385.

The lesson he shared with "not his sheep" in John 10:37-38 was repeated almost verbatim to the twelve later in John 14:11.

Actually, that was to the 11 who were His sheep, but who were having doubts. The goat had already left.

 

[Hammster]

Our disagreement is over what Jesus means by sheep.

Do you believe goats can become sheep?

 

[John Mullally]

Believing Jesus works were from the Father is necessary for a follower. I agree that his sheep hears and follow him based upon John 10:24-28.

Our disagreement is over what Jesus means by sheep. I say that his sheep refers to his followers, whereas you say that people are either born as "his sheep" or "not his sheep" - where only his sheep will be saved and are "elected from before the foundation of the world.”. What Jesus said in John 10:37-38 shows that Jesus did not consider the "not his sheep" as reprobate as you assert.

I reintroduce my argument in Post 385.

The lesson he shared with "not his sheep" in John 10:37-38 was repeated almost verbatim to the twelve later in John 14:11.

Actually, that was to the 11 who were His sheep, but who were having doubts. The goat had already left.

My guess (and I have to do a lot of that when responding to your curt posts) is you are responding only to the last sentence of my post - if that is the case it would be helpful to strictly quote that portion you are responding to.

My main point is John 10:37-38 which was addressed to the religious leaders that Jesus termed "not my sheep" (John 10:26). I mentioned John 14:11 in order to show that this topic was difficult to his closest disciples. So why would Jesus be sharing teaching with reprobates that even his closest disciples had difficulty with? Much less why would Jesus waste his time teaching reprobates? Jesus taught not to cast pearls before swine.

Judas was present with the other 11 disciples when Jesus spoke John 14:11. Based upon your response and your understanding of "my sheep", it seems that you are saying that none of the spiritual truths Jesus spoke in public or private could be understood by those who would not be saved and thus when Jesus speaks spiritual truth he for all practical purposes is only addressing "his sheep". Thus as you said in your response what Jesus said in John 14:11 was intended only for the eleven. if that is the case, then John 10:37-38 makes absolutely no sense. What Jesus spoke in John 10:37-38 does make sense if "my sheep" refers to "my followers" - as in that case Jesus was pointing to his miracles in an effort to trying to convince "not my followers" to become "his followers".

 

[biblelesson]

I know there are consequences. That’s not the issue. For instance, I have laws at my house. There are consequences for not obeying. But I would never sentence my child to death for not obeying. Why? Because my love transcends their obedience. Their ultimate disposition is not dependent on their behavior. The only thing affected is the fellowship.

Based on your understanding of God, I’m a much better parent than He is.

Did you watch the video “God of Wonders?”

You should watch it to help you understand God’s Majesty and Magnificence; His all loving nature and His Rightious Justice.

Because you don’t see yourself as a created being. You think God is a man like you! And you are judging All Mighty God instead of trying to understand His Word and Who He say He is!

We should all be warned. The angels are recording all we say against God and Christ in a Book. What we say we will have to give an account of it.

If we have no power to save ourselves, then we should be careful, and submit to the One who can save and destroy.

Hebrews 12:25 KJV, “See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:”

Hebrews 12:28-29 KJV,
28 “Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:” 29 “For our God is a consuming fire.”

God is Creator, and all we know about Him is what He tells us. If Gods says He is all loving, then He is all loving. If God says He is all merciful, then He is all merciful.

Ask for your eyes to be opened - ask God to give you spiritual eyes that you might see Him.

Don’t neglect to ask for forgiveness for misunderstanding God and speaking ill against Him and Christ, for Christ is that spiritual rock that followed Israel, to include being with them during their battles, 1 Corinthians 10:4 KJV.

Remember, the angles who are recording your every word, are not as forgiving as Gods is, Exodus 23:20-21 KJV, “Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.” 21 “Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.”

God bless!

 

[Hammster]

My guess (and I have to do a lot of that when responding to your curt posts) is you are responding only to the last sentence of my post - if that is the case it would be helpful to strictly quote that portion you are responding to.

My main point is John 10:37-38 which was addressed to the religious leaders that Jesus termed "not my sheep" (John 10:26). I mentioned John 14:11 in order to show that this topic was difficult to his closest disciples. So why would Jesus be sharing teaching with reprobates that even his closest disciples had difficulty with? Much less why would Jesus waste his time teaching reprobates? Jesus taught not to cast pearls before swine.

