For those who argue for the omnibenevolence of God…

[Hammster]

Not sure what you are saying here. Do you feel God does not moment by moment provide life to every individual?

You’ll need to reword this.

Can God continue to provide life to anyone under any situation?

Sure. He’s providential.

Do you feel God saved only Israelites prior to Christ coming?

No. There were many saved before Jacob.

Do you feel, just because we do not know much about God's interaction with Gentiles, they were all lost?

Yes, because you cannot be saved apart from the gospel.

 

[John Mullally]

So if He is severe, He’s not omnibenevolent.

God can be both severe and omnibenevolent. God's omnibenevolence is observed in His provision that I described in Post 254. He is severe to those who reject Christ's atonement - but that is their choice.

God takes no glory in anyone going to Hell. In fact, it makes God sad (Ezekiel 18:32; 33:11). It’s not God’s will (1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9), but at the same time, He chooses not to force His love on anyone. He lets people perish, just as reluctantly as the father of the prodigal son reluctantly allowed his son to leave. That’s a very different version of Christianity than Calvinism, in which Calvin depicts God as creating people to go Hell for His glory.

 

[Minister Monardo]

So the Lord said to me, “Do not pray for the welfare of this people. When they fast, I am not going to listen to their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and grain offering, I am not going to accept them. Rather I am going to make an end of them by the sword, famine and pestilence.”
— Jeremiah 14:11-12

God commanded Jeremiah to not pray for the people. That violates what I’ve seen some argue as God being all-loving.

The Lord tests the resolve of His servants, and their commitment to the Congregation.

Numbers 16:
20 And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying,
21 Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.

And how does Moses react?

22 Then they fell on their faces, and said, “O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh,
shall one man sin, and You be angry with all the congregation?”

I find it highly unlikely that Jeremiah would cease all intercession, in spite of his
prayers against his family at Anathoth, who conspired to slay him. He is known
as the weeping prophet for a reason.

Jeremiah 13:
15 Hear and give ear:
Do not be proud,
For the Lord has spoken.
16 Give glory to the Lord your God
Before He causes darkness,
And before your feet stumble
On the dark mountains,
And while you are looking for light,
He turns it into the shadow of death
And makes it dense darkness.
17 But if you will not hear it,
My soul will weep in secret for your pride;
My eyes will weep bitterly
And run down with tears,
Because the Lord’s flock has been taken captive.

Having said all this, it is naive to believe that the God of Love
is incapable of hate! Proverbs 6:16

 

[Minister Monardo]

God can be both severe and omnibenevolent. God's omnibenevolence is observed in His provision that I described in Post 254. He is severe to those who reject Christ's atonement - but that is their choice.

Romans 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity;
but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

 

[biblelesson]

So the Lord said to me, “Do not pray for the welfare of this people. When they fast, I am not going to listen to their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and grain offering, I am not going to accept them. Rather I am going to make an end of them by the sword, famine and pestilence.”
— Jeremiah 14:11-12

God commanded Jeremiah to not pray for the people. That violates what I’ve seen some argue as God being all-loving.

Jeremiah was a prophet who God used to pronounce Israel’s destruction for their disobedience. God gave Israel chance after chance, forgiveness after forgiveness, even when they sought other Gods to worship, and basically turned their backs on Him. They turned away from God’s love, so God finally said no more. They went whoring serving other Gods. One example is in Judges 2:11-23 KJV, but there are many more examples in the Bible.
Tell me, if your wife/husband went whoring over and over again, and each time you forgave, she/he did it again, and again, and said “if you don’t forgive me, you don’t love me.” What would do? Let him/her return to you once again to step on your love and kindness? How many times would you put yourself through this? Not many times, right? Well God forgave Israel hundreds of times because He DID love them. They hurt Him. He has a heart also!

We have to understand what we are reading and we have to know the history of Israel and God’s dealing with them.

First of all God loves Israel, and will always love Israel. However at that time in Jeremiah 14:11-12 KJV, Israel was being punished for their long century disobedience. So, no more praying for them at that time because prayer would not change God’s mind; He was fed up and was pronouncing their punishment.

They had moved God to jealous and anger over their false Gods, Deuteronomy 32:21 KJV, “They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.”

Isaiah 5:1-7 KJV, gives a good explanation, although there are many scriptures explaining why God punished Israel.

But today we are forgiven in Christ Jesus, we are under grace - a testament of God’s love for mankind; and are told to pray for people, even our enemies.

 

[John Mullally]

Romans 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity;
but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

I am fully aware of that passage as I also quoted it in Post 254. What is your argument?

 

[Minister Monardo]

I am fully aware of that passage as I also quoted it in Post 254. What is your argument?

Sorry, I missed it. Not here for an argument, my post was in support.

 

[Hammster]

God can be both severe and omnibenevolent. God's omnibenevolence is observed in His provision that I described in Post 254. He is severe to those who reject Christ's atonement - but that is their choice.

God takes no glory in anyone going to Hell. In fact, it makes God sad (Ezekiel 18:32; 33:11). It’s not God’s will (1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9), but at the same time, He chooses not to force His love on anyone. He lets people perish, just as reluctantly as the father of the prodigal son reluctantly allowed his son to leave. That’s a very different version of Christianity than Calvinism, in which Calvin depicts God as creating people to go Hell for His glory.

Do you know what Omni means?

 

[Hammster]

The Lord tests the resolve of His servants, and their commitment to the Congregation.

What about the rest?

 

[Hammster]

Jeremiah was a prophet who God used to pronounce Israel’s destruction for their disobedience. God gave Israel chance after chance, forgiveness after forgiveness, even when they sought other Gods to worship, and basically turned their backs on Him. They turned away from God’s love, so God finally said no more. They went whoring serving other Gods. One example is in Judges 2:11-23 KJV, but there are many more examples in the Bible.
Tell me, if your wife/husband went whoring over and over again, and each time you forgave, she/he did it again, and again, and said “if you don’t forgive me, you don’t love me.” What would do? Let him/her return to you once again to step on your love and kindness? How many times would you put yourself through this? Not many times, right? Well God forgave Israel hundreds of times because He DID love them. They hurt Him. He has a heart also!

We have to understand what we are reading and we have to know the history of Israel and God’s dealing with them.

First of all God loves Israel, and will always love Israel. However at that time in Jeremiah 14:11-12 KJV, Israel was being punished for their long century disobedience. So, no more praying for them at that time because prayer would not change God’s mind; He was fed up and was pronouncing their punishment.

They had moved God to jealous and anger over their false Gods, Deuteronomy 32:21 KJV, “They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.”

Isaiah 5:1-7 KJV, gives a good explanation, although there are many scriptures explaining why God punished Israel.

But today we are forgiven in Christ Jesus, we are under grace - a testament of God’s love for mankind; and are told to pray for people, even our enemies.

How does God’s love extend to these?

How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones
Against the rock.
— Psalm 137:9

 

[Minister Monardo]

What about the rest?

What about them? Could you clarify what you are asking.
I thought I made myself reasonably clear.
I was comparing Moses reaction to being told
"step aside while I consume this congregation in a moment"
Instead, Moses falls on his face and intercedes.
As a point of comparison, I expressed my view that Jeremiah
would not have ceased from interceding, even after the Lord
tells Him, in essence, "I don't want to hear it".
The first example of intercession was made by Abraham
for Sodom...50 righteous? 5 less than 50? 40?30?20?10?
Ever wonder what would have happened if he had gone down to 1?
Since an angel evacuated Lot, the result would probably have been the same.
The point being the tireless nature of intercession. Remember David's
tireless intercession for Bathsheba's child?

 

[biblelesson]

How does God’s love extend to these?