Judas was present with the other 11 disciples when Jesus spoke John 14:11. Based upon your response and your understanding of "my sheep", it seems that you are saying that none of the spiritual truths Jesus spoke in public or private could be understood by those who would not be saved and thus when Jesus speaks spiritual truth he for all practical purposes is only addressing "his sheep". Thus as you said in your response what Jesus said in John 14:11 was intended only for the eleven. if that is the case, then John 10:37-38 makes absolutely no sense. What Jesus spoke in John 10:37-38 does make sense if "my sheep" refers to "my followers" - as in that case Jesus was pointing to his miracles in an effort to trying to convince "not my followers" to become "his followers".

What I’m saying is that your point about John 14 is moot because Jesus was not speaking to the twelve. So I explained that He was speaking to the 11 because they were having doubts. That’s different than the crowd in chapter 10.

 

[Hammster]

Because you don’t see yourself as a created being.

lol. We are done here.

 

[bling]

No, God dosen't cast Satan, God's very creature, into the Lake of Fire as an expression of love.

If God does not cast satan into the lake of fire than God is a liar and He is not fair/just and trustworthy.
If God said: "Satan goes to heaven in the end", would that help me to turn from my wickedness and humbly accept God's undeserving charity as charity (if Satan did not have to be humble, why should I)?
Satan sent himself to the lake of fire (he knew better), just like some humans will send themselves to the lake of fire.
Mature adult humans have been provided with a wonderful strong motivator to act sooner than later, with death, judgment and hell.
God is not taking "pleasure" in sending satan to the lake of fire, but there is nothing more God can do for a free will satan, who chose to reject God's Love/help/charity/grace/mercy. Satan has shown he does not want, like or accept Godly type Love and that is the only type of Love handed out in heaven so satan would not be happy in heaven, so where can he get away from this Love?
If the prodigal son did not return home, would that mean his father did not Love him?

 

[bling]

I know you say it. But your view is inconsistent because in reality, your view is that He only really loves those who love Him back. They rest end up in hell.

You’re putting up a strawman, I do not agree with that at all.

People do not go to hell because God does not Love them!!!

Just like the King in Matt. 18, God actually does his Loving part perfectly and forgives everyone, but just like the servant in Matt. 18, people do not humble themselves to the point of accepting God’s forgiveness as pure undeserved charity, so the transaction of forgiveness is not completed (forgiveness just does not happen.) The king, out of great Love, unconditionally forgave the servant, but the servant refused to accept such forgiveness as pure charity, so the servant has no huge Love (Luke 7) and goes to jail (Hell).

That is the way it works in the Kingdom.

People go to hell because they do not like or want Godly type Love, they want to be loved for the way they want others to perceive them to be (which that kind of love is not in heaven) and not Loved in spite of the way they really are.

God does not want unhappy beings in heaven, He cannot make happy of their own free will.

 

[Hammster]

You’re putting up a strawman, I do not agree with that at all.

People do not go to hell because God does not Love them!!!

Just like the King in Matt. 18, God actually does his Loving part perfectly and forgives everyone, but just like the servant in Matt. 18, people do not humble themselves to the point of accepting God’s forgiveness as pure undeserved charity, so the transaction of forgiveness is not completed (forgiveness just does not happen.) The king, out of great Love, unconditionally forgave the servant, but the servant refused to accept such forgiveness as pure charity, so the servant has no huge Love (Luke 7) and goes to jail (Hell).

That is the way it works in the Kingdom.

People go to hell because they do not like or want Godly type Love, they want to be loved for the way they want others to perceive them to be (which that kind of love is not in heaven) and not Loved in spite of the way they really are.

God does not want unhappy beings in heaven, He cannot make happy of their own free will.

He could do two things. One, He could take their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh, and they would love Him freely.

Or, do something with them that isn’t hell. The lake of fire doesn’t sound like a place you send someone that you love.

 

[FireDragon76]

He could do two things. One, He could take their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh, and they would love Him freely.

The issue is how God would do this. Are human beings merely puppets in your theology, with no agency of their own?

Nobody seriously think God couldn't do whatever is logically possible, but love would seem to require agency. A puppet is not an agent.