How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones
Against the rock.
— Psalm 137:9

We have to see the whole context of God’s word. We can’t just use one liners.

The scripture Psalm 137:9 KJV is speaking of Esau who is Jacob’s brother. They were brothers but different nations. Jacob received the blessing, not Esau. Jacob who had 12 sons, God changed his name to Israel, thus you get the twelve tribes of Israel, God’s chosen people.

At a time when Israel was being taken into captivity, Esau also became part of their persecution, and captured some of his brothers and handed them over to the enemy; and helped themselves to Israel’s heritage and land, Obadiah 10-14 KJV.

So Psalm 137:9 is speaking of Esau receiving punishment for what they did to Israel, which Obadiah foretells Esau will receive their punishment during the end times when Christ returns. They will be part of those nations that Jesus will destroy during the war of Armageddon. The reason for this is, Obadiah is explaining the people of Edom (Esau) who took the land from Israel, are “drinking on God’s Holy mountain” which does not belong to them. Esau stole Jerusalem from his brother Jacob and will still be in the land when Christ returns, so this is the time God will deal with what Esau has done, Obadiah 15-21 KJV. Vs 21 speaks of saviors judging the mount of Esau letting us know this will be at Christ’s return.

So, this will be a joyous time for Israel to receive back their land Jerusalem and their heritage; but it will be a terrible time for Esau, because they will be destroyed.

Under the old testament when God sent Israel to war with some of the nations, to include Esau, they would dash children, and women to pieces because these nations worshiped other God’s. Although we are no longer under the Old Testament, those who are not in Christ will be treated the same as these nations.

The Old Testament shows God’s judgment for sin straight out. But the New Testament shows God’s grace, mercy, love and forgiveness for sin.

To understand Psalm 137:9 KJV better, read up on Esau, and Edom (the land of Esau). Read all of the book of Obadiah 1-21 KJV

 

[John Mullally]

Do you know what Omni means?

Of course I understand what Omni means. This is a Theology forum - expect others to be thoughtful and intelligent - realize that there is going to be intelligent contention, In light of that it would be helpful if you were specific on your objections as opposed to your habit of making curt dismissive one-liner replies and issuing these kinds of questions.

In answer to what I think you really are challenging: God can be both benevolent and severe with the same person as due to justice what starts out as benevolence can switch to severity.

To reduce the wasteful back and forth, please also review my posts 254, 258, and 262 before responding. And if you do respond be respectful and specific on your objection - as that would be a refreshing change. I don't like guessing games. Again God sees all.

 

[Hammster]

What about them? Could you clarify what you are asking.
I thought I made myself reasonably clear.
I was comparing Moses reaction to being told
"step aside while I consume this congregation in a moment"
Instead, Moses falls on his face and intercedes.
As a point of comparison, I expressed my view that Jeremiah
would not have ceased from interceding, even after the Lord
tells Him, in essence, "I don't want to hear it".
The first example of intercession was made by Abraham
for Sodom...50 righteous? 5 less than 50? 40?30?20?10?
Ever wonder what would have happened if he had gone down to 1?
Since an angel evacuated Lot, the result would probably have been the same.
The point being the tireless nature of intercession. Remember David's
tireless intercession for Bathsheba's child?

The rest of humanity. Too often in these discussions, it’s about how God treats Israel. Was God loving towards those who perished in the flood? Or Sodom? Or the enemies of Israel when God commanded that even women and children be killed?

 

[Hammster]

We have to see the whole context of God’s word. We can’t just use one liners.

The scripture Psalm 137:9 KJV is speaking of Esau who is Jacob’s brother. They were brothers but different nations. Jacob received the blessing, not Esau. Jacob who had 12 sons, God changed his name to Israel, thus you get the twelve tribes of Israel, God’s chosen people.

At a time when Israel was being taken into captivity, Esau also became part of their persecution, and captured some of his brothers and handed them over to the enemy; and helped themselves to Israel’s heritage and land, Obadiah 10-14 KJV.

So Psalm 137:9 is speaking of Esau receiving punishment for what they did to Israel, which Obadiah foretells Esau will receive their punishment during the end times when Christ returns. They will be part of those nations that Jesus will destroy during the war of Armageddon. The reason for this is, Obadiah is explaining the people of Edom (Esau) who took the land from Israel, are “drinking on God’s Holy mountain” which does not belong to them. Esau stole Jerusalem from his brother Jacob and will still be in the land when Christ returns, so this is the time God will deal with what Esau has done, Obadiah 15-21 KJV. Vs 21 speaks of saviors judging the mount of Esau letting us know this will be at Christ’s return.

So, this will be a joyous time for Israel to receive back their land Jerusalem and their heritage; but it will be a terrible time for Esau, because they will be destroyed.

Under the old testament when God sent Israel to war with some of the nations, to include Esau, they would dash children, and women to pieces because these nations worshiped other God’s. Although we are no longer under the Old Testament, those who are not in Christ will be treated the same as these nations.

The Old Testament shows God’s judgment for sin straight out. But the New Testament shows God’s grace, mercy, love and forgiveness for sin.

To understand Psalm 137:9 KJV better, read up on Esau, and Edom (the land of Esau). Read all of the book of Obadiah 1-21 KJV

Besides the fact that this isn’t what the psalm is about, how is God’s so-called omnibenevolence shown to those little ones dashed upon the rocks?

 

[Hammster]

Of course I understand what Omni means. This is a Theology forum - expect others to be thoughtful and intelligent - realize that there is going to be intelligent contention, In light of that it would be helpful if you were respectful and specific on your objections as opposed to your habit of making curt dismissive one-liner replies and issuing insulting inane questions. Buck up, you are on staff, thus you represent: so it is even more imperative that you treat others as you would like to be treated. Also God judges.

In answer to what I think you really are challenging: God can be both benevolent and severe with the same person as due to justice what starts out as benevolence can switch to severity.

To reduce the wasteful back and forth, please also review my posts 254, 258, and 262 before responding. And if you do respond be specific on your objection - as that would be a refreshing change - as I don't like guessing games.

You say you know what Omni means, but your posts don’t actually read that what. So let me ask this. How is God loving to those people in Canaan who were wiped out? Or those in Sodom who were destroyed? Or those who perished in the flood?

 

[biblelesson]

Besides the fact that this isn’t what the psalm is about, how is God’s so-called omnibenevolence shown to those little ones dashed upon the rocks?

Yes the psalm is speaking of Edom. Edom and Esau are the same.

Psalm 137:7-9 KJV
7 Remember, O Lord, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof.

8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.

9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

 

[Minister Monardo]

The rest of humanity. Too often in these discussions, it’s about how God treats Israel. Was God loving towards those who perished in the flood? Or Sodom? Or the enemies of Israel when God commanded that even women and children be killed?

What comes up in these discussions I mostly find irrelevant. I serve a Holy God of Justice, and see no conflict with John proclaiming "God is Love", and accepting the requirements of how that same God of Love acts toward those who hold Him in contempt by rejecting the offer of forgiveness that could only be obtained by the sacrifice of His Son to meet the required standards of His holiness. Jesus made it clear that there are those who will choose darkness over light. I accept His judgment as Just. As David Crowder wrote in a song "He is Jealous for me".
Ex 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

 

[bling]

You’ll need to reword this.

Sure. He’s providential.

No. There were many saved before Jacob.

Yes, because you cannot be saved apart from the gospel.

Jonah 4:10 But the Lord said, “You have been concerned about this plant, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. 11 And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left—and also many animals?”

Was God concerned for some Gentiles in Nineveh, enough for some to be saved?

 

[Hammster]

Yes the psalm is speaking of Edom.

Psalm 137:7-9 KJV
7 Remember, O Lord, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof.

8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.

9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

That’s not our end times, though